2 minutes ago, Culture Is Lit said:

Middle Eastern politics isn't a game—real human lives and consequences are at stake. And once again, your arguments cross a dangerous line from political criticism into a collective dehumanization, which ultimately undermines the very human rights framework you claims to defend.

If the goal is understanding or justice, the conversation has to stay consistent: apply the same standards of scrutiny to all historical claims, avoid collective blame, and distinguish between governments, ideologies, and civilians. It's also important to acknowledge that both sides are and can be complicit in this specific given context.

Those who left or had to escape the Middle East due to human rights abuses aren't looking for validation or approval from progressive or Western audiences. These are, unfortunately, lived experiences under countries with religious-fascist dictatorships. A country that polices women's bodies by enforcing things such as the mandatory hijab and so forth is something that you won't ever have to experience unless you lived in the Middle East. A country that legalizes child marriage is something you clearly don't seem to care about. A country that kills 30,000+ people in two days doesn't seem to bother you at all. There's already a long history of African and Middle Eastern struggles being underreported, oversimplified, or framed through selective bias and false narratives in Western media. Why should I expect someone living in the comfort of their home in New Jersey, who has never been to the Middle East nor who seems to be willing to educate themselves to fully grasp the realities of humanitarian crises going on in North Africa and the Middle East, that they clearly haven't researched or experienced?

I even explained how women in Iran have faced serious repression, including punishment and even death in cases tied to compulsory hijab enforcement. And instead of engaging with that reality and even showing an ounce of empathy, you resort to minimizing that pain and struggle by reframing it through political labels rather than addressing the human impact.

This isn't about denying anyone else's suffering—it's about asking for consistency, attention, and serious engagement with human rights abuses wherever they occur. I highly suggest you read about Arab nationalism and earlier Islamic conquests —including the Arab-Islamic expansions beginning in the 6th and 7th centuries—and what they did or were accused of doing through rape, slavery, torture, ethnic cleaning and more, etc. These are facts, grounded in the history of the 6th and 7th century Middle East, whose political, religious, and cultural ideologies are echoed today. Yes, it may be uncomfortable or difficult to fully grasp, but it reflects a shared reality and a common concern among those in the Middle Eastern community, centered on human life and basic having basic decency. And just as I can be American and hold my own government accountable, I can also be Arab and critically condemn actions taken by governments in my ancestral region.

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@PenguinTim Do we get one 11 like on other forums' rates? I know the song I need to give my 11 to.

BjorkIsMyMom is typing…

If I have seriously triggered anyone with my discussions, please know that it is not my motivation and I apologize if it came off that way.

aespa has zero zionists, zero pedos, and zero atrl dupe accounts, why?

Ok, now ATLRers

what you are not going to come for my "paragraphs" when mutha fathas up in here writing whole chat GPT dissertations and ain't got no purpose.

21 minutes ago, slw84 said:

Ok, now ATLRers

what you are not going to come for my "paragraphs" when mutha fathas up in here writing whole chat GPT dissertations and ain't got no purpose.

@KFC

26 minutes ago, Sheep said:

aespa has zero zionists, zero pedos, and zero atrl dupe accounts, why?

yeah, but one member who said nig—

37 minutes ago, BjorkIsMyMom said:

If I have seriously triggered anyone with my discussions, please know that it is not my motivation and I apologize if it came off that way.

Just now, Rian said:

yeah, but one member who said nig—

*allegedly mouthed it on accident

3 minutes ago, Bussea said:

@KFC

You are keeping up mess, mmm mmm mmm

Ban them both and be done with it! There, we solved it

8 minutes ago, Bussea said:

@KFC

I was expecting that downvote to be @KFC tbh

Honestly I kinda wish all these MJ threads were all one megathread. It's all blurring together

3 hours ago, Kabrona said:

Only in Atrl you will see people arguing about Michael Jackson and Zionism in the same fight

Girl I'm so lost

2 hours ago, Culture Is Lit said:

You're arguing against identity essentialism while simultaneously reducing millions of people into a singular fascist caricature. That contradiction undermines your entire point.

Opposing the actions of the Israeli government, condemning war crimes on both sides, or advocating for Palestinian liberation does not require advocating for the "eradication" of an entire national identity.

