FOCK Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriser Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 35 minutes ago, Communion said: The Israel that Zionists want cannot exist outside of being an apartheid state. So yes, to end apartheid would be to end Israel. Such is why it is important to include Rhodesia when drawing comparisons between South Africa and Israel. South Africa is always the easier or more appealing comparison point, since South Africa still exists and some people have a whitewashed version of how apartheid ended, but early settler texts show that Israelis modeled their own colony building off of the tactics of Rhodesia. It reminds us that vassal states do frequently end and no longer exist, without fear-mongering that nations are somehow people. Israel exists as a Zionist invention - the concept of a nation invented to fulfill the "need" for a supremacist state. It simply serves no one to pretend Israel can exist without subjugating the Palestinian people - even Zionists say it can't. This is just pure ideology and not actually based in anything beyond your own personal feelings and to justify your radical all or nothing, uncompromisng, binary thinking. Much easier to support a solution that is farfetched and will lead to more violence when you frame it as the only alternative to the violence of today. Obviously Israel has the ability to reform and change in the manner that South Africa did. You have no evidence of your claims beyond, what, the fact that a few zionists talk about things having to be this way? But that's not the point. Obviously right wingers who support Israel in its current form are going to say this is how it has to be I have no doubt Afrikaaners who loved apartheid might have made some parallell argument. Israel can withdraw from the West Bank & Gaza. It can dissolve the settlements. It can reform its ethnicity based laws to ensure proper equality for its non-Jewish citizens. Etc etc. You're welcome to argue that you don't think the above is very likely right now, and I would agree. I would also argue that the actions of Hamas have helped to erase the possibility of the above happening - but that's because they share your goals rather than mine. Right wingers in general, especially Israeli right wingers, have hampered peace at every turn. For the record, I would argue that Hamas isn't beyond reform either. The PLO is highly reformed from a once much more radical platform. Before Oct 7th there were sparse signs of Hamas moderating. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOCK Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 More of this sentiment from the Israeli population should be amplified, but it seems very risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Just now, Harrier said: This is just pure ideology and not actually based in anything beyond your own personal feelings "It's not realistic to do a secular Palestine! You radical antisemites just want the only Jewish state to not exist!" Quickly explain what "realistic" steps Israel would willingly do to: End its apartheid system Enfranchise all Palestinians There is no two state solution. People far more educated and informed than you and I have already said so. You're dedicated to feel-good idioms without any actual acknowledgement of material reality in front of you. You are clearly still pro-Israel and unable to actually accept Israel's existence is fundamentally rooted in supremacy and can't let go of some image of a beautiful Western flower amidst what must be a barren desert of Islamism in your mind. I mean, before the carpet bombing began, you literally painted Palestine as a violent Islamist society and framed Israelis as needing to be protected from Palestinians. Even now, you say "of course right-wingers will try to hamper peace" - meaning you think the idea of peace can include an ethno-state. It's ignorance to the reality that every government of Israel, no matter it's political alignment, has been united in its view that Israel is an ethno-state and must remain as such. The end of Israel will bring about peace. You're entertaining theoreticals that it'd be better if Ugandans were suffering this fate or that the amalgamation of the world's Jewish population into an incoherent settler-colonial force was somehow ever a justifiable cause. Come on. Historians of Palestine & Israel do not agree with you. Jewish leftists do not agree with you. Even those whose careers are dedicated to the preservation of human rights do not agree with you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Than A Melody Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 30 minutes ago, Harrier said: This is just pure ideology and not actually based in anything beyond your own personal feelings and to justify your radical all or nothing, uncompromisng, binary thinking. Much easier to support a solution that is farfetched and will lead to more violence when you frame it as the only alternative to the violence of today. Obviously Israel has the ability to reform and change in the manner that South Africa did. You have no evidence of your claims beyond, what, the fact that a few zionists talk about things having to be this way? But that's not the point. Obviously right wingers who support Israel in its current form are going to say this is how it has to be I have no doubt Afrikaaners who loved apartheid might have made some parallell argument. Israel can withdraw from the West Bank & Gaza. It can dissolve the settlements. It can reform its ethnicity based laws to ensure proper equality for its non-Jewish citizens. Etc etc. You're welcome to argue that you don't think the above is very likely right now, and I would agree. I would also argue that the actions of Hamas have helped to erase the possibility of the above happening - but that's because they share your goals rather than mine. Right wingers in general, especially Israeli right wingers, have hampered peace at every turn. For the record, I would argue that Hamas isn't beyond reform either. The PLO is highly reformed from a once much more radical platform. Before Oct 7th there were sparse signs of Hamas moderating. It's based on 75 years of history. Are you really this dense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriser Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 15 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said: It's based on 75 years of history. Are you really this dense? Okay, and Israel continuing to exist is also based in 75 years of history, so what's your point? I am operating from a standpoint of reaching peace with the most realistic solution. Two states has literally nearly happened, before it was undermined by a right wing Israeli assassination of PM Rabin. Nothing close to the fancifcul one state which a minority of Palestinians and an even tinier minority of Israelis support has ever been close to happening in that entire 75 year history, and seems even more distant today than it did a month ago. What exactly is the plan to convince all Jewish Israelis to abandon their state that, rightly or wrongly, most of them view as necessary for their own safety and protection? How do you contend with the many religious zealots on all sides opposed to a secular state in the holy land of all places? It just seems plainly obvious that reforming Israel is a much clearer path than ending its existence, unless we are talking about a disastrous regional war. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOSS Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Than A Melody Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Harrier said: Okay, and Israel continuing to exist is also based in 75 years of history, so what's your point? I am operating from a standpoint of reaching peace with the most realistic solution. Two states has literally nearly happened, before it was undermined by a right wing Israeli assassination of PM Rabin. Nothing close to the fancifcul one state which a minority of Palestinians and an even tinier minority of Israelis support has ever been close to happening in that entire 75 year history, and seems even more distant today than it did a month ago. There were thousands of years in which Israel didn't exist and people in that region without an enthostate. There's been no point in Israel's history in which it hasn't been enforcing apartheid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RihRihGirrrl Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Can a two state solution actually work without a militarized Palestinian Gov? And would Isreal (the U.S) ever allow that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
réveuse Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Brunette Ambition said: Lmao @Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Than A Melody Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, RihRihGirrrl said: Can a two state solution actually work without a militarized Palestinian Gov? And would Isreal (the U.S) ever allow that? Israel wants all the land. In fact, they'll likely push to annex Jordan next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RihRihGirrrl Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Just now, More Than A Melody said: Israel wants all the land. In fact, they'll likely push to annex Jordan next. I agree...they will not stop unless someone stops them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Israel is just a name. If the apartheid ends it does not matter if the progressive state is called Palestine or Israel. But it needs to start with a progressive Israeli movement itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Than A Melody Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, Aristotle said: Israel is just a name. If the apartheid ends it does not matter if the progressive state is called Palestine or Israel. But it needs to start with a progressive Israeli movement itself. Israel is not just a name... Israel is the name of the alleged Jewish kingdom in the same area and it has religious meaning, it was given "by God" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 45 minutes ago, Communion said: You're entertaining theoreticals that it'd be better if Ugandans were suffering this fate or that the amalgamation of the world's Jewish population into an incoherent settler-colonial force was somehow ever a justifiable cause. Come on. About the bolded part, Jews went through mass persecutions by Nazis, Stalin, Tsarist Russia, KKK, Christian Europe and many Islamic empires, them demanding a state of their own in some empty land as long as they don't harm anyone after all those years is not absurd. Kinda like LGBT safe zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Than A Melody Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Aristotle said: About the bolded part, Jews went through mass persecutions by Nazis, Stalin, Tsarist Russia, KKK, Christian Europe and many Islamic empires, them demanding a state of their own in some empty land as long as they don't harm anyone after all those years is not absurd. Kinda like LGBT safe zones. I understand the sentiment behind it, but going "so you've been persecuted by everyone so we're just gonna ship all of you, no matter where you come from, to a Jewish land, that you can govern on your own so you're not in the way of everyone else" is an antisemitic sentiment, deep down. The solution isn't to ship all Jews to an island. It's ... to not be antisemitic. I understand that this and saying "Israel needs to be dissolved" are utopia sentiments that won't happen. But that's what SHOULD happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClashAndBurn Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, Aristotle said: About the bolded part, Jews went through mass persecutions by Nazis, Stalin, Tsarist Russia, KKK, Christian Europe and many Islamic empires, them demanding a state of their own in some empty land as long as they don't harm anyone after all those years is not absurd. Kinda like LGBT safe zones. The ONLY reason the Zionist project existed was to fulfill the Armageddon prophecy by giving Jews control of the Holy Land. There was no peaceful option that was ever going to be deemed acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookinAssHittas Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Brunette Ambition said: Lmao @Bloo time for another perma ban ^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClashAndBurn Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Vice President Kamala Harris RATIOED 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted November 4, 2023 ATRL Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2023 That post equating all of Palestinians to terrorists led to a perma-ban. 8 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookinAssHittas Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 20 minutes ago, Bloo said: That post equating all of Palestinians to terrorists led to a perma-ban. Thank you so so so much 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HungryByTheBuffet Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Everytime I take a peek inside this thread be like 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAP Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostBox Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Harrier said: Okay, and Israel continuing to exist is also based in 75 years of history, so what's your point? I am operating from a standpoint of reaching peace with the most realistic solution. Two states has literally nearly happened, before it was undermined by a right wing Israeli assassination of PM Rabin. Nothing close to the fancifcul one state which a minority of Palestinians and an even tinier minority of Israelis support has ever been close to happening in that entire 75 year history, and seems even more distant today than it did a month ago. What exactly is the plan to convince all Jewish Israelis to abandon their state that, rightly or wrongly, most of them view as necessary for their own safety and protection? How do you contend with the many religious zealots on all sides opposed to a secular state in the holy land of all places? It just seems plainly obvious that reforming Israel is a much clearer path than ending its existence, unless we are talking about a disastrous regional war. 👏🏼 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloröx Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Zionists really think they can achieve one true peace nation by oppressing people via genocide/ethnic cleansing, thinking there's no retaliation. What kind of brain damage is this. Even Nazi is not this delusional 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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