Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Mast said: Because they're trans??? A lot of trans people experience both or either body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria. The former being the often debilitating experience that there is something fundamentally wrong with your body, the latter being that your assigned gender is different from the fender one perceives themselves to be or experience, and both of these can lead to long-lasting mental health effects on trans people (depression, anxiety, eating disorder). Although transitioning doesn't necessarily "cure" these experiences (you have to remember that trans people still experience transphobia like being perceived as their assigned gender even after transitioning), most trans people who decide to transition do report that their symptoms and self-worth do improve after transitioning. It is literally affirming to the person and how they perceive themselves inside. It has nothing to do with with just wanting to play dress-up; it is a lot more personal than that. Yes my point is that they experience body/gender dysmorphia because society has taught us that their specific gender can only fit into a box, and the way they feel inside does not fit into that box. We don't solve this by ignoring science, we solve it by getting rid of the imaginary box society has made.
Lady Claire Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, Mast said: TRLA gays being right-wing and reactionary yet again, aligