the hint is there that called siren sound, we could agree that the stream potential is there and RCA said that didnt make album cut. her team better fight harder on these demos, only thing that hold them back is their own label. otherwise she will be unstoppable.

44 minutes ago, makeawish said:

another thing I was thinking about today: I was listening to billboard's biggest pop stars of 2025 tate episode and one of the things that the presenter was saying is that she fits much more into the Britney lineage than the kind of post Taylor artists that we see around now because her lyrics are less diaristic and relatable than her peers.

which set me thinking, that's a take you get to if you look at the singles from uh oh onwards but if you go back to the 1st album, the think later album tracks etc, then the diaristic material - chaotic, go away, grave etc - is where she really used to excel. of the hits, there's only really revolving door that takes that line at all (it's still there on sctw I think but obvs takes more of a backseat now)

and then I thought about whether this tied into @Raphy 's take in another thread that she needs an adult contemporary hit - those kind of songs used to be a real strength and now that she's stepped away from them singleswise then people do notice the gap

(tempted to post my 1500 word essay on so close to what that I wrote in release week but y'all not ready for that)

The album tracks are still written in a diary style, and that includes SCTW album tracks. But yeah her team fumbled regarding a ballad single

Run For The Hills

Purple Lace Bra

Siren Sounds

Any of these three should have been released as official singles and pushed to AC radio for an adult audience.

But again I imagine she didn't get a big marketing budget before. Releasing songs to radios cost money after all. The labels obviously chose to spend money on studio sessions with songwriters so she could release projects continously and build a steady fanbase. And it worked. Because So Close to What had very decent streams despite lacking a big hit like Greedy, the album secured a fanbase who consume her whole project rather than quick chart-topping singles.

3 hours ago, makeawish said:

sanother thing I was thinking about today: I was listening to billboard's biggest pop stars of 2025 tate episode and one of the things that the presenter was saying is that she fits much more into the Britney lineage than the kind of post Taylor artists that we see around now because her lyrics are less diaristic and relatable than her peers.

which set me thinking, that's a take you get to if you look at the singles from uh oh onwards but if you go back to the 1st album, the think later album tracks etc, then the diaristic material - chaotic, go away, grave etc - is where she really used to excel. of the hits, there's only really revolving door that takes that line at all (it's still there on sctw I think but obvs takes more of a backseat now)

and then I thought about whether this tied into @Raphy 's take in another thread that she needs an adult contemporary hit - those kind of songs used to be a real strength and now that she's stepped away from them singleswise then people do notice the gap

(tempted to post my 1500 word essay on so close to what that I wrote in release week but y'all not ready for that)

Agree with all this. I think songs like sports car, exes, greedy, IOIO are not natural or instinctive for her to make. So when she's actively trying to make a single or a hit,maybe she's relying more on her collaborators to lead, so the songs tend to be impersonal and lack narrative. I think revolving door, *** for tat, nobody's girl are steps in the right direction in terms of having singles that are personal and also drive the narrative forward. Because greedy, exes, sports car, IOIO stick out like a sore thumb on their albums thematically because they're not really adding anything to the narrative, which is already loose and vague anyway.

Also on the issue of theme, I think having a creative director and a stylist with a clear, singular vision can change her life. It feels like she has these loose ideas and concepts but the execution isn't great and the cohesion is missing, so everything about her presentation feels disjointed and random. With Think Later she had the hockey theme, and was kinda trying for a good girl gone bad shift with more sex appeal, but then the album didn't really give that. Then SCTW she had the IOIO mv with classic 2000's naughty pop moment, then suddenly it's about orange and F1 with 2 hands, then sports car is high fashion and dark instead of continuing the F1 theme. Then revolving door MV is bright and stripped down, with a new style of choreography. Then with the album visuals, she's introducing this stardom, fame, paparazzi concept but goes with a different cover. Then she does yet another shift with the deluxe with the hazy, angel, fairy, moody universe theme. Honing in on one identity and a clear aesthetic and singular creative theme for TM4 will be more ideal.

she killed and buried tatiana the day she wrote this masterpiece

8 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

Agree with all this. I think songs like sports car, exes, greedy, IOIO are not natural or instinctive for her to make. So when she's actively trying to make a single or a hit,maybe she's relying more on her collaborators to lead, so the songs tend to be impersonal and lack narrative. I think revolving door, *** for tat, nobody's girl are steps in the right direction in terms of having singles that are personal and also drive the narrative forward. Because greedy, exes, sports car, IOIO stick out like a sore thumb on their albums thematically because they're not really adding anything to the narrative, which is already loose and vague anyway.

