news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Hurem]

I'd like to repeat what I said in the other thread.

 

It is okay to feel for innocent victims on both sides. What's been going on in Palestine for years is disgusting and so is what happened in Israel just days ago. There are no winners in wars like this, only casualties. 

[FlyPirate]

25 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

The governments of the US, UK, France, Germany, and Italy made a joint statement supporting Israel's right to defend itself while also acknowledging Palestinian gripes for freedom. It also establishes an expectation that all Middle Eastern countries will acknowledge the part that they play in creating a peaceful and integrated region.

Godspeed to all the people suffering right now.

This literally means NOTHING.

 

Funny, the same EU that suspended aid to Palestine  which of course retracted after some countries (Spain, Ireland, Luxembourg & Denmark) denounced it. 

 

Free Palestine.

[Kassi]

So sad for humanity. I hope that both sides will be able to come to an understanding of the others’ right to peace, prosperity, and self-determination.

[Harrier]

Individuals arguing against "both sidesing" this need to accept that the deaths of 900+ Israeli civillians, mostly in a single morning of brutal cold blooded violence and rape, has permanently changed the moral landscape of this conflict.

 

I have been absolutely disgusted to see Hamas' medieval barbarism framed as revolutionary, necessary, or even "based", and dismayed by people denying the obvious reality that it represented an massive escalation of the conflict.

 

Palestine must be free. Israel must abandon its campaign of revenge. It must end its illegal colonialist polices in the West Bank, more actively seek permanent peace, and it must be prepared to make concessions in this process.

 

But Hamas' radical islamist ideology guarantees that Palestinians cannot be free. Their barbaric actions grant some justification for Israel's containment policies in Gaza that simply didn't exist a few days ago. While they remain committed to the violent and genocidal goal of wiping Israel off the map, there will not be true peace. No land is worth the ongoing suffering and oppression of an entire people group. That is the reality of the situation as it stands, in my view.

[réveuse]

Free Palestine

 

Justice for Palestinians

 

Justice for Israelis

 

F the IDF and the Hamas.

[abelfenty]

3 minutes ago, Harrier said:

Individuals arguing against "both sidesing" this need to accept that the deaths of 900+ Israeli civillians, mostly in a single morning of brutal cold blooded violence and rape, has permanently changed the moral landscape of this conflict.

 

I have been absolutely disgusted to see Hamas' medieval barbarism framed as revolutionary, necessary, or even "based", and dismayed by people denying the obvious reality that it represented an massive escalation of the conflict.

 

Palestine must be free. Israel must abandon its campaign of revenge. It must end its illegal colonialist polices in the West Bank, more actively seek permanent peace, and it must be prepared to make concessions in this process.

 

But Hamas' radical islamist ideology guarantees that Palestinians cannot be free. Their barbaric actions grant some justification for Israel's containment policies in Gaza that simply didn't exist a few days ago. While they remain committed to the violent and genocidal goal of wiping Israel off the map, there will not be true peace. No land is worth the ongoing suffering and oppression of an entire people group. That is the reality of the situation as it stands, in my view.

Finally someone talking a bit of sense. I’m so sick of people in today’s world feeling as though they have to ‘pick a side’ for everything, and promoting extremist ideology and views. There is a lot of nuance in these issues. They are not black and white. 

[XAMJ]

 

 

ellie goulding not being a Zionist is quite enlightening , love her 

[spiritboy]

I feel for the civilians and their families who've lost their lives. An awful situation. And while what's been happening in Palestine for the past 30-40 years is very tragic indeed, i can't understand people who defend what HAMAS did the other day. They've massacred 260+ people who were in a rave festival without a thought. That's not defense or retaliation, that's pure evil and terrorism. And i really hope they'll find a peaceful solution to de-escalate the tension because once US, Russia, Iran enters the scene, WW3 will begin.

[Яeo.]

The images about the 260 party goers that were massacred just cant leave my mind

 

i cant stop thinking about that one young woman who one minute was dancing with her friends, and the next killed and paraded in the streets of Gaza for Palestinians to spit on. 

