1 hour ago, Bloo said:

Not sure why this is in response to my post. It's a separate conversation from what I was discussing.

 

But I don't think this is a fair point. What you're describing, the push for meat substitutes that resemble meat is not exclusive to veganism. It is driven by people who used to consume meat that are converting to vegan or vegetarian diets. If you enjoyed eating a Big Mac or a hotdog before converting to either a vegetarian or vegan diet, you're likely to enjoy a plant-based version of that that scratches that itch that you've developed and liking for. If you grew up Hindu and never ate meat and never developed a palette for a hotdog, then of course these meat substitutes aren't to your liking, but you're also not the intended audience. It's for people that used to eat meat and enjoy the flavor and texture but want to commit to reducing their meat consumption. That's not a bad thing. Framing it as exclusive to the vegan diet makes no sense. The example I brought up provides the same food for both diets with the only difference being they have dairy and non-dairy cheese.

 

Saying that people who want to eat less meat should just eat meat is a strange argument when meat substitutes are environmentally friendlier and also do not exploit animals. Nobody going for a plant-based hotdog is doing so for health. They're doing it because they enjoy the flavor and maybe want to enjoy social outings where hotdogs are commonly eaten. Similarly, the fact that we have gluten free flours to make cake is great for those with gluten allergies that want to enjoy eating cake at events or just for pleasure. Not every dietary decision is based on health.

 

I responded to you because your post appeared to conflate veganism with vegetarianism and "plant-based" diets. They are not all the same thing and that is relevant to what you were discussing. Veganism is the most extreme form of the three. You also allege that "nothing" is going wrong with the veganism movement and I disagree. Some other posters have made good points on why it is not as popular as it could be or why it is being questioned by some, as opposed to simply being vegetarian or just reducing meat consumption in a sustainable way.

 

I also disagree on your point about "fake meat" products and veganism not being intrinsically linked. It is a major factor in veganism, for some of the reasons (environmental, ethical, palate) you've mentioned yourself. I'm not sure you can have a conversation about veganism without discussing "fake meat" products, as it is commonly touted as a mainstay of the diet, particularly for protein intake purposes. 

 

But that focus is coming at the expense of choice for significant groups of people who want to enjoy a meat-free lifestyle without the meat mimicry or consuming ultra-processed foods, which typically are also more expensive as a result of the additional processing and can have health concerns. Eating less or eliminating meat in the diet is a win for Earth from any angle yes, but the over-focus on "fake meat" (primarily to please meat-eating converters) can be problematic in the face of that. 

 

Going to such lengths to heavily engineer and develop ultra-processed alternatives to resemble meat, will impact the maximum environmental, health or ethical benefits that could be obtained and seems somewhat hypocritical when vegetables are literally right there and can be cultivated and cooked (without processing them beyond recognition) far more cheaply and more accessibly to more people, if that truly is the aim. If you're giving up meat, what's wrong with eating vegetables without overly processing them to resemble meat? It goes back to what other posters have said about hypocrisy.

 

The message of "veganism" itself is often confused and this is contributing to those turning against it. 

 

23 minutes ago, Zack said:

I responded to you because your post appeared to conflate veganism with vegetarianism and "plant-based" diets. They are not all the same thing and that is relevant to what you were discussing.

I never suggested they were the same thing. I acknowledged that these diets all exist and I believe they're all becoming more common with time. If I thought they were the same thing, I wouldn't have bothered to list all three of them.

 

Quote

Veganism is the most extreme form of the three. You also allege that "nothing" is going wrong with the veganism movement and I disagree. Some other posters have made good points on why it is not as popular as it could be or why it is being questioned by some, as opposed to simply being vegetarian or just reducing meat consumption in a sustainable way.

I stated nothing is "going wrong" with veganism because I don't believe its prevalence is declining. In the states, its prominence is rising especially when broken down by generations:

 

 

Quote

I also disagree on your point about "fake meat" products and veganism not being intrinsically linked. It is a major factor in veganism, for some of the reasons (environmental, ethical, palate) you've mentioned yourself. I'm not sure you can have a conversation about veganism without discussing "fake meat" products, as it is commonly touted as a mainstay of the diet, particularly for protein intake purposes. 

 

But that focus is coming at the expense of choice for significant groups of people who want to enjoy a meat-free lifestyle without the meat mimicry or consuming ultra-processed foods, which typically are also more expensive as a result of the additional processing and can have health concerns. Eating less or eliminating meat in the diet is a win for Earth from any angle yes, but the over-focus on "fake meat" (primarily to please meat-eating converters) can be problematic in the face of that. 

