news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Gaia]

2 hours ago, State of Grace. said:

Well...you are indeed a victim of propaganda and pinkwashing. Human rights are not transactional, and this rhetoric in the gay community is incredibly selfish and reeks of egocentrism. You don't wanna be one of the “I can excuse genocide and colonialism, but I draw the line at gay rights" folks now, do you?

 

Last year, we saw several videos of Ukrainians being blatantly racist during the war. Is that horrible? Absolutely. Does it justify Russia's crimes against them? Absolutely not. I know many of you are tired of us drawing comparisons to Ukraine but the hypocrisy is crazy.

 

I know this sounds "bad" but frankly...LGBTQ+ rights are the least of Palestinians' concerns when they've been fighting occupation for +70 years. No country can work out these issues under settler-colonialism and an apartheid system. Change will come from within when Palestinians are actually able to live and progress, not when they're afraid of dying every day.

 

Also, it's almost like you guys always forget that Palestinian queer people do exist and are currently being bombed by the so-called progressive Israel. And if they're not being bombed, then the IDF is blackmailing them and threatening to out them to their families.

 

 

TLDR: Liberal sympathy is extremely conditional on Palestinians being the "perfect victims". I know it sounds crazy but Palestinians don't need to be woke and progressive angels to garner empathy/support or have the most basic human rights. No rights can be gained for any minority until they're free from occupation. 

 

I could go on forever, but I really urge you to read more about this. 

I don't believe human rights are "Transactional" but in this situation I am not involved in the transaction regardless. I am just a bystander on the other side of the world.

 

Saying "gay rights are the least of their concern" is actually ironic because it should be the other way around. If they've been dealing with oppression for over 70+ years why do they still care so much about LGBTQ+ people NOT having rights or freedom? 

 

I also blatantly stated that I also did not fully support Ukraine last year for the same reasons. I did not support Russia's invasion, but I also did not outwardly support Ukraine due seeing racist and homophobic tendencies in Ukrainian culture. I'd have considered myself anti-Russian invasion and war, but not pro-Ukraine either. 

 

I'm not saying they need to be woke or progressive, but that it's hard to invest in something across the world especially when the victim is a population who actively hates my existence. Simply implying "You shouldn't care, they don't deserve to die for not being progressive" doesn't make any points because I never implied that. I made it very clear I don't support Israel's government's actions. I just find it difficult to support Palestine as an entity rather than just condemn Israel.

[sunbathinganimal]

[Capris Groove]

@Gaia Because "I won't support someone who wouldn't support me" is a zero-sum, ***-for-tat race to the bottom and a belief system that isn't any better than the one you aspire to be above. Homophobia is taught, therefore it can be untaught. It's not genetic or intrinsic to a people.

 

It's crude to say this but it gets my point across: Jewish people in WWII would have been more homophobic than they are today. Not because of who they were innately but because it was a social norm of the time. Should we have been more apathetic to their plight because of this? Of course not.

[Gaia]

56 minutes ago, LazzyGrant said:

First I really like the fact you want to learn about things 

 

secondly you should always judge based on what’s right and what’s wrong not what they will do if you were in their place that’s not how I based my judgment at least 

 

I have traveled the world and not all of the people accept homosexuality and I get judged in Europe/us/uk  but I will give you that at least in the law it’s legal 

 

now as a Saudi that I have lived my whole life here I’m tired of this propaganda the media portrays the law is based on the religion (and mostly all religions doesn’t accept homosexuality in their books) but not necessarily all is applied I have never in my whole life heard a gay got a punishment by death that’s ridiculous and I have seen a lot of comments by atrelers that can’t do some research the community here is really big and expats live here as normally I mean it’s not that good but you can live as straight people on some degree won’t continue the discussion on this it’s for another day

 

