news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Communion]

13 minutes ago, Kassi said:

The fundamental obstacle to peace, however, is that Islamists in the region don’t believe the Israeli state should exist.

Quick question whose answer should then illuminate what commentary should be allowed in here - 

 

Factually, has Israel implemented the UN mandated conditions of Palestinians' Right of Return?

 

This doesn't need paragraphs. This doesn't need essays. It's literally a very simply yes or no answer.

 

The two state solution - as outlined by the UN resolutions 181 and 194 - is contingent on the return home for all Palestinian refugees displaced by the Israeli regime and the end of the Zionist project; 70% of those within Gaza are the grandchildren and children of those who were ethnically cleansed by Israeli forces.

 

The refusal to end the ethno-nationalist project - a UN peace commissioner being assassinated for it - is the fundamental reason why this conflict continues decades on.

 

To quote Yasha Levine - Israelis have a choice: commit to the bit and acknowledge the natural conclusion of their project is complete genocide, or to give up on the Zionist ethno-nationalist dream once and for all to move beyond the suffering it has caused.

 

Quote

Well our vagabond tribe succeeded. It got the land that it hungered for so much. It got power, too.

 

But the people whose land the tribe took didn’t disappear. They were displaced. Their kids, their grandkids, their great-grandkids are still alive today — spread around the world but also corralled into ghettos not far from their old homes, surrounded by walls and barbed wire, periodically bombed and shot by “our” side — by the grandkids of the Zionist Jews who first coveted the land of their forefathers.

 

It’s no coincidence that at least 70 percent of the 2 million people in Gaza are descendants of Palestinians that had been cleared in ethnic cleansing campaigns

Quote

So what do my fellow diaspora Jews, living safe integrated multicultural lives in America and Europe, expect to happen in their Zionist homeland? They think they can support an active colonial state and a brutal military occupation…and have people in Israel live normal protected western consumerist lives, just like them, with no hiccups, no violence, no death spilling over the ghetto wall?

Quote

If the diaspora really wants to take a shot at making things “normal” in Israel, it has two paths: to either fully back genocide or give up on Zionism and push Israel towards reconciliation and integration. I know it’s useless to type all this out. I don’t have much faith in the second option happening. My Zionist diaspora isn’t into it at all. And the Israelis definitely aren’t — it seems like they’re getting crazier and crazier.3 The Palestinians still haven’t given up fighting, either. So…on it goes.4

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Communion

[Scars]

58 minutes ago, besaid said:

There has never been an incident which included the Israeli military invading Gazan territory, kidnapping and raping and killing hundreds of people at a time (with the majority targeted being women and children). The IDF is rotten to the core surely and guilty of a ton of unnecessary and unprovoked violence but there is no comparison between this event and the vast majority of IDF-related collateral deaths (as in, civilians deaths that were not deliberately targeted). All of it is death and it is all horrible and unfortunate but this attack garnered this much attention because it deserves to not because there's some global conspiracy afoot. 

It's not a "global conspiracy" that western media is heavily pro-Israel. Said that, I honestly see the point you're trying to make by mentioning the "at a time" factor to justify the relevance of media reporting on the HAMAS attack, but the thing is that...I'm not really questioning or even disagreeing with the merit of the attention that recent events have gathered.

 

That specific part of my post that you've quoted point out the double standard of media framing/reporting AND audience perception on attacks/victims depending on the perpetrator and the ongoing narrative on dynamics between Palestine-Israel, so in this case, it's hard to not read as extremely disingenuous a post that goes "well, excuse me, but the IDF has never exactly killed hundreds of people at same time, not comparable" when the numbers look like this:

 

 

Updated data and available option to filter deaths solely caused by IDF here.

.