[Aethereal]

It is easy to be against "both sidesing" when you're safe and cozy in your room and don't have to worry for any violent attack. Go visit Israel nearby the zones that were attacked and are still in danger by Hamas and we'll see how much  " anti-both sidesing" you will remain.

 

It is true that the vast majority of victims on all events prior to this one were Palestinians and that they live in terrible conditions, many of them lack basic human needs. Nobody is denying that but the scenario is much more complicated than some of you think it is. It's not just black and white.

 

Also far-right Israeli people should not use this incident to justify nationalist land claims and violence towards Palestine which they have continuously done. 

[Mitsouko]

My hope for peace is lost.

[Scars]

1 hour ago, Aramis said:

 

 

You're deeply missed, Comandante Chávez. Rest in Power! 

 

Good moment to remember the words of anti-apartheid icon Nelson Mandela on Palestine:

 

 

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

A heartbreaking and hopeless situation. The Levant has seen such terrible, unrelenting violence. I wish there was even the slightest sign of a just peace on the horizon. 

 

[Devin]

#FreePalestine
 

Sad to witness. I hope everyone remains respectful here since we finally gotta megathread.

[Kitty Kat]

 

[Miss Show Business]

Glad to see more users here expressing a more nuanced view. This is a horrible situation no matter how you try to spin it. Hamas and the IDF both have committed horrible acts of violence over the years. Violence should always be condemned, no matter which "side" it is. You should not be so wrapped up into your political ideology that you cannot condemn Hamas for this attack, and likewise, condemn the IDF for similar horrible acts of violence through the years. Innocent Palestinians and Israelis exist who just want peace, and their governments are doing nothing to accomplish that, and instead, sabotaging peace and making the situation worse.

 

I hope for peace. I can't imagine the feelings of Israeli and Palestinian citizens right now... I wish for their safety and hope this violence will come to an end.

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Aristotle said:

It is easy to be against "both sidesing" when you're safe and cozy in your room and don't have to worry for any violent attack. Go visit Israel nearby the zones that were attacked and are still in danger

Part of this ignores that the violence that Western media gives attention to is often violence in which Westerners do have an immediate sense of and reference for. That the idea of an on-ground attack - no different to that of a mass shooting - is one that is easily sympathized with and eulogized. 

 

But those eulogies are often absent for the other side, explicitly because the violence faced by Palestinians is often in a form most Westerners will never experience. Most will never have a point of reference to seeing bombs drop from the sky and blow your home away, jettisoning you to wake up later with your family incinerated. 

 

It is explicitly this privilege and distance from the crimes of Western powers that results in silence from its citizens towards tens upon tens of thousands of Palestinians victim to a murderous regime over the decades.

--

 

 

[jakeisphat]

 

[Gov Hooka]

Israel is a terrorist state, the IDF is a terrorist organization. Full stop 

[Scars]

It's very understable that there's a large number of people that want to take a moment to publicly mourn the israeli lives that were lost during the past few days, I don't think there's any sort of malicious sin in doing so. In fact, that's a pretty much unchallenged take on most of the western/westernized world, some small circles acting otherwise are a exception.

 

What's not so easy to understand is how people fail to comprehend that "this attack marks a shift on the world's view on Israel-Palestine!"/"something has forever changed after this!" narrative currently pushed all over the West is by itself a perpetuation of the double standard that have always taken place when it comes to the perception of the dynamics between Israel and Palestine. 

 

Yes, there's no denying this was the most brutal HAMAS attack, but palestinian civilians were already systematically killed at much higher rates at the hands of IDF for as far one can remember and that by itself has never changed the western status quo on Israel-Palestine:

 

- Western corporate media have ALWAYS been unabashedly pro-Israel;

- America, regardless of the political party affiliation in power, have always financially supported the IDF and it's right to defend Israel, regardless of how dubious that "right" looked at the time;

- NATO have always maintained a close relationship with Israel, regardless of it's record of crimes against humanity.