 

Going to such lengths to heavily engineer and develop ultra-processed alternatives to resemble meat, will impact the maximum environmental, health or ethical benefits that could be obtained and seems somewhat hypocritical when vegetables are literally right there and can be cultivated and cooked (without processing them beyond recognition) far more cheaply and more accessibly to more people, if that truly is the aim. If you're giving up meat, what's wrong with eating vegetables without overly processing them to resemble meat? It goes back to what other posters have said about hypocrisy.

 

The message of "veganism" itself is often confused and this is contributing to those turning against it. 

I feel like you are missing my very simple point. The rise of fake meat is not exclusive to veganism. Vegetarians also consume it; I also consume and I'm neither. The growing prominence of fake meat is not exclusive to the vegan movement. That's the entire point.

 

As for the rest of your points, a whole food plant diet that doesn't incorporate fake meat is healthier than a vegan, vegetarian, or plant-based diet that incorporates them. I never suggested otherwise. But, fake meat is not for people who want to eat healthily or never ate meat to begin with. People eat fake meat because it fills a cultural culinary role that meat plays for many people. Eliminating fake meat entirely is not helpful. It's an option that lowers the barrier of entry for people who are accustomed to eating meat in order to make the switch.

 

If people want to continue to transition away from them and eat more whole foods like beans, legumes, and other plant proteins, then great. But, unless you provide actual numbers to suggest that plant-based meat substitutes are reducing the ability of people to make the switch, then I'm not inclined to carry on this debate.

People don't care enough to give up food that tastes good to them

On 2/5/2025 at 9:33 PM, Bloo said:

I never suggested they were the same thing. I acknowledged that these diets all exist and I believe they're all becoming more common with time. If I thought they were the same thing, I wouldn't have bothered to list all three of them.

 

I stated nothing is "going wrong" with veganism because I don't believe its prevalence is declining. In the states, its prominence is rising especially when broken down by generations:

Listing and knowing they exist is not the same as understanding the nuances between them. Vegetarianism has always been more popular and more common for example and, as other posters have pointed out, has not been subject to some of the perceptional or functional difficulties of veganism, which have been contributing to its lack of traction. 

 

Data from Gallup (a leading U.S. analytics multinational company) contradicts the data you are citing and particularly demonstrates that (as is the case in many markets) veganism has failed to gain notable traction in the U.S. specifically in the period 2018-2023 and has actually been falling in prominence, more than vegetarianism, which is more prevalent among major populations, including specifically in the U.S. This suggests an issue that is specific to veganism more than other meat-free diets: 

 

 

On 2/5/2025 at 9:33 PM, Bloo said:

I feel like you are missing my very simple point. The rise of fake meat is not exclusive to veganism. Vegetarians also consume it; I also consume and I'm neither. The growing prominence of fake meat is not exclusive to the vegan movement. That's the entire point.

I think you've missed the nuance of the point I was making. It is not that fake meat is "exclusive" to veganism, it is that veganism is (for better or worse) a (or *the*) major driver behind the push toward fake meat as the default in the meat-free space, for the reasons I stated previously. Vegans are also substantial consumers of it, unless you are trying to state that is not the case.

 

On 2/5/2025 at 9:33 PM, Bloo said:

As for the rest of your points, a whole food plant diet that doesn't incorporate fake meat is healthier than a vegan, vegetarian, or plant-based diet that incorporates them. I never suggested otherwise. But, fake meat is not for people who want to eat healthily or never ate meat to begin with. People eat fake meat because it fills a cultural culinary role that meat plays for many people. Eliminating fake meat entirely is not helpful. It's an option that lowers the barrier of entry for people who are accustomed to eating meat in order to make the switch.

It would be interesting to see the data you have which states people who eat "fake meat" do not ever consider their health when making that choice. In the vegan space, my understanding is that health is one of (if not the) most common reasons for transitioning to veganism (or meat-free diets in general), which is why I stated that the large push within veganism toward ultra-processed fake meat products is contradictory to that and thus, one reason why things might have gone wrong with its adoption more recently.

 

In addition, further data from Gallup indicates that a greater number of people actually would rather eliminate meat entirely or substitute with vegetables, than eat fake meat replacements, which is telling and goes against your points. It does not seem to be aiding the prevalence or uptake of veganism long term, which is also my point:

 

 

On 2/5/2025 at 9:33 PM, Bloo said:

If people want to continue to transition away from them and eat more whole foods like beans, legumes, and other plant proteins, then great. But, unless you provide actual numbers to suggest that plant-based meat substitutes are reducing the ability of people to make the switch, then I'm not inclined to carry on this debate.