9/11 the majority of muslims is against it and it doesn’t reflect on them based on a terrorist attack they should never pay for it or judged for (even though the attack has ties of the conflict because America been a pro-israel and was silent for the suffer of Palestinians but who cares because the whole attack and terrorism is disgusting)

 

Be honest what America has done to the Middle East and the world is way worse don’t act all innocent 

 

Now to be honest you should look on YouTube at least on this conflict it is no brainer Israel took a land that isn’t for them and been killing and humiliating them for the past 70 years whatever happened to israel is a fraction of what Palestinians have been suffering for their whole life (which is saddening me because of the innocent souls that’s getting in the middle of this) it’s sad the world is watching and doing nothing look now israel stopped every help to go for gaza literally they can’t have any sort of help for what??? Literally for what? They are suffering in their own land I dont understand how there’s two side for the conflict I tried to search and look for a reason why israel is a thing on the first place and I can’t find one just based on a religion that’s thousands years ago???

 

 

The issue that I have with this is that where I grew up in the US, it's very individualistic and not community based (I'd say this is true for much of the US). I base my judgement on what's right or wrong, but my INVOLVEMENT is the issue here which I do very much base on the entity/victim. 

 

I believe it's a lot easier for people who grew up in community driven cultures to rush to defense and aid of populations across the world unrelated to them, especially in situations like this where there's a conflict of interest (for myself internally). As someone who didn't grow up in a culture like that, it's pretty difficult for me to dissociate the population from their religious beliefs that go against my being and outwardly fight for them knowing they likely wouldn't do the same in reverse. 

 

I'm very aware and have stated in this thread that America has done some horrible things, in no context am I trying to act "innocent."

 

I was more hoping I was wrong or misled about how anti-american or homophobic the Islamic population (outside of the US) is that would allow thar roadblock to go away.

[sillycilla]

3 hours ago, State of Grace. said:

Yeah it was a voiceover / clickbait by @TheQuartening. The video itself is...  I wouldn't even put it past CNN to do it after the amount of fake news and propaganda they've been spreading.

 

Worth noting that this is what Palestinian journalists go through in comparison. 11 have been killed already, other injured, and some still missing.

 

 

Thank you!!! This makes me feel a little better. Sometimes I don’t know what to be believe anymore.

[Communion]

41 minutes ago, Gaia said:

I am not involved in the transaction regardless

By virtue of being an American, you are inherently involved via being part of the system funding the genocide itself. Bombs that drop on the heads of Palestinian families get to Israel via your tax dollars. Palestinian children killed are killed in your name by your government in the claim of defending you via expansionist foreign policy in the Middle East.

 

Every American has an inherent duty to rebuke and condemn a genocide they're already inherently both invested in and connected to.  As Americans, we bare responsibility for the brutality we both fund and enable no matter how many thousand miles away.

 

American policy in the Middle East is the nation's greatest failure of the last 50 years and Americans have to reconcile with the barbarism of our nation.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Communion

[sillycilla]

 

[sillycilla]

4 hours ago, Gaia said:

For some of the more educated girlies, I need some help contextualizing this for my own sake. As an American who's been following this for the past week, I have noticed about myself that while I can recognize that what Israel's government is doing is wrong and don't agree with it; I don't really have a strong sense of empathy that leads me to act on it for reasons below:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

As a gay American there are essentially 2 things I've grown up hearing my entire life (being a kid during 9/11): 

 

1. Islam tends to lean very anti-American (especially dealing with any radical groups)

2. Islam is extremely homophobic

 

Having this engrained into my head has made it admittedly very difficult to feel any sort of true empathy for the situation outside of the very obvious "killing people is bad" rhetoric. I keep thinking "would these people rush to save me as a gay American if somehow the roles were reversed and I was the one who needed help" and I'm not seeing them do it. Now, this could very much be false and I could be a victim of propaganda and not realize it. 

