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There's no point going back and forth with a propaganda infused zealot who is incapable of having an actual discussion and instead relies on clipping single sentences and straight up lying. Sometimes you still crawl under my skin enough to get one but I generally try to avoid you and your counterpart.
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I don't know what point you're trying to make. It's an expression that means it's basically the same thing.
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We've now reached the, "mass migration is good -> mass migration is bad but you deserve it -> mass migration is a US/Israel plot" part of the thread. Like, you can't make it up. Lunatics. Q-anon in a different color.
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And what does that matter to the people whose lives are being made worse by this? Maybe you believe that random citizens deserve it for some grievance politic that is the centerpiece of your beliefs but don't expect Europeans to agree with you that their lives and societies should be made worse as punishment. Again, that stance will only serve to embolden the far-right. So much of leftism is pseudo-academic slop. First "it's not making things worse" then it's "well, maybe it's making things worse but you deserve it, actually." Unfortunately for that line of thinking, these countries are democracies where y'all can't play out your fantasies of getting to be judge, jury, and executioner. No wonder there's so much glazing of authoritarian regimes, though. Additionally some of the worst offenders of colonialism and conquest are Arabic countries . To also imply that these countries have no fault to bear for their current human rights atrocities and living circumstances is a noble savage view the far-left loves. Somehow, literally everything, is the USA and Europe's fault.
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You are moving laterally here to try and find some sort of gotcha. That user's post was in the context of middle eastern immigration into Europe, not Spain specifically. And you're quite correct to imply the country of origin and its cultural similarities to the destination country, especially in terms of human rights, DOES matter! It is why the American response to immigration is much less rational. Not that there aren't problems created from illegal immigration in the USA (that is a different discussion), but most illegal immigrants to the USA are much closer culturally to the country they're attempting to enter and they assimilate much faster. Do you still get some homophobia/conservative values from that immigration? Sure. But the material harm is much less. For a group that endlessly yaps about material harm as a (still delusional) way to excuse imperialism from the totalitarian dictatorships they love, you can easily apply the same principles to mass migration. Accepting immigrants where the state sanctioned killing/arresting of gay people and shunning women from public life IS indeed worse than accepting immigrants from countries that don't have those cultural norms.
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It doesn't surprise me that you continue obfuscating the truth with ridiculous whataboutisms. No one is claiming that all immigrants are homophobic or that all Europeans are not. Unfortunately for you, as made plainly aware by the sentiment in this thread and the popular posts, people can see the impact of these policies with their own eyes. They can also track the impact of migration in Europe statistically in a variety of ways. It is not a racist dogwhistle to point out that in general immigrants from these countries and cultures come from cultural backgrounds that differ vastly from European countries. There is no country where it is illegal to have gay sex in Europe. There is not country where you can be arrested or put to death for being gay in Europe. The gulf with women's rights is even bigger. It's just such a ludicrous position that you cannot point out this incredibly obvious truth because you might be generalizing to some extent. Everything in politics is generalizing to some extent! Europeans are watching the culture clash every day. This is how you manipulate discussions on here. Any position out of absolute lockstep with you is unethical in some way. Here, you frame the opposition as racism and refuse to engage in any sort of good-faith way or to acknowledge that your absolutist path forward might not be feasible. Strangely, you hate when bad-faith criticism rooted in identity politics is turned on you in the American context.
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Personally, I have never understood this framing. It just reeks of whataboutism IMO. Honestly, where would you rather be as a gay person or a woman? Europe and the US? Or the countries where these immigrants are coming from? "The USA and Europe aren't perfect on women's issues and LGBTQ issues, so you can't criticize or be fearful of cultural practices that are objectively 100X worse and more deadly!" You see this argument tossed around so freely on here, and I just think it is complete rubbish. Drop the team sports aspect of this and holding the line and put all of us in a scenario where we had to choose where to live and what cultural norms would be around around us. I doubt anyone on this website would say, "Well, there's basically no difference!" There is, in fact, an enormous difference. Pretending otherwise is just absurd and it adds nothing to this discussion.
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What is the alternative? If your argument is that liberal parties can't moderate on immigration, then what? We are already seeing the results of unchecked migration across the continent both in day-to-day life and electorally. It has contributed directly to the rise of far-right extremist parties in Europe. If you don't believe in moderating immigration policy to deal with the problems it is causing and to contain an ever rising far-right sentiment, what then is the solution? That framing concedes a far-right takeover in Europe as virtually inevitable. These countries don't exist in a vacuum and are tightly interconnected. While moderating immigration policies hasn't squashed the far-right in Denmark, Denmark is a direct neighbor to countries that are letting the problem run wildly out of control. It's difficult to say definitively whether one country tightening immigration policy is enough to sway public sentiment when these countries are also locked into extremely close diplomatic and economic agreements with all their neighbors. As for a gradual move towards liberal values over time for immigrants, that is true. However, there are many high quality studies that showcase reactive religiosity in some groups of second generation immigrants who have more religious and conservative views than their parents. Regardless, I don't think "this problem may be sorted out in a few generations" is going to be a winning political strategy or do anything to alleviate the rising tide of the far-right OR the problems this is causing people right now. I'm thrilled that my grandchildren and great grandchildren might get to live in a pluralistic liberal society once more, but that doesn't do much for the concerns of women and LGBTQ people having to live right now. In my opinion, this will take some coordinated, collective action from Europe. Moderating on immigration policy also isn't solely motivated by curtailing the rising right wing — and for the record I still believe a collective moderation would ultimately yield that outcome, there are simply too many factors in this discussion to say that a couple of studies disprove that — it is also the right thing to do. These immigration policies have caused real, tangible issues that are affecting people's day-to-day lives and they are still getting worse. It will take longterm collective change to indicate whether moderation can help curtail the far-right. The problem simmered for a long time before we reached this point, it will take a long time to address. If nothing is done, the far-right seizing power in Europe is all but assured.
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As time goes on I think it's more and more clear to people at large (and even to people on this website which houses a sizable, extreme faction of users) that the faction of leftists defending this unconditionally are completely detached from reality. By opposing a truth that is plainly in front of all our faces, they continue allowing major openings for far-right extremism in Europe. This is an incredibly important issue across the continent. By refusing to acknowledge it and painting those who are concerned (extremely rational response) as racist bigots, they gift wrap voters for the far-right groups gaining power in Europe. This sums it up well. It is simply incredible to me that some leftists are gleeful to sacrifice women and LGBTQ people on the alter of insane and irrational support for terrible immigration policies. When your entire worldview is West = evil, non-west = good, you end up supporting some absolutely batshit and incredibly contradictory positions. I understand the impulse and desire to believe that allowing unlimited immigration from countries with vastly different cultural norms than Europe (which often include a rejection of basic human rights for LGBTQ people and women) will somehow be all sunshine and rainbows, but it's time to join the rest of us in reality. By sticking their heads in the sand and writing off any criticism of mass migration, leftists cede this issue to far-right extremists. And that is exactly what is happening! We already know that is the outcome. Time to come up with a more rational position if we don't want to yield European governments to these fanatical parties. It's also important to note that many European governments have done exactly what leftists told us would make mass migration a kumbaya experience. Surprise, surprise, those policies have been miserable failures.
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