I was thinking of this thread and this thread and I couldn't help but wonder.carrie.bradshaw, how do you measure a flop? In daylights? In sunsets? In Midnights.AOTY? In cups of coffee?

 

But in all seriousness, how do you measure a flop? Do you think about it in absolute terms? Or do you think context is important?

Are ARTPOP and 30 flops despite decent and strong stats respectively because they represent shocking decreases from their artists' previous eras? Is Cowboy Carter a commercial flop because of mediocre consumption or a roaring success because it was released by a female pop star over 40?

 

Despite 10 million worldwide units in less than 5 year, is evermore a flop because it's sandwiched between the commercial giants of folklore and Midnights? 
 

Are flops measured by the same objective criteria applied evenly to every artist or does context matter? 
 

Spoiler

For me, I'd say context matters but in a more complex way than just judging every artist on an individual scale. evermore, for instance, is lowkey a flop for Taylor standards, but it was still an enormous smash for a surprise alternative album with one real single released over the holiday season by an artist 15 years into her career. I'd also consider CC a success given Bey's time in the industry. ARTPOP and 30 skate a bit closer to flop territory for me because they represent such stark and sudden drops.

 

On a scale from 1 to 43

 

i usually use a ruler to measure it 

There's a law of statistical regression, and there's 143 and Something Beautiful. Everything regress back to the MEAN in the real world but in the MPG plane, it has a different mathematical structure 

everyone has a different standard for it depending on the artist is in question, how much they are liked and what narrative the average ATRLer wants to spin that day. but we can all universally agree on one FLOP without question. 

 

ARTPOP: a flop. Big decline of album sales from BTW (only 5m?units worldwide after 13 years) and didn't have any hit single, the tour is a flop compared with BTW tour as well. Didn't win any Grammy

30:  not a flop for me. Despite the decrease is obvious from 25, it still managed to pull a smash hit of the year and it's the year-end #1 album of IFPI.

evermore: definitely not a flop. As a surprise release and a side project of folklore, it has passed 10m units worldwide without any effort from both the artist and the label to push it.

CC: definitely not a flop. It won the artist's first AOTY and launched a huge tour, and the artist previous era was not very successful as well so there was barely regressed commercially.

Edited July 26, 20251 yr by HappierJealousy

context is important but can't explain away everything. brat is a success cos of its big cultural status and being a commercial breakthru compared to what went before but for another artist it wouldn't be a big deal, beyonce releases culturally big (and often very good) albums a lot that feel more like relative commercial flops compared to her heyday (tho arguably that's what she's more interested in doing now).

 

something like guts is basically a success but commercially it's coasting a little, it's not as all dominating as sour (tho it is better imo) so i don't think it's a flop but i half understand people calling it that, even if i think they're probably stanwarring a bit as well cos this is ATRL and everyone is always stanwarring a bit

 

143 is a flop cos it is but it some little act sold enough vinyl and cds to get their album to that chart position then they'd be doing pretty well etc

 

(nb: evermore is essentially a folklore: the b-sides album and no one really believes otherwise whatever they say, as such no it's not a flop, it's a minor record released very soon after a major record)

Edited July 26, 20251 yr by makeawish

The problem is that once an artist has the first 2-3 albums in the highest region of what is possible with sales and chart success, some people think the artist has to perform on this level… like forever?

 

Because if the 4th album is not at the high standard of the first 3, many quickly declare the album flopped. 
 

If the 4th album is still big like the first 3, but the fifth one is a decline, than this is a flop album. And so on.

 

But artists can't always hold for their entire career to a standard this high, so a new measurement must be agreed on. I would say at some point when stars get older, a 50% decline is respectable. 

I mean, it depends on the artist and the context. 

 

If Demi's next single goes somewhere like top 60, it'd be a hit for her because she comes from an era where she struggled to chart. But if someone like Gaga barely made it to the top 60, it'd be a flop. 

You see Bionic - this is a flop. Flopionic! Blop! Flonip! 

Streams only

Album sales are inflated by fans mass buying, bundles, and vynils.

That is capitalism not a real indicator of people playing the music.

That just shows a celebrity is big like a kardashian but not that people use the music 

Longevity, cultural conversations, memes, hearing it in public/bars, clubs, on the radio, friends and family knowing it, etc..

Pre 1995 acts:

not charting

biggest song of a new project below 10 million streams after 1 year.

 

Post 1995 acts:

not charting

biggest song of a new project below 100 million streams.

 

--special rules for acts of 2010-present --

not charting

biggest song of a new project below 2 billion streams

Album below 10 billion streams. (after 1 year)

 

Flop is anything that lost money. Both Artpop and 30 sold those shipped copies therefore not flops!

theres various scales

 

you have ARTPOP flops.

Something Beatiful and 143 level flops but even lower theres also This Is Me… Now and AGUILEIRA sized flops. It depends

 

Edited July 26, 20251 yr by KatyPrismSpirit

Something Beatiful - you had nr. 1 song, with Grammy, and then...you hate all your music, want tour and want do any promo! This is flop! 

if i dislike the artist it's a straight up flop

if not then it's an underperformance

ARTPOP has decent sales, good recurrent streams and is culturally relevant a decade later. A lot of major publications revisited the album recently and gave it good reviews. 

If ATRL absolutely loves it then it is most likely a flop 

57 minutes ago, makeawish said:

context is important

The only accurate answer 

evermore isn't a flop — and that's not just because it sold more than successful albums by other artists.

It's actually because it was released as a companion to folklore, without heavy promotion or the commercial ambitions typical of a Taylor Swift album. That context matters.

No presence/album/song charting on both Spotify and apple

 

When only the album is charting, it means the songs don't have replay value

 

when only one or two songs are charting, it means the public didn't resonate with the project. Which is why it's dumb for labels to pay for album ranking/placement

2 hours ago, KatyPrismSpirit said:

theres various scales

 

you have ARTPOP flops.

Something Beatiful and 143 level flops but even lower theres also This Is Me… Now and AGUILEIRA sized flops. It depends

 

143 is the floppiest flop of all time lmao. One thing to flop quietly with an album no one cared about and another to be ridiculed to the poiny tiktok flags your videos with anti-bullying protection. Be fr

48 minutes ago, Prodigal Self said:

143 is the floppiest flop of all time lmao. One thing to flop quietly with an album no one cared about and another to be ridiculed to the poiny tiktok flags your videos with anti-bullying protection. Be fr

flopping in quiet is far worse. it indicates that literally absolutely nobody cares anymore… how is that hard to comprehend

 

 

Edited July 26, 20251 yr by KatyPrismSpirit
typos oopz

16 minutes ago, KatyPrismSpirit said:

flopping is quiet is far worse. it indicates that literally absolutely nobody people cares anymore… how is that hard to comprehend 

ehh I'm sure Katy doesn't see it this way LMAO