 

But there are 6 countries (that I know of) that have death as a punishment for homosexuality:

 

• Saudi Arabia (Majority Islamic)
• Iran (Majority Islamic)
• Yemen (Majority Islamic)
• Brunei (Majority Islamic)
• Nigeria (50% Islamic)
• Mauritania (Majority Islamic)

 

And in many other Islamic countries, it's still outlawed regardless including Gaza (or so I saw, not 100% sure). And when you look at public perception this is what you get

 

 

 

Virtually none of their population accepts my sexuality, more than half wouldn't accept me as a neighbor, and almost all don't believe society should accept my sexuality. 

 

It's been very difficult to advocate for a population that I do not feel would do the same for me. I've seen so many things about Muslims even protesting homosexuality in Western countries and causing issues. This is really leading to a mental road block for me knowing Palestine/Gaza is a Muslim state. Furthermore, this DEMAND that everyone NEEDS to support Palestine has rubbed me the wrong way for the same reason. Would they fight for me? I had similar issues with Ukraine last year.

 

I do believe Israel is going overboard and is no longer within any right of "self-defense" but it's still hard for me to actively support Palestine (in a sense of promoting on my own social media, protesting, etc.). The main reason I support Palestine passively is because of their large youth population.

 

I'm very much anti-occupation and anti-genocide from the perspective of the children affected but not necessarily pro-Palestine either. 

 

 

This is from a trans Jewish author. There is no such thing as the perfect victim. Also keep in mind there are queer Arabs and maybe seek their opinions. And  though Israel is more tolerant of lgbtq, marriage is still illegal.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by sillycilla

[ZeroSuitBritney]

HERE is a history of Israel's blatant racism against Arabs and Palestinians since illegally taking over their land:

 

 

 

Zionists will say "But Hamas" 

[Robert]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

By virtue of being an American, you are inherently involved via being part of the system funding the genocide itself. Bombs that drop on the heads of Palestinian families get to Israel via your tax dollars.

This! Sames goes for other countries supporting this such as UK/Aus and EU countries. They are using our taxes and our name to commit this atrocity and for that we should be outraged. 

 

If you support this then don't cry when Muslims are forced to come to your country as refugees as a direct result. 

[sillycilla]

Also, maybe listen to a queer Palestinian American/Canadian (not sure which one)

 

 

[DAP]

4 hours ago, Gaia said:

For some of the more educated girlies, I need some help contextualizing this for my own sake. As an American who's been following this for the past week, I have noticed about myself that while I can recognize that what Israel's government is doing is wrong and don't agree with it; I don't really have a strong sense of empathy that leads me to act on it for reasons below:

 

  Hide contents

As a gay American there are essentially 2 things I've grown up hearing my entire life (being a kid during 9/11): 

 

1. Islam tends to lean very anti-American (especially dealing with any radical groups)

2. Islam is extremely homophobic

 

Having this engrained into my head has made it admittedly very difficult to feel any sort of true empathy for the situation outside of the very obvious "killing people is bad" rhetoric. I keep thinking "would these people rush to save me as a gay American if somehow the roles were reversed and I was the one who needed help" and I'm not seeing them do it. Now, this could very much be false and I could be a victim of propaganda and not realize it. 

 

But there are 6 countries (that I know of) that have death as a punishment for homosexuality:

 

• Saudi Arabia (Majority Islamic)
• Iran (Majority Islamic)
• Yemen (Majority Islamic)
• Brunei (Majority Islamic)
• Nigeria (50% Islamic)
• Mauritania (Majority Islamic)

 

And in many other Islamic countries, it's still outlawed regardless including Gaza (or so I saw, not 100% sure). And when you look at public perception this is what you get

 

 

 

Virtually none of their population accepts my sexuality, more than half wouldn't accept me as a neighbor, and almost all don't believe society should accept my sexuality. 