Also on the issue of theme, I think having a creative director and a stylist with a clear, singular vision can change her life. It feels like she has these loose ideas and concepts but the execution isn't great and the cohesion is missing, so everything about her presentation feels disjointed and random. With Think Later she had the hockey theme, and was kinda trying for a good girl gone bad shift with more sex appeal, but then the album didn't really give that. Then SCTW she had the IOIO mv with classic 2000's naughty pop moment, then suddenly it's about orange and F1 with 2 hands, then sports car is high fashion and dark instead of continuing the F1 theme. Then revolving door MV is bright and stripped down, with a new style of choreography. Then with the album visuals, she's introducing this stardom, fame, paparazzi concept but goes with a different cover. Then she does yet another shift with the deluxe with the hazy, angel, fairy, moody universe theme. Honing in on one identity and a clear aesthetic and singular creative theme for TM4 will be more ideal.

agree on both points here - i always think that about the singles and so you end up with this situation where people have listened to sports car, greedy and JKW and think that's wholly the type of artist she is when - as good as they are on their own terms - she's been a more developed and characteristic writer than that for a long time now.

the point about themes is really interesting because while she's good at creating that world inside the songs (outside of the hits) and instinctively knows how to bring that together with the performance aspect, there seems to be a lot of voices just sort of telling her to do stuff without anyone really understanding how it fits together

so - as well as all that kind of stuff yr talking about - you also end up with embarrassing things like her turning up to the awards show in the britney dress without her knowing the reference, damaging things like the wallen collab, etc. i feel like a strong collaborator pulling her wider image together outside of the music would just put a stop to all of that and, having reached this point, there's really no reason for things to still be as chaotic.mp3 as they feel (tho in a sense the chaos remains her brand)

OK this is serious. I am hearing a disclaimer on Toronto/Ottawa radio stations before every Tate song that plays. "Every time Tate McRae plays on our station, we are donating to Team Canada." i mean at least they are donating.

5 hours ago, makeawish said:

agree on both points here - i always think that about the singles and so you end up with this situation where people have listened to sports car, greedy and JKW and think that's wholly the type of artist she is when - as good as they are on their own terms - she's been a more developed and characteristic writer than that for a long time now.

Exactly. I think people who only know Tate from her singles have no concept of the type of artist she is, which is why they don't get her success. She's successful because she falls somewhere in between a Britney and a Taylor. She has the narrative driven songs that people can connect with, and then she has the catchy hot girl bops. She's the relatable girl next door, but she's the confident, larger-than-life popstar on stage. She's aspirational, but also attainable and non-threatening, and I think that's very important for a Gen Z star.

5 hours ago, makeawish said:

so - as well as all that kind of stuff yr talking about - you also end up with embarrassing things like her turning up to the awards show in the britney dress without her knowing the reference, damaging things like the wallen collab, etc. i feel like a strong collaborator pulling her wider image together outside of the music would just put a stop to all of that and, having reached this point, there's really no reason for things to still be as chaotic.mp3 as they feel (tho in a sense the chaos remains her brand)

Agree with this as well. I feel like she's so good at the work aspect of being a pop star, but so terrible at the 'star' aspect. She seems completely unsavvy about how she portrays herself and her public image. Either she doesn't get how to play the game by aligning herself with the right people or she doesn't have access to them. Nothing against Ryan as a producer/hitmaker, but a pop girl having him as their main executive producer just doesn't give them any credibility.

Also the fact that her first major collab was Wallen is a troubling sign, for many reasons besides the obvious. Is it that no big A-listers want to associate with her? I always found it odd that Greedy didn't get a remix with a major star to send it to no 1, when it was so close. It's also telling that the best features she could get on SCTW after a massive smash like Greedy were Flo Milli and her then BF. Not even her label mates SZA (who she stans very loudly) or Doja? Even having Zara as her opening act was not a savvy move, she could have had a rising star like Adela open, so she could contribute to breaking a new star like Olivia did with Chappel. It was very predictable that people would tear her down to build Zara up. Sometimes I wonder if her team is just clueless or deliberately using controversy as a marketing tactic.

But the fact that she's somehow successful despite all the chaos as you said just speaks to how inevitable she is as a star.

