#IWasHere. Sometimes I like to watch this video and overwhelm myself with emotions. Tate truly slayed.

Up next: T8Palooza

We don't talk enough about how much of a streaming elixir she is. Her major label debut was Aug 2019.

• 2020 - You broke me first - most-streamed solo female song of the year, 9th overall - All the things i never said - second most-streamed female EP of the year - That way - EP track with 652m streams, no radio or playlisting.

• 2021 - To young to be sad - Most-streamed female EP of the year, 8th including albums

• 2022 - She's all I wanna be 735m streams, top 20 hit across Europe - 10:35 822m streams, top 10 hit across Europe - IUTTICF 11th most-streamed female solo album of the year, 14th including groups

• 2023 - Greedy - 2nd Most-streamed female solo song of the year, 5th overall

• 2024 - IOIO - 569m (an underperformance in a year of many autoplay-inflated mega hits. RCA didn't write the check. But also most of the hits were suspiciously from UMG)

• 2025 - SCTW - 4th most streamed female album of the year - Sports car - 5th most streamed female solo song of the year - Just keep watching - 9th most streamed female solo song of the year - Revolving door- 11th most streamed female solo song of the year

I'm not sure why this site likes to cling to the delusion that she was flopping before greedy or she took forever to blow up when she came out swinging from day one. The dumb comparisons to Addison's debut as if her 2 EPs and 10:35 don't exist in her debut era. If she had pulled a Dua and added YMBF, that way, 10:35, Stupid and You to her debut, it'll have over 5b streams.

Also people drag her team for "wasting" her BNA submissions, but looking at her career numerically like this, she had a very solid case for a nomination in the 2021 eligibility period, and a less solid but still reasonable case in 2022. The only dumb submission was in the 2023 period, with 10:35 not making noise in US, and Greedy being released on the last day of eligibility. Her team not saving BNA and Greedy for the 2024 window is to date the WORST decision of her career.

4 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

I'm not sure why this site likes to cling to the delusion that she was flopping before greedy or she took forever to blow up when she came out swinging from day one. The dumb comparisons to Addison's debut as if her 2 EPs and 10:35 don't exist in her debut era. If she had pulled a Dua and added YMBF, that way, 10:35, Stupid and You to her debut, it'll have over 5b streams.

there's a consistency to her sleeper hits on streaming, once they take off they just keep going and i was surprised by how solid the streams are across the EPs, but there have definitely been flop eras (most notably after YBMF there's a few frankly bad loose singles like 'don't be sad') and the big thing this site will never understand is that there's a world outside america and the hot 100 (tho tbf that's always the big prize for everyone).

but i think that pre greedy she's only ever doing just enough to hang around and i'd like to have that really satisfying sensation that you get when you look at an album and see that all the songs have hit 100m, but i suspect that SCTW will get there in time

4 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

2024 - IOIO - 569m (an underperformance in a year of many autoplay-inflated mega hits. RCA didn't write the check. But also most of the hits were suspiciously from UMG)

honestly, and we've sort of already talked about this, but i found it a baffling lead single at the time and it still doesn't quite stack up for me, "buried on side 2 of the album" seems like exactly where this belonged.

i guess it makes more sense as a stopgap but even then, considering she was at a really important moment in her career and it's possibly the least good song on a really strong album, you'd think she'd have had something else in the bag at this point

3 hours ago, makeawish said:

there's a consistency to her sleeper hits on streaming, once they take off they just keep going and i was surprised by how solid the streams are across the EPs, but there have definitely been flop eras (most notably after YBMF there's a few frankly bad loose singles like 'don't be sad') and the big thing this site will never understand is that there's a world outside america and the hot 100 (tho tbf that's always the big prize for everyone).

but i think that pre greedy she's only ever doing just enough to hang around and i'd like to have that really satisfying sensation that you get when you look at an album and see that all the songs have hit 100m, but i suspect that SCTW will get there in time

I've blocked out don't be sad. Truly an awful song. TBF after YMBF, I wouldn't say she was in a flop era. YBMF was the promoted single for like a full year, and during its run, she was dropping a new song every 2 months, with zero promo, radio, or playlisting. I don't think the label was expecting any of those songs to be a hit, they were just meant to build her discography and keep the new YMBF fans engaged. Except for working with Khalid. That was definitely a flop. To date, it's one of her only songs to have a radio deal. I remember it getting massive updates the first week only to plummet on radio after. Her team definitely expected it to do something.