If one goes down this route with you, it'll be quite easy to argue that HAMAS has a lot to catch up to do when it comes to the number of deaths per year commited by Israel, especially considering the massive financial gap in military resources between the two. I hope things will get better and no more innocent lives will be lost. In order to achieve that for the next generations, I firmly believe in the rise of a free Palestine and the end of the Israel apartheid regime.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Scars

[Kassi]

43 minutes ago, needs said:

This is a wildly complicated issue that I studied for months in school but to me it's Palestine's land and that's a hill I'll die on.

A perspective which ignores 1000s of years of history throughout the region and the nature of wars. The Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, Ottomans and others have been up and through that area. 
 

Litigating lineage and historical claims is how we stay in a perpetual conflict. What’s most important is the here and now. Now that Jews and Palestinians share the lands, what is the best path forward? That’s what everyone should be focused on and putting their energy toward solving. 
 

The best analogy I can think of is what would happen if the US tried to deport all 11 million illegal immigrants? Even Republican President Reagan couldn’t see a way through it, so he ended up giving amnesty. 
 

Granting that the Jews are strangers to the land (and that’s a huge grant), then they would have arrived in British Palestine in considerable numbers as refugees, following their expulsion from Europe via pogroms and the Holocaust. So how exactly do you “undo” that? There’s no way.

[Kassi]

34 minutes ago, Communion said:

Factually, has Israel implemented the UN mandated conditions of Palestinians' Right of Return?

 

This doesn't need paragraphs. This doesn't need essays. It's literally a very simply yes or no answer.

 

The two state solution - as outlined by the UN resolutions 181 and 194 - is contingent on the return home for all Palestinian refugees displaced by the Israeli regime and the end of the Zionist project; 70% of those within Gaza are the grandchildren and children of those who were ethnically cleansed by Israeli forces.

This is not a trick question.
 

In 1947, UN Resolution 181 was issued FIRST, promptly rejected by the Arab states and Palestinian leadership, then led to the Arab-Israeli War of 1948.

 

In 1948, UN Resolution 194 was issued NEXT, in response to that war.

 

So now you’re telling people who recently survived genocide as sub-groups of larger populations, that they have to go back to being sub-groups of larger populations — and those who are openly hostile at that. 
 

Do you not see how accepting the initial resolution could lead to the normalization of relationships and natural adoption of the second resolution? Again, the fundamental issue is them not wanting Jews there at ALL.

[besaid]

34 minutes ago, Scars said:

That specific part of my post that you've quoted point out the double standard of media framing/reporting AND audience perception on attacks/victims depending on the perpetrator and the ongoing narrative on dynamics between Palestine-Israel, so in this case, it's hard to not read as extremely disingenuous a post that goes "well, excuse me, but the IDF has never exactly killed hundreds of people at same time, not comparable" when the numbers look like this:

 

What exactly is disingenuous? It is simply a fact that there is no comparable mass murder/hostage taking event committed by the IDF or any Israeli group. There is no incident of IDF storming into a civilian center and killing/kidnapping 1,000+ women and children. You were mentioning media attention on this and not on collateral deaths in the general day to day conflict in the region not getting the exact same attention and I'm explaining to you why I think that is. 

 

And I totally disagree with the end of your statement. The only path to peace in the region is a strong Israel that has a right to exist and a right to defend itself from invasion, aggression and terrorism. As far as any realist is concerned, "ending Israel" is simply not going to happen and palestinians are doing themselves no favors by refusing to distance themselves from Hamas and other extremists. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by besaid

[Bloo]

31 minutes ago, Kassi said:

A perspective which ignores 1000s of years of history throughout the region and the nature of wars. The Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, Ottomans and others have been up and through that area. 

It's weird when Americans make this argument given our claim to "our" home doesn't have time on its side either.

[Mr. Mendes]

It’s almost as Israel’s government doesn’t really care if their own citizens die. I pray if nothing else this will boost the Israeli citizens to push back against the terrorist government they’re under and make their desire for peace well known. This clown doesn’t care about Israelis, Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians. A whole bunch of innocent people under the thumbs of terrorists who could care less about their lives because their deaths are more meaningful to the narrative. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Mr. Mendes

[Kassi]

4 minutes ago, Bloo said:

It's weird when Americans make this argument given our claim to "our" home doesn't have time on its side either.