11 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

Agree with this as well. I feel like she's so good at the work aspect of being a pop star, but so terrible at the 'star' aspect. She seems completely unsavvy about how she portrays herself and her public image. Either she doesn't get how to play the game by aligning herself with the right people or she doesn't have access to them. Nothing against Ryan as a producer/hitmaker, but a pop girl having him as their main executive producer just doesn't give them any credibility.

this is one of the things i think that's interesting about the comparison with addison that so many people seem so desperate to make. i like addison but she's a work in progress - her sound isn't esp original, there's a certain awkwardness to the way she uses that ironic lyrical tone, she's good but she's hardly this serious artiste that some people are making her out to be. she takes a different line from tate and good for her but i don't she's actually as good at what she does.

but the thing that she really does have - probably because of her influencer background and having people like charli in her corner - is that she intuitively understands how the music media works, the kind of musical references to talk about and buttons she has to push to make 'serious' critics think that she's the kind of artist that it's ok for them to like (JADE is in a similar position over here)

tate has absolutely none of that lmao and while tbh i find it endearing - it's extremely funny to me that she wore a sex pistols t shirt to the rolling stone interview and then just said 'i have no idea what that is' - there are very serious people who will never forgive her for it. i do think a lot of it is to do with her age and she'll probably learn more about the heritage of what she does as she goes along (i feel like actually she already is but only in quite a piecemeal way) but i can't understand why her team haven't gotten across it

2 hours ago, makeawish said:

this is one of the things i think that's interesting about the comparison with addison that so many people seem so desperate to make. i like addison but she's a work in progress - her sound isn't esp original, there's a certain awkwardness to the way she uses that ironic lyrical tone, she's good but she's hardly this serious artiste that some people are making her out to be. she takes a different line from tate and good for her but i don't she's actually as good at what she does.

but the thing that she really does have - probably because of her influencer background and having people like charli in her corner - is that she intuitively understands how the music media works, the kind of musical references to talk about and buttons she has to push to make 'serious' critics think that she's the kind of artist that it's ok for them to like (JADE is in a similar position over here)

tate has absolutely none of that lmao and while tbh i find it endearing - it's extremely funny to me that she wore a sex pistols t shirt to the rolling stone interview and then just said 'i have no idea what that is' - there are very serious people who will never forgive her for it. i do think a lot of it is to do with her age and she'll probably learn more about the heritage of what she does as she goes along (i feel like actually she already is but only in quite a piecemeal way) but i can't understand why her team haven't gotten across it

You are completely right about Addison, iMO her only strengths are her ability to find the right creative partners and her understanding of how to present herself in a way that appeals to pop intellectuals. I do find it shocking that people can't see through the mirage and genuinely consider her an artiste. It's actually insane and ironic that you can successfully manufacture an "underground cult pop star".

Whereas Tate seems so adorably clueless about how a lot of the things she says will land with pop fans. I remember when she used to say her main inspirations were Post Malone and the Weekend until she realised that staning pop girls is much more effective than male artists. It was funny to see her suddenly become a massive Ariana, SZA, and Rihanna fan, but it's even funnier that she can't even bother to build her stan narrative around more obscure pop references. On the other hand, I think Tate understands how to present herself in a way that lands well with the gp/casual music listeners. Especially in her early career, she was very savvy at marketing herself online without feeling too forced or cringy. Meanwhile, Addison has the opposite problem. Her entire shtick comes across as forced for the gp, and she's always been considered cringy.

Also, I think it's interesting how people criticise Tate by saying she's not a student of pop culture like Addison, because instead of pop, she's a student of the performing arts. She may not have studied Madonna, Cher and Britney, but she studied Bob Fosse, Martha Graham, Gene Kelly, Gwen Verdon, and I don't think that's less valid. She's referencing classic musicals and ballets in some of her MVs and performances, but that's not considered cool or relevant for pop fans. They both have things the other can learn from, but they are not rivals/peers, and I think the 'rivalry' is a forced narrative created and perpetuated by Addison's team, because they understand the game, and the perceived rivalry only benefits Addison.