I always considered her debut as a flop era, and it was definitely an underperformance, but I've realised there was zero investment in the album. It had no chance to succeed. The era started off so strongly with the singles having more traction than any of her singles post YMBF. Then the album was DOA on release. Very limited physicals, no televised performances, no major interviews or promo. No festival slots. Even the tour was over a year after the album was released, and was only US dates. The only performances - MTV EMAs, Capital Summertime Ball, Junos and Wetten Daas, happened months after the album was released. I know she was meant to open for Shawn Mendes, which got cancelled, but there were zero plans for the album outside of that. I remember being so confused because even her 2nd EP had more promo than her debut. Looking at how albums like Midnight Sun and Addison were promoted relentlessly, even without much traction commercially, her debut was set up for failure.

4 hours ago, makeawish said:

honestly, and we've sort of already talked about this, but i found it a baffling lead single at the time and it still doesn't quite stack up for me, "buried on side 2 of the album" seems like exactly where this belonged.

IOIO was such an infuriating lead, it made me lose all remaining faith in RCA and so much hope in her career. In a year when so many girls were having mega moments with grand, infectious, individual hits, it's absolutely disgraceful that they would listen to IOIO and think that it was the right follow-up to compete with the it girls of the year.

4 hours ago, makeawish said:

i guess it makes more sense as a stopgap but even then, considering she was at a really important moment in her career

It doesn't even make sense as a stop gap. She was better off trying to promote hurt my feelings, guilty conscience, or run for the hills as a single, than releasing the mess that was IOIO.

4 hours ago, makeawish said:

it's possibly the least good song on a really strong album, you'd think she'd have had something else in the bag at this point

This, when I heard IOIO, all I could think was, she's in trouble if this is really the best they could come up with. That's the problem with her releasing singles while still working on the album. You have a scenario where 2 duds are released and the obvious hit is single 3 because it didn't exist when the lead was chosen. I hope for TM4 she has pens down, with the album fully mixed and mastered, before choosing singles so they can plan accordingly. But I know that's wishful thinking. She'll probably still be working on the album the night before release.

19 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

I always considered her debut as a flop era, and it was definitely an underperformance, but I've realised there was zero investment in the album. It had no chance to succeed. The era started off so strongly with the singles having more traction than any of her singles post YMBF. Then the album was DOA on release.

it charted surprisingly high here, only in the sense that it was in one week and out the next but it showed she had a fanbase. i think she's all i wanna be was starting to fade by then but the singles definitely built with each release and it does feel like it should have come out a bit earlier to meet the moment (this is possibly why think later felt pointlessly rush released in the end?)

but she was playing tiny venues around that, there are some excellent live clips from 2022 on youtube but they're from london kentish town forum which is the kind of place you'd have a middling indie band playing. six months after a top 20 single and with a consistent streaming hit still rolling on it feels more than a bit underwhelming

11 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

It doesn't even make sense as a stop gap. She was better off trying to promote hurt my feelings, guilty conscience, or run for the hills as a single, than releasing the mess that was IOIO.

we spent months in the think later thread bitching about them letting that album just die off on release, even the release date was ridiculous, like 2 weeks before christmas, why not just dig a shallow grave(mp3) and have done with it

i don't hate it's ok, it works better on the album as a bit of clatter in the 2d half but there's something slightly off about the speak/rapped chorus, it just doesn't suit her style. that said i thought 2 hands was terrific and would be a massive hit and it ended up being shaded as 2 streams so that shows what i know