The reason it behooves us to understand this point is because we can’t do anything about the past.

 

Spanish “owned” 1/3 of the US, French owned another third, the British the last third, natives were collateral in the scramble for power, the American colonies revolted, the slaves were stolen into a new land, etc.

 

So what exactly about any of that can we undo today? Nothing.

 

The point is that historic “ownership” is a terrible rubric to build future plans off of. The borders and demographics are today what they are today. And that’s the best we have to work off of. 

[Monster Megamind]

My solution to the crisis - 

1) United States, China and Russia should work together and enforce on Israel and Palestine the 1948 boundaries.

2) Israel should abandon ALL it's settlements in West Bank and Palestinians should abandon all the claims over getting the full land. 

3) Hamas and Fatah both should not be in any power in the new Palestine and should be disbanded. Also it neither should be a democracy at least in the first 10 years. There should be a caretaker technocrat government till their economy is stabilized.

4) West Bank and Gaza should be connected by a land corridor. 

5) Based on good behaviour of the new Palestinian state, they should be given their own nuclear power plants and possibility of emigration.

6) There should probably be stiff punishment for far right radicals of Israel as well. 

The best solution is one in which no party gets everything. 

[ClashAndBurn]

6 minutes ago, Monster Megamind said:

My solution to the crisis - 

1) United States, China and Russia should work together and enforce on Israel and Palestine the 1948 boundaries.

2) Israel should abandon ALL it's settlements in West Bank and Palestinians should abandon all the claims over getting the full land. 

3) Hamas and Fatah both should not be in any power in the new Palestine and should be disbanded. Also it neither should be a democracy at least in the first 10 years. There should be a caretaker technocrat government till their economy is stabilized.

4) West Bank and Gaza should be connected by a land corridor. 

5) Based on good behaviour of the new Palestinian state, they should be given their own nuclear power plants and possibility of emigration.

6) There should probably be stiff punishment for far right radicals of Israel as well. 

The best solution is one in which no party gets everything. 

The only realistic outcome will be one where Israel gets everything it asks for, with the backing of the United States. Palestinians aren't even viewed as people by 90% of the Western world.

[Harrier]

25 minutes ago, Kassi said:

The reason it behooves us to understand this point is because we can’t do anything about the past.

 

Spanish “owned” 1/3 of the US, French owned another third, the British the last third, natives were collateral in the scramble for power, the American colonies revolted, the slaves were stolen into a new land, etc.

 

So what exactly about any of that can we undo today? Nothing.

 

The point is that historic “ownership” is a terrible rubric to build future plans off of. The borders and demographics are today what they are today. And that’s the best we have to work off of. 

This is a really great point. It also undermines the zionist position significantly. I'm not sure there is any region of the world that has changed hands more times than the levant. This idea of "nation" and historic ethnic ownsership of the land is really a fundamentally right-wing way of looking at things and it is surprising to see leftists pushing it so heavily.

 

That doesn't mean I think its a free for all and anyone should be able to displace anyone, or that I think what happened in the late 40s was acceptable - but the fact is it has been nearly 80 years. Israelis and Palestinians and there now, and anyone who argues for a solution that involves any ethnic cleansing is in my view, repugnant.

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Kassi said:

In 1948, UN Resolution 194 was issued NEXT, in response to that war.

I'm not particularly sure of the intention of just repeating everything in the quoted post.

 

Resolution 194 was introduced in response to horrors like the assassination by Zionist terrorists of Count Bernadotte - the UN peacekeeper mentioned above, who was killed for his support for Palestinian refugees.