 

It's been very difficult to advocate for a population that I do not feel would do the same for me. I've seen so many things about Muslims even protesting homosexuality in Western countries and causing issues. This is really leading to a mental road block for me knowing Palestine/Gaza is a Muslim state. Furthermore, this DEMAND that everyone NEEDS to support Palestine has rubbed me the wrong way for the same reason. Would they fight for me? I had similar issues with Ukraine last year.

 

I do believe Israel is going overboard and is no longer within any right of "self-defense" but it's still hard for me to actively support Palestine (in a sense of promoting on my own social media, protesting, etc.). The main reason I support Palestine passively is because of their large youth population.

 

I'm very much anti-occupation and anti-genocide from the perspective of the children affected but not necessarily pro-Palestine either. 

 

 

If you want an improved world then you must reckon with some sense of collective duty; that the cause is greater than your own experience as an individual, that your duty is selfless, and that you will collaborate with and, ideally, change people conditioned differently than you based on shared struggle/humanity. Because, ultimately, self-determination is a collective struggle. 

 

You are not wrong to question antiquated beliefs. But you must do so with an informed context. The problem with a liberal philosophy is that liberalism neuters people of their collective duty under false pretenses of virtue and egalitarianism (individualism). There is no analysis of power or institutions, nor a class consciousness that would explain the state of the world that people inherit and why it functions the way it does.

 

Modern Islam did not develop in a vacuum and neither did anti-American/Western rhetoric. They are direct consequences of US and British-backed fundamentalist Islamist regimes that emerged to A) quell anti-colonial struggles/communist states that were undermining hegemony through land reforms for peasants and B) destabilize the region from further threats of revolt. Communities were (and still are being) destroyed, and of course people were/are/will be radicalized by their homes being pillaged and their neighbors being dead or violated. Those are deeply traumatic experiences.

 

People do not have the time to contemplate or scrutinize culture or laws under active duress/state violence, much less anti-sodomy laws enacted by a British puppet state in 1936. They are merely surviving to their next meal, drink, sleep, or until they get the dignified life they should be entitled to.

 

I would implore you to read sis. There’s a host of literature on Palestine and similar anti-colonial struggles in Latin America (Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile, Argentina), Africa (Kenya, Rhodesia, Egypt, Libya), and Asia (Indonesia, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) that give context to the role imperial/settler states like Israel and the US play. 

[Vermillion]

 

[jakeisphat]

 

[GhostBox]

8 minutes ago, Espresso said:

 

💀

[Communion]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:53 PM, BeenTheShit said:

Apparently, there's some talk of a "Day of Jihad" tomorrow, and people are already doing crazy **** across the country. 

 

 

On 10/12/2023 at 7:01 PM, Gui Blackout said:

 

 

 

[DAP]

I just wanna say I appreciate everyone in here having the courage to rise up against oppression and stay on the Israeli state’s neck. Y’all been holding it down better than I ever could 

[Vermillion]

 

[Sergi91]

Biden will visit Israel on Wednesday 

[réveuse]

And I still do not know how anybody is taking the side of Israel. And the gays (some on this site) will try to tell you that supporting Palestine is homophobic.

 

 

[Vermillion]

So, the same deal as the U.S. troops in Syria and Ukraine currently then….ok. 

 

[bunnyeyes]

The Israel isn’t homophobic excuse crumbles the second you learn the IDF also purposely targets LGBTQ Palestinians and blackmails them into doing their work for them threatening to out them if they don’t.

[Aethereal]

Iran is asking China to intervene.  China is genociding her own Muslims she could care less. This is a sign that Iran probably wont intervene otherwise they would not be asking China for help.

[réveuse]

22 minutes ago, IvyTower said:

The Israel isn’t homophobic excuse crumbles the second you learn the IDF also purposely targets LGBTQ Palestinians and blackmails them into doing their work for them threatening to out them if they don’t.

This right here.

[GhostBox]

27 minutes ago, Espresso said:

 

This also may give the US more time to talk sense into Israel. Some of their actions have showed they listen when pressured by the US