Just now, makeawish said:

we spent months in the think later thread bitching about them letting that album just die off on release, even the release date was ridiculous, like 2 weeks before christmas, why not just dig a shallow grave(mp3) and have done with it

i don't hate it's ok, it works better on the album as a bit of clatter in the 2d half but there's something slightly off about the speak/rapped chorus, it just doesn't suit her style. that said i thought 2 hands was terrific and would be a massive hit and it ended up being shaded as 2 streams so that shows what i know

The think later era was so confusing because she was seemingly everywhere performing on every stage in the lead-up to the album. Then you have an album stupidly released during the Christmas freeze with no physicals, a few more performances in Q1 the next year, and then just nothing. Era completely abandoned with 2 singles, when an album track like run for the hills had so much juice. And after hearing some of the think later leaks, she should have done a deluxe and released SCTW q2 2025 for a summer smash album. Imagine a deluxe with just keep watching ft Tyla, siren sounds, IOIO, get what I want, girl gone cold, too good, bad things, little tight skirt. Speaking of the think later scraps, it's absolutely mind-boggling that songs like want that too, plastic palmtrees, messier calgary, grave even made the album over these scraps. She had more than enough material for the sexy dark pop album she was advertising. The fact that she's in a thong on the album cover of an album of mostly midtempos and ballads is so contradictory.

I don't hate IOIO. It's one of those songs that would have been loved as an album track, but as a lead single months before the album, it wasn't interesting enough to not burn out. I will stand on the fact that 2 hands while not a bad song, was never single-worthy. Also, I think there are elements of Rihanna's Umbrella buried in there, I wish the production leaned more prominently in that direction. Something about the production feels so busy and clunky.

5 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

Speaking of the think later scraps, it's absolutely mind-boggling that songs like want that too, plastic palmtrees, messier calgary, grave even made the album over these scraps. She had more than enough material for the sexy dark pop album she was advertising. The fact that she's in a thong on the album cover of an album of mostly midtempos and ballads is so contradictory.

the sleeve is ridiculous isn't it, they give her skin this weird rubbery look as well and it's hard not to think that no one took that seriously at all lmao

as for the songs, calgary and grave are i think really good but they're definitely safe choices. want that too and plastic palmtrees are a step too far in that direction tho, there are days when i can love them but they unbalance the album really badly at the end and also have this very weedy production, esp PPT where you can hear the seeds of a big climax and instead it just sort of limps along a bit and never quite gets there. messier is a better song but again it sounds slightly unfinished in places

i really loved think later at the time but i have to think that even the songs that are on there are not the best version of what they could have been. as much as people hate on the first album it's much more coherent and well produced than think later

1 minute ago, makeawish said:

the sleeve is ridiculous isn't it, they give her skin this weird rubbery look as well and it's hard not to think that no one took that seriously at all lmao

as for the songs, calgary and grave are i think really good but they're definitely safe choices. want that too and plastic palmtrees are a step too far in that direction tho, there are days when i can love them but they unbalance the album really badly at the end and also have this very weedy production, esp PPT where you can hear the seeds of a big climax and instead it just sort of limps along a bit and never quite gets there. messier is a better song but again it sounds slightly unfinished in places

i really loved think later at the time but i have to think that even the songs that are on there are not the best version of what they could have been. as much as people hate on the first album it's much more coherent and well produced than think later

Yeah the creative for think later was absolutely none existent. One thing her debut had going for it was consistent, coherent creative direction, even if it didn't feel authentic to her. The sexy, sporty, casual fashion they were going for in think later era was executed as sloppily and poorly as possible lol

The track listing for think later doesn't help make the album more balanced either. Going from hurt my feelings into grave and stay done then exes. Such whiplash. Also, as someone who listens to a lot of sad indie, folk, acoustic songs, the problem I have with most of her stripped-down sad songs is that they are so produced and processed they loose all intimacy which is the entire point of songs like that. I also think her storytelling isn't always nuanced enough to pull them off. How do you have a stripped guitar or piano song sound robotic? Most of the sad songs in think later are cute but kinda lack soul. Her debut has that too with songs like boy x, hate myself, but then you have feel like **** and chaotic, which still have some life and emotion in them.