Historically, the idea of a distinct modern Palestinian national identity developed literally in the 20th century alongside the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, British colonial rule, Arab and Islamic nationalism, and later the Arab-Israeli conflict. Prior to that, Arabs living in the region identified more broadly through regional identities tied to places like Syria, Greater Syria (Bilad al-Sham), or the wider Arab world rather than through a fully separate nation-state identity as understood today. The territory itself was ruled for centuries by larger empires — Ottoman, then British — and was not an independent sovereign Palestinian state. During the early 20th century, many political figures and movements in the region openly discussed concepts like "Greater Syria," which included present-day Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel/Palestine as part of one broader geographic and cultural region. Jordan itself was also originally part of the British Mandate territory before being separated into Transjordan. That's also why it's historically inaccurate to claim the conflict has always simply been "Palestine versus outsiders." The borders, identities, and national movements in the region evolved over time and were shaped by colonial partition, wars, Arab nationalism, as well as Jewish nationalism, displacement, and competing political aspirations. None of this erases Palestinian identity, however it does challenge the narrative that there was always a fully independent Palestinian nation-state identical to how modern activists often portray it today.

There are currently around 50 Muslim-majority nations and well over 100 Christian-majority nations across the world. By contrast, there is only one Jewish-majority state. At the same time, Jewish people are such a small minority globally, making up literally 0.2% of the world's population.

The existence of a nation with a religious, ethnic, or cultural majority is not unusual in global history or modern geopolitics. Many countries were founded around shared national, linguistic, cultural, or religious identities while still containing diverse minority populations within them. Israel being a Jewish-majority nation does not automatically equate to ethnic cleansing or genocide any more than Muslim-majority or Christian-majority countries inherently do. Millions of Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Druze, Bedouins, and other minority groups live within Israel in peace and participate in public life, vote, work, attend universities, and serve in government, medicine, law, media, and the judiciary, including hosting pride events for the Middle East. However, minority groups do face discrimination, legal inequality, and in certain cases serious human rights abuses in countries under Sharia Law such as Iran or even in Palestine under the Hamas charter.

Criticizing governments and policies is fair game in any democracy. But reducing the existence of the world's only Jewish-majority country to "fascism" or claiming its people must lose their identity entirely is not a serious or consistent standard when viewed in a global context. Once you move from criticizing a state and its policies to declaring that an entire people's identity should cease to exist, you stop making a humanist argument and start engaging in collective dehumanization.

Also, the Rhodesia comparison falls apart under scrutiny. Rhodesia was a colonial minority regime denying political rights to the Black majority. Israeli and Palestinian histories are far more complex, involving competing national movements, displacement, terrorism, occupation, regional wars, and generations of civilians born into the conflict on both sides. Flattening that into "all Israelis are genocidal ethnonationalists" is rhetoric, not analysis.

People can oppose both Hamas and the Israeli government's actions in Gaza. People can mourn Palestinian civilians while also recognizing that millions of Israeli civilians are not interchangeable with their government. Human rights are not conditional on whether someone fits your political framework. And comparing ordinary Israelis to Germans passively watching the Holocaust while simultaneously advocating for the destruction of "Israeli" identity is not morally clarifying — it's inflammatory absolutism that treats entire populations as politically disposable. That kind of rhetoric does not move people toward peace, liberation, or justice. It entrenches hatred further.

Like I said, the Middle East and North Africa is not a single story, and no group of people is monolithic. There are serious and well-documented human rights abuses across multiple countries and regimes in the region, and those deserve consistent condemnation regardless of ideology or politics. At the same time, it is inaccurate and harmful to generalize entire populations or movements as uniquely evil or responsible for every atrocity attributed to them.

If we care about human rights, the standard has to be consistent: criticize governments and armed groups where they commit abuses, but avoid turning that criticism into blanket judgments about entire peoples or identities. That's the only way discussions like this stay grounded in reality rather than turning into dehumanization.

21 minutes ago, Sheep said:

*allegedly mouthed it on accident

me when jessica’s parts come on for early snsd

35 minutes ago, Rush said:

giving

Could we get a banner for the most streamed female album in history ? The Ones that got the Plays by Katy Perry !

8 minutes ago, Yes, AND said:

Could we get a banner for the most streamed female album in history ? The Ones that got the Plays by Katy Perry !

We don’t support artists who work with sexual assaulters

@Rian can you check my PM plz

1 hour ago, Gov Hooka said:

Of course, you can't read.

But yes, free Palestine and all the other countries or peoples living under occupation, oppression, or under the influence of violent proxy forces. Thank you.

Edited May 15May 15 by Culture Is Lit

38 minutes ago, Yes, AND said:

Could we get a banner for the most streamed female album in history ? The Ones that got the Plays by Katy Perry !

Nobody cares so no.

3 hours ago, Yes, AND said:

Could we get a banner for the most streamed female album in history ? The Ones that got the Plays by Katy Perry !

My fellow atrl 2010s alumnus, does anyone know if @DitaDolla is still here or rebranded?

What an iconic, but messy era

Enough with these ChatGPT generated responses and back and forths.

& f*ck MJ

/endthread

Edited May 15May 15 by Sombre