12 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

You are completely right about Addison, iMO her only strengths are her ability to find the right creative partners and her understanding of how to present herself in a way that appeals to pop intellectuals. I do find it shocking that people can't see through the mirage and genuinely consider her an artiste. It's actually insane and ironic that you can successfully manufacture an "underground cult pop star".

i think this speaks to how skin deep poptimism is as a critical philosophy. people will bleat on about it having "Gone Too Far" but the reality is that it's still an unfinished revolution: critics still can't appreciate straightforward pop music on its own terms, they need a bunch of very old fashioned "authenticity" signifiers before it can get thru the door, after which very few questions are actually asked. the absolutely wild critical success of addison just shows how threadbare that pretence is.

12 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

Whereas Tate seems so adorably clueless about how a lot of the things she says will land with pop fans. I remember when she used to say her main inspirations were Post Malone and the Weekend until she realised that staning pop girls is much more effective than male artists. It was funny to see her suddenly become a massive Ariana, SZA, and Rihanna fan, but it's even funnier that she can't even bother to build her stan narrative around more obscure pop references. On the other hand, I think Tate understands how to present herself in a way that lands well with the gp/casual music listeners. Especially in her early career, she was very savvy at marketing herself online without feeling too forced or cringy

my feeling has always been that her appreciation of ari, sza etc is basically genuine - you hear it in the writing - but probably doesn't go all that deep and so they had to invent a bit of history for it. but i think the reason that she doesn't really cast any wider (ntm on that tho, she has rosalía lmao) is because, unlike addison, she's no good at bullshitting in interviews and so is at least sensible enough to stick with what she knows, while also understanding that stanning jeremy zucker really wasn't going to cut it anymore. besides - and this speaks to what yr saying about her relatability there - for her to tell rolling stone that she likes the beatles and then say that she made a playlist or something feels far more authentic to her vibe than her suddenly going on about how the white album changed her life and probably far more relatable to the fans who grew up with her.

one of the things that really stood out to me about this stuff is that while she definitely doesn't put fwd a convincing interest in the kind of 00s pop stars who are often echoed in her productions - she's never floundering more than when someone starts going on about britney - what she did understand is that they were a terrific vehicle to tie her dancing to and, over time, her songwriting as well. there's a clip somewhere with zane lowe - makes sign of cross - where she was talking about how resistant she was to releasing greedy (something else that's been memoryholed now) but then realised that, if they went for it, then she had to go full pop girl, she could do the whole thing with the choreo and the glam, she really saw the vision from there.

12 hours ago, Sharon Stone said:

Also, I think it's interesting how people criticise Tate by saying she's not a student of pop culture like Addison, because instead of pop, she's a student of the performing arts. She may not have studied Madonna, Cher and Britney, but she studied Bob Fosse, Martha Graham, Gene Kelly, Gwen Verdon, and I don't think that's less valid. She's referencing classic musicals and ballets in some of her MVs and performances, but that's not considered cool or relevant for pop fans.

i think tate's authenticity is hugely underrated from this angle - she obviously understands dance from a student's perspective but also really worked at incorporating that as a songwriter as well, all those reports of her plotting out the moves as they were writing the songs really speaks to that. but the other side of it is that, having learned how to bring the more emotional material into upbeat songs on SCTW, there's still that line going back to the earlier material, the emotional teenage girl who liked to make songs up in her bedroom and knew how to present that in a relatable way. i think that this is why she's been able to hold onto her fans thru eras which are - on the surface - wildly different: because the tate who's in the middle of them is still recognisably the same. but the one thing the snobs will never forgive anyone for is being an emotional teenage girl lmao

Edited February 7Feb 7 by makeawish

On 2/7/2026 at 1:23 AM, Sharon Stone said:

I think the 'rivalry' is a forced narrative created and perpetuated by Addison's team, because they understand the game, and the perceived rivalry only benefits Addison.

this was a thing i meant to come back on: is this actually real? i didn't think it existed outside ATRL and then usually as a bit of trolling (except for one esp damaged individual), tho tbf i tend to avoid a lot of hardcore stan spaces, ATRL is plenty

4 hours ago, makeawish said:

this was a thing i meant to come back on: is this actually real? i didn't think it existed outside ATRL and then usually as a bit of trolling (except for one esp damaged individual), tho tbf i tend to avoid a lot of hardcore stan spaces, ATRL is plenty

on twitter, atrl, and tiktok her fans seem desperate to make them seem like they're on a same tier of success, and since they're both part of the new gen of artists, a lot of people who don't pay much attention to charts seem to believe so.

these past weeks they seem to be targeting madison beer and olivia deen more

I'm in São Paulo, Brazil. And We're not alike is playing at the airport

Global pop sensation, Tate McRae

On 2/10/2026 at 12:15 PM, makeawish said:

this was a thing i meant to come back on: is this actually real? i didn't think it existed outside ATRL and then usually as a bit of trolling (except for one esp damaged individual), tho tbf i tend to avoid a lot of hardcore stan spaces, ATRL is plenty

It's definitely a thing in pop spaces. Twitter, Reddit. I've also noticed that some critics seem to be playing into it as well and choosing sides. Pitchfork is not subtle about their bias for Addison. Also I didn't think it was a coincidence that Billboard ranked Tate's VMA performance the best and Addison's Grammy performance the worst.