I kinda cringe when her young fans claim her best song is boy x, want that too, nostalgia or some other basic ballad just to feel different. How do you truly believe that lol? Or they miss the sad girl Tate and wish she never rebranded when she could never sell the sad girl image as convincingly as Billie, Olivia, or oven Gracie.

That's why I'm so excited for TM4, I think her songwriting has matured, her pool of references has expanded and is more interesting. I think she's going to leave the y2k sexy baddie aesthetic behind and evolve into a more mature, understated, sultry kinda sexy. Ludovic seems to have a clear vision for her creative. I think she's also coming for a lush, mature, expensive-sounding and looking album, not the y2k pop banger people are expecting.

27 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

I also think her storytelling isn't always nuanced enough to pull them off. How do you have a stripped guitar or piano song sound robotic? Most of the sad songs in think later are cute but kinda lack soul.

stay done i really like - "i've been nothing less than cordial, but if we're really talking morals" is so jane austen coded - but i would absolutely take the point that it sounds like some sort of julia michaels acoustic demo, there's a very smooth production sheen on a lot of the slower material that feels a bit extra. but i like the melodramatic aspect of that one (and messier too), they're real "tate is in her big feelings and she's not going to let it go!" vibes. the thing i think that sticks across both those first two albums is that she has a consistent sad girl character that feels very authentic to her, you can almost hear her furiously scribbling the lyrics into her diary

31 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

I kinda cringe when her young fans claim her best song is boy x, want that too, nostalgia or some other basic ballad just to feel different. How do you truly believe that lol? Or they miss the sad girl Tate and wish she never rebranded when she could never sell the sad girl image as convincingly as Billie, Olivia, or oven Gracie

i love boy x but in a kind of "that's cute!" sort of way, esp the "she wrote him songs" bit, i can imagine it feeling very meaningful to the young fans while also coming off as cringe in a nice way (go away is the heads choice from the first album, a real alltimer). nostalgia - which again is terrific - really does show off the weaknesses in her doing that kind of song a lot tho, in that it's a great performance and melody but you get these slightly tacky cliches wandering in - it's a truckload of regrets and stupid mistakes - and there's a real sense that someone else would have written it better. but also, that's tate's style for better or worse and the fact that she can be a bit crap sometimes is one of the things i love about her lyrics, i tend to think "you can tell it's her cos if it was all ghostwritten then she wouldn't be singing that" lmao

44 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

That's why I'm so excited for TM4, I think her songwriting has matured, her pool of references has expanded and is more interesting. I think she's going to leave the y2k sexy baddie aesthetic behind and evolve into a more mature, understated, sultry kinda sexy. Ludovic seems to have a clear vision for her creative. I think she's also coming for a lush, mature, expensive-sounding and looking album, not the y2k pop banger people are expecting.

yeah i see it following on from tracks like horseshoe and nobody's girl, it's such a distinct turn and esp in the lyrical style which is really evolving now, a very different take but still with that diaristic vibe. i agree that it's not going to be SCTW 2, you can tell she's too smart for that now

Edited May 22May 22 by makeawish

55 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

hurt my feelings into grave and stay done then exes. Such whiplash

this actually comes off a lot better on the CD, hurt my feelings - stay done - grave really works

11 hours ago, makeawish said:

stay done i really like - "i've been nothing less than cordial, but if we're really talking morals" is so jane austen coded -