 

Arab criticism over Resolution 181 giving a disproportional amount of land to what was to be Israel is a moot point when Zionists similarly held near verbatim complaints about both:

• Resolution 181 (are we just meant to ignore leaders like Ben-Gurion being outed as saying that the partition was but a mirage and would be done away with once the Jewish state grew and "became stronger"?);
• Resolution 194 being intended by the UN, yes, as a wide blanket for all Palestinian refugees to return home. 

The only globally accepted understanding of a two state solution picks up where Resolutions 181 and 194 left off - with any rhetoric about Arab rejection of 181 being irrelevant because Israel has already stolen more land than far exceeds the proposed map from the original UNSCOP report through violent means, creating more refugees. 

 

Literally only within the Western world is Israel enabled to live in the fantasy that it can both maintain a permanent underclass of ethnic minorities and the fantasy that retaliatory violence will not continue. 

 

There is no two state solution without the end of Zionism because Zionism states all Palestinians and the Palestinian state must be eradicated. Your post suggested support for such "two states" yet further probing shows otherwise. There was just a need for historical context and correction of the record. 

 

It's not normal to advocate so hard for an ethno-state that it sees calls for the murder of 200,000+ people on live American television: 

CC:

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Communion

[Karla Cabello]

a world leader posting war crimes for everyone to see with the back up of the western world and usa paid bombs. absolutely appalling

[Nova_23]

The bottom line is that no one should have been given the right to a land that’s not theirs. Just because some book from some religious text (religion is a mistake anyways) from 1,000000 years ago or whatever said something doesn’t make it a free for all to just displace natives out of their homes. 

 

Not everyone believes in Islam or Christianity or Judaism so trying to force your religious beliefs as the reason why it’s okay for Israelis to displace/to have displaced Palestinians is absurd. *Also note how I used the terms Israeli and Palestinian cause I know the same users are going to come in here screaming anti semitism* 

 

If you’re a non-native displacing people out of their homes, you’re a colonist. 

[Karla Cabello]

4 minutes ago, Nova_23 said:

The bottom line is that no one should have been given the right to a land that’s not theirs. Just because some book from some religious text (religion is a mistake anyways) from 1,000000 years ago or whatever said something doesn’t make it a free for all to just displace natives out of their homes. 

 

Not everyone believes in Islam or Christianity or Judaism so trying to force your religious beliefs as the reason why it’s okay for Israelis to displace/to have displaced Palestinians is absurd. *Also note how I used the terms Israeli and Palestinian cause I know the same users are going to come in here screaming anti semitism* 

 

If you’re a non-native displacing people out of their homes, you’re a colonist. 

that is just an excuse. israel is there to protect the usa interests in the middle east

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Kassi said:

Spanish “owned” 1/3 of the US, French owned another third, the British the last third, natives were collateral in the scramble for power, the American colonies revolted, the slaves were stolen into a new land, etc.

And this framing, assuming that the European colonizers had any legitimate claim to the land to begin with. completely erases the Native populations. Typical  

[bad guy]

As others have stated it's not a black and white issue. There are innocent people caught in the crossfire of both the Israeli government and by Hamas, and the sheer history of that region alone is so nuanced and complicated that it's very easy for people to quickly choose "sides" right now instead of viewing this as a tragedy for everyone living in that region. 

 

The violence perpetuated by the Israeli government, and particularly the IDF, has been abhorrent for decades. I don't think anyone can deny that. That said, this coordinated attack by Hamas is equally heinous and it's been weird seeing people online be so dismissive of this. I don't see how raping/mutilating/shooting/bombing Israeli women, children, and elderly is in any way a serious step for Palestinian sovereignty. If that were the case Hamas would be attacking the government or Netanyahu, as that is who have had their hands in Gaza suffering for years. I've been seeing subtle arguments online that Israeli citizens somehow got what's coming to them because of their "silence" on the ills of their government, which is not only disingenuous but dangerous. Hamas attacking civilians is purely out of malice. And just like IDF's killings of Palestinians, this too is indefensible behavior. Parading the body of a dead woman in their trucks and praising God for her death, while the men and boys on the street spit on her dead body is not going to do anything for Palestinian freedom. In fact, this is going to put them directly in danger as Netanyahu will use this as an excuse to cause even more violence.