Im so curious to know what she's doing next. I wonder if she has a loose summer single or feature in the works. She's never gone a year without releasing music, but I somehow don't see TM4 rollout starting this year

On 2/10/2026 at 11:15 AM, makeawish said:

this was a thing i meant to come back on: is this actually real? i didn't think it existed outside ATRL and then usually as a bit of trolling (except for one esp damaged individual), tho tbf i tend to avoid a lot of hardcore stan spaces, ATRL is plenty

It was a thing like a year ago but I feel like it has kinda fizzled out by now.

38 minutes ago, collin said:

It was a thing like a year ago but I feel like it has kinda fizzled out by now.

nice that some people on ATRL are really working to keep it alive lol (i think the thing about p4k is real but also probably part of their general pattern of using addison to come after a lot of the more mainstream pop girls, which i don't think will age well)

21 hours ago, makeawish said:

nice that some people on ATRL are really working to keep it alive lol (i think the thing about p4k is real but also probably part of their general pattern of using addison to come after a lot of the more mainstream pop girls, which i don't think will age well)

They even used Katseye to shade Tate in her SCTW review which aged like milk lol. It's so unserious that her debut is the only album they didn't trash.

12 minutes ago, Sharon Stone said:

They even used Katseye to shade Tate in her SCTW review which aged like milk lol. It's so unserious that her debut is the only album they didn't trash.

i avoided the p4k review for ages cos i knew it would be trash but i read it the other day and i was absolutely fuming lmao. it is really interesting that the more popgirl and less singer songwriter coded she's become, the more overtly hostile those outlets have become to her, even tho in terms of the kind of artist she actually is - strong writing presence but with pop focused teams/production - it's not like she's changed all that much. that review esp was really determined not to take her seriously at all (as opposed to addison, i rest my case)

7 minutes ago, makeawish said:

i avoided the p4k review for ages cos i knew it would be trash but i read it the other day and i was absolutely fuming lmao. it is really interesting that the more popgirl and less singer songwriter coded she's become, the more overtly hostile those outlets have become to her, even tho in terms of the kind of artist she actually is - strong writing presence but with pop focused teams/production - it's not like she's changed all that much. that review esp was really determined not to take her seriously at all (as opposed to addison, i rest my case)

For me, the part of the review that solidified how unserious they were was the Katseye mention. This was before gnarly so they weren't really relevant enough to mention. It was very clear that they are deliberately trying to prop up these girls by bringing Tate down, and aren't even being subtle about it. It's not just Pitchfork too, Paste gave the lowest SCTW review by a large margin and the highest Addison review. It's too obvious to be a coincidence.

21 hours ago, makeawish said:

nice that some people on ATRL are really working to keep it alive lol (i think the thing about p4k is real but also probably part of their general pattern of using addison to come after a lot of the more mainstream pop girls, which i don't think will age well)

I agree. I like Addison though. I think people being against Tate is gonna age poorly. Same with Gracie tbh

3 minutes ago, collin said:

I agree. I like Addison though. I think people being against Tate is gonna age poorly. Same with Gracie tbh

agree on all counts (tho i fear we'll be tarred and feathered over gracie). i like addison too, it's just the more that she's set up as this thing for everyone to aspire to i'm just like "why is she singled out, why is she better?", i feel like she's really good at playing that media game (and good for her tbh, it's not everyone who can beat that system)

26 minutes ago, makeawish said:

"why is she singled out, why is she better?"

This is exactly my issue. None of the critics who exuberantly sing her praises can explain why she's different. Why is her being derivative of other artists a good thing when those same critics bash Tate for the same thing? Why is lyricism, songwriting, and storytelling suddenly not a requirement for her?

She seems like a sweet girl but her being used as a weapon against other girls by her fans and critics will not age well.