That was cute. While her songwriting tends to be simple and she has a tendency to tread in cliches and well worn tropes, She has some pithy one liners that stick out. Randomly, one of my faves is "never left your dad's basement, now you're mad that I made it". Also "when you're out of options, all your ******* find out all you do its lie". 18 year old Tate coming up with that gives me a chuckle. I'm so gone is actually such a fun song lyrically. It's a shame she wasn't working with Emile then because the production is so boilerplate and basic that it sucks all the personality out of it. *** for Tat and Anything but Love are like more improved versions of that. These songs solidified my feelings that she does shady Tate far better and more convincingly than sad Tate. Maybe because it's more believable that she's able to quickly detach emotionally from these mid boys she's dating than actually losing sleep over them.

11 hours ago, makeawish said:

(go away is the heads choice from the first album, a real alltimer).

Yes go away is a gem. It was a real breath of fresh air on her debut. It seems like 70% of the album is thematically saying the same thing - you did me dirty, and now i'm gone, I hope you regret it, but that one felt like a moment of real perspective. It's so interesting that her young fans will swear that her debut was so much more authentic, and her music now is more contrived, but if you actually pay attention to her debut she was absolutely doing the whole "I hate my ex, he's a narcissistic" trope that all the Gen Z pop girls were doing in the wake of Good4U. IMO IUTTICF is actually her most inauthentic trend-chasing album. Even with the collaborators, every song is with a different camp of writers who had just scored a big hit with someone.

11 hours ago, makeawish said:

but also, that's tate's style for better or worse and the fact that she can be a bit crap sometimes is one of the things i love about her lyrics, i tend to think "you can tell it's her cos if it was all ghostwritten then she wouldn't be singing that" lmao

This! When people doubt her songwriting, I find it funny because these songs definitely sound like they were written by a young woman and not 40+ year old Tedder or Amy.

2 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

Yes go away is a gem. It was a real breath of fresh air on her debut. It seems like 70% of the album is thematically saying the same thing - you did me dirty, and now i'm gone, I hope you regret it, but that one felt like a moment of real perspective. It's so interesting that her young fans will swear that her debut was so much more authentic, and her music now is more contrived, but if you actually pay attention to her debut she was absolutely doing the whole "I hate my ex, he's a narcissistic" trope that all the Gen Z pop girls were doing in the wake of Good4U. IMO IUTTICF is actually her most inauthentic trend-chasing album. Even with the collaborators, every song is with a different camp of writers who had just scored a big hit with someone.

it is real variations on a theme but what works is the way that she spits those songs out, she does the girl wronged trope and projects that fury so well (things like "never left your dad's basement, now you're mad that I made it" and "when you're out of options, all your b*tches find out all you do its lie" are great examples of that).

the whole thing, including the production (esp the production) is v olivia coded and the sulkier songs wear on me a lot more, esp hate myself which comes off like a self indulgent tantrum (actually i like it a lot better than sour cos it's nearly all like that), but i do think she brings something of herself to all those performances . even i still say goodnight, which is screaming billie reject, has all those little problem page "is your boyfriend cheating?" things to it ("you get that look you get when you're about to lie") which is a whole vibe you have at that age, it's nothing very original but the character is played perfectly.

but yeah, go away is amazing, "you like to care until you don't" is a line that sticks with me a lot

Edited May 23May 23 by makeawish

4 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

t's so interesting that her young fans will swear that her debut was so much more authentic, and her music now is more contrived

i think the young fans perhaps don't have the perspective that actually you might be very different at 16 and 22, and in fact that you probably should be? and also, what i tend to think about pop songs is that ofc they often have a template to them but the writers and performers still bring themselves to that and it's how you get along with that vibe that's important rather than questions of absolute "authenticity".

people on ATRL will sit and whine about everyone's co-writers for a cheap drag but the important thing is if you can hear the thing that makes someone special at the centre of it, including just in performance if need be (like, could anyone else have been rihanna? if they could then i'd like to see them try) but you can definitely hear tate as a writer across all those albums in different ways

Her new hair is TOO blonde. Met Gala blonde was the perfect shade for her. She needs to go back... NOW!!!! Everyone message her!!! Include her gay dancer friend (Fin) too I know he sees everything.