There is clear data showing veganism in particular is failing to gain traction in the longer term. This was the question posed by the thread and there is data to support that, contrary to what you suggest. 

 

Even if you ignore the sources of data showing the decline and focus only on the points you've made about fake meat, trends are showing people are actively disengaging or increasingly disinclined to consume it. The largest producers of fake meat products are suffering downturns and discontinuing products. There is data to support this. Your suggestions that vegans are not the primary drivers of the fake meat market and it is "growing in prominence" are at odds with data available. Tellingly, the fake meat market has been declining of late, in parallel with the decline of veganism and engagement with it is slowing in general. It is not the gateway you are suggesting it is (and this is an issue affecting veganism). 

 

 

Whilst the average number of vegans may be increasing in some locales, the overall prevalence of it is stagnant or in decline, such as in the U.S., compared with other dietary patterns including vegetarianism which remains far more popular. Circling back to the original point, something is therefore going wrong with veganism.  

 

Couple the above data with the very valid points other posters have made here, about the obvious hypocrisies in many factions of veganism which may be accelerating the trend downward, we will have to agree to disagree. 

 

Edited February 6, 20251 yr by Zack

It's just not realistic. Replacing meat, honey, eggs etc with artificial stuff that resembles their taste + taking pill supplements is pathetic, sad and mostly expensive.

 

Personally, I stopped consuming meat 10 years ago bc I became disgusted with how much I was craving it but that's the extent of my "veganism".

The creation of vegan ultra-processed food is where it went wrong

I think that actually if people had the time and money, more people would become vegan. I don't understand the bad rep vegetarians and vegans get, I think people see a few annoying ones online and then project that into real life but literally all vegans I've met irl were nice people that didn't push or shame anyone and I didn't even knew they were vegan/vegetarian until we had a meal together. It's their body, their choice, and I actually think that being vegan is a very noble thing to do.  I have heard from people around me that being vegan is very hard because it's very expensive due to rarity/scarcity and it's very time consuming since the person has to cook all of their food for themselves since vegan options are not very common in restaurants (vegetarian meals are common but vegan not so much).

I'm not and I personally think it's very hard because I see food as not just nutrition but a way to get pleasure, connect culturally and have fun with other people. Also I like animals but I guess I don't love them that much as to give up meat completely. I know being vegan is not just diet but a lifestyle but I do think it's the biggest factor that's why I'm talking about it.

1. It integrated into mainstream more, you don't have to be the vegan type like before. It's a lot more common today to be vegetarian or vegan, so it's not a "movement" in the same way anymore.

 

2. Eating vegan can be expensive and time consuming. You could also question the health benefits, since you maybe go out and buy all of these ultra-processed vegan alternatives, at least that's the norm in the West.

 

3. It's unrealistic that most people would go vegan, because it's restrictive. A lot of cultures have traditional dishes with meat and/or dairy, and food is an important socially gathering  element in all cultures worldwide, so you could potentially exclude yourself socially and culturally. 

it makes you gassy. 

Nothing? I mean it's still many people vegan

 

Just it's unrealistic to keep increasing massively every year, there's a ceiling

On 2/5/2025 at 10:27 AM, Arrows said:

The number one problem: lack of vegan proteins. It's literally just beans, peas and nuts, which doesn't get you very far.

Is it the 1970s? It's not hard to get protein

 

Let me give you an example

 

1 Cup of Oatmeal - 10.5 grams Protein

 

1/2 Cup Uncooked Brown Rice - 6.5 Grams

 

1/2 Cup Black Beans - 8 Grams

 

1 Cup Soy Milk - 8 Grams

 

2 Slices of Large Whole Wheat Bread - 10 Grams

 

2 Tablespoons Peanut Butter - 8 Grams

 

Add some fruit, vegetables and whatever else and you can get to 60 grams easily

 

42 minutes ago, Armani? said:

Is it the 1970s? It's not hard to get protein

 

Let me give you an example

 

1 Cup of Oatmeal - 10.5 grams Protein

 

1/2 Cup Uncooked Brown Rice - 6.5 Grams

 

1/2 Cup Black Beans - 8 Grams

 

1 Cup Soy Milk - 8 Grams

 

2 Slices of Large Whole Wheat Bread - 10 Grams

 

2 Tablespoons Peanut Butter - 8 Grams

 

Add some fruit, vegetables and whatever else and you can get to 60 grams easily

 

3 of those fall into the categories beans and nuts though, and the rest is grains. I don't even eat meat on most days, but there isn't that much diversity in vegan proteins.