 

So, when it comes to western perception of the "moral ground" of Israel and Palestine, what has exactly changed other than the fact that people are reacting in shock and anger to see middle easterns - that look like them - being brutally murdered? 

 

At the end of the day, Israel and most of the West have always mutually agreed that israeli forces had the right to cause terror on Gaza and West Bank, no justification needed. If one can comprehend that the existence of groups like HAMAS is primarily a result of the Israel regime and it's occupation of palestinian territories in the first place, I fail to see how one can't comprehend that the latest events lead us to some questions:

 

- When will the West stop to constantly ask palestinians to prove their humanity instead of holding Israel accountable for events that are a result of their inhumane treatment of palestinians?

- What does it take for Israel to stop it's illegal annexation territories?

- If one believe HAMAS isn't a suitable military force to fight for Palestine, being unclear how many palestinians actually support them, can we look back historically on *how* and *why* did it manage to strongly surpass the influence of Fatah, a secular popular party?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Scars

[besaid]

3 hours ago, Shelter said:

Why is the US getting involved again? 
 

Did they ever do **** for Palestine? Someone educate me 

The US had recently just approved millions of dollars in AID for the region. 

 

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Not sure if this has been threaded elsewhere so apologies if it has been but Hamas is now threatening to execute the hundreds of people they kidnapped (many or most presumed women, elderly and children). They say they're planning on doing this live on TV or streaming? I don't know how they would do that though with no electricity. The US is still saying it is unknown how many of the hostages are US citizens but it is presumed some of the missing US citizens are hostages.

 

[besaid]

12 minutes ago, Scars said:

What's not so easy to understand is how people fail to comprehend that "this attack marks a shift on the world's view on Israel-Palestine!"/"something has forever changed after this!" narrative currently pushed all over the West is by itself a perpetuation of the double standard that have always taken place when it comes to the perception of the dynamics between Israel and Palestine. 

 

Yes, there's no denying this was the most successful HAMAS attack, but palestinian civilians were already systematically killed at much higher rates at the hands of IDF for as far one can remember and that by itself has never changed the western status quo on Israel-Palestine:

There has never been an incident which included the Israeli military invading Gazan territory, kidnapping and raping and killing hundreds of people at a time (with the majority targeted being women and children). The IDF is rotten to the core surely and guilty of a ton of unnecessary and unprovoked violence but there is no comparison between this event and the vast majority of IDF-related collateral deaths (as in, civilians deaths that were not deliberately targeted). All of it is death and it is all horrible and unfortunate but this attack garnered this much attention because it deserves to, not because there's some global conspiracy afoot. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by besaid

[needs]

This is a wildly complicated issue that I studied for months in school but to me it's Palestine's land and that's a hill I'll die on.

[ClashAndBurn]

 

[Kassi]

36 minutes ago, Scars said:

At the end of the day, Israel and most of the West have always mutually agreed that israeli forces had the right to cause terror on Gaza and West Bank, no justification needed. If one can comprehend that the existence of groups like HAMAS is primarily a result of the Israel regime and it's occupation of palestinian territories in the first place, I fail to see how one can't comprehend that the latest events lead us to some questions:

That’s not entirely true. Carter brokered the Camp David accords forcing Israel to return territory and established a plan for Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

 

And there have even been Republican presidents like George H.W. Bush who conditioned aid on the dismantlement of settlements. 
 

https://cssh.northeastern.edu/george-h-w-bushs-pressure-on-israel-provides-model-for-progressives/

The fundamental obstacle to peace, however, is that Islamists in the region don’t believe the Israeli state should exist. And will stop at nothing to see it eradicated even if it means using Palestinian people as collateral. Israel can continue coming back to the table time and time gain for more peace deals and treaties, but it won’t change the core issue.

 

This is evidenced by the fact that there was a solid 2 state partition plan originally put in pace that was rejected, and all of the continued violence has percolated downstream of that. 
 

Criticism is easy. But no one ever says what Israel can do to protect itself in the face of neighboring hostilities.