We need a summer BOP! Slay T8palooza. And a mid-tempo hymn for the Fall before the album release.

ALSOOO: if her team were smart they would make sure her music is included in Heated Rivalry and Off Campus S2. She is THEE Hockey Pop Girl. Her team needs 2 get better at seizing opportunities and making smarter decisions (especially regarding lead singles)

Edited May 24May 24 by Cheers

1 hour ago, Cheers said:

Her new hair is TOO blonde. Met Gala blonde was the perfect shade for her. She needs to go back... NOW!!!! Everyone message her!!! Include her gay dancer friend (Fin) too I know he sees everything.

It depends on the lighting/angle. It looks blonder in some pics but it still looks like the met gala shade here, which was a few days ago

1 hour ago, Cheers said:

We need a summer BOP! Slay T8palooza. And a mid-tempo hymn for the Fall before the album release.

YES! The music scene is so dry rn, everyone is flopping, and old hits are dominating. It's the perfect time to release a summer smash. She can keep the fall release. They get buried by Christmas songs and then struggle to rebound in January. The album should also not come out in Q1. May-July is optimal to dominate during the summer and still be top of mind by award season.

1 hour ago, Cheers said:

ALSOOO: if her team were smart they would make sure her music is included in Heated Rivalry and Off Campus S2. She is THEE Hockey Pop Girl. Her team needs 2 get better at seizing opportunities and making smarter decisions (especially regarding lead singles)

Agree. Not being on either soundtrack was a missed opportunity. She could even snag a quick cameo on the next season of either of those shows.

1 hour ago, Cheers said:

Include her gay dancer friend (Fin) too I know he sees everything.

idk how i feel if her team are lurking here and taking notes, clear that i'm making persuasive arguments in this thread for the first album and she might pivot back to that sound, i don't want the blame

The way I've been obsessed with Nothing Could Replace Me for the past months. Such a great track. Her best unreleased from TM1 sessions. That's how you do a pop rock track. Olivia R. should take some notes (since they're apparently friends). Also, Tate needs to work with Ian Kirkpatrick again asap

23 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

It depends on the lighting/angle. It looks blonder in some pics but it still looks like the met gala shade here, which was a few days ago

YES! The music scene is so dry rn, everyone is flopping, and old hits are dominating. It's the perfect time to release a summer smash. She can keep the fall release. They get buried by Christmas songs and then struggle to rebound in January. The album should also not come out in Q1. May-July is optimal to dominate during the summer and still be top of mind by award season.

Agree. Not being on either soundtrack was a missed opportunity. She could even snag a quick cameo on the next season of either of those shows.

It looks horrifyingly blonde in some pics. I am scared!!!!

I do believe we are getting a single before T8Palooza!!!

We need to spam her team. A song of hers needs to play during a pivotal scene. Like ughhh.

22 hours ago, makeawish said:

idk how i feel if her team are lurking here and taking notes, clear that i'm making persuasive arguments in this thread for the first album and she might pivot back to that sound, i don't want the blame

I do want another hymn like You Broke Me First !!! (DIAMOND in Brazil and France btw)

Really loved So Close to What. Still play it and the deluxe a lot. Hope she drops a new album within the next 8-9 months.

I need new music. She's picking up bad habits from Dua. Girl, stop vacationing and drop a hot summer single.

I keep seeing discourse around her supposedly MAGA boyfriend. As far as I know, their relationship is casual, so is it really worth catching this much heat? Getting hate for something you did is one thing, but getting hate because of something your boyfriend did is so unnecessary. Does she really have that much goodwill to waste on this boy?