 

The only side anyone should be on is the side of non-violent peace efforts by both parties, which unfortunately will not be happening anytime soon.

[Yanko]

Hope Israel gets though this terrorist attacks and i Hope terrorist chanting Gas the News in Australia get deported or jailed

[Komet]

After the Hamas attack on Israel: Clip shows the celebrations in Sweden

 

This is just one of several clips that are now being spread on social media, have been seen tens of thousands of times, and show people in Sweden celebrating the terror-labeled group Hamas's attack on Israel in the streets and squares.

The clips show cars honking their horns and waving Palestinian flags, people dancing in the streets and setting off fireworks, and the comments are full of cheers, hearts and flag emojis. Similar pro-Palestinian demonstrations are said to have also taken place in several other Swedish cities, including Stockholm and Helsingborg.

 

At the same time, the clips are criticized. "Disgusting to celebrate that civilians have been murdered," writes one user in the comment section on Tiktok.

 

(Full article in Swedish)  https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/skane/videoklipp-pastas-visa-firande-hamas-israel-sverige-sprids-sociala-medier

[Wotamin]

Honestly wish that this thread would be for updates only and not users posting their takes on a 70 year old history. This convo takes too many pages and prevents people from seeing what's new

 

Anyway Ukraine reports that Russia was helping hamas in training and providing them the drones.

IDF is advising Palestinians in gaza to take refugee in egypt

The IDF has told the people living in the Israeli north to stay in their homes, since the islamic jihad is trying to invade from lebanon. Still no signs of hezbollah involvement, probably thanks to the US warning

[Johnny Jacobs]

I advise anyone, especially with a weakened heart not to watch those videos. Many of them includes the terrorists rap!ng, molesting and brutally abusing the bodies and dying men, women and children! Spare yourself the horrors! 

 

Pray for everyone involved on both sides. 

[Riot]

 

I hope that the community note to this tweet shows up in here, but it's a great insight into the language that mainstream media uses to narrate this conflict.

 

Describing Israel's victims as "kills" and Palestine's as "deaths" paints a clear picture.

[ClashAndBurn]

 

[Carter]

1 hour ago, Johnny Jacobs said:

I advise anyone, especially with a weakened heart not to watch those videos. Many of them includes the terrorists rap!ng, molesting and brutally abusing the bodies and dying men, women and children! Spare yourself the horrors! 

 

Pray for everyone involved on both sides. 

can you share the video of them r@ping people?

[Komet]

📰  Anti-Israel Protestors Shout ‘Gas the Jews’ Outside Sydney Opera House

 

        Angry pro-Palestine protesters marched to the Sydney Opera House on Monday and appeared to chant "gas the Jews" and "f--- the Jews," according to an Australian media report. The protesters also lit off flares. [...] Fahad Ali, a Palestinian biologist at the University of Sydney and one of the protest's organizers and speakers, said in a post to X that antisemitism "has no place in our movement," and said he quickly shut down the chants from a "group of idiots" who were a minority among the larger crowd.

 

https://themessenger.com/news/anti-israel-protestors-shout-gas-the-jews-outside-sydney-opera-house

 

 

 

📰 Erdogan discusses Israeli-Palestinian conflict with regional leaders -presidency

 

        Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan discussed the latest developments in fighting between Israel and Palestinians in phone conversations on Monday with the leaders of Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Qatar and Egypt, Erdogan's office said. [...] "We believe that there will be no peace in the region without an independent, sovereign Palestine," Erdogan said in the televised address.

Erdogan urged Israel to stop bombing Palestinian lands and Palestine to stop harassing Israeli civilian settlements.Turkey is making necessary preparations to send humanitarian aid to Gaza, Erdogan added.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/erdogan-discusses-israeli-palestinian-conflict-with-regional-leaders-presidency-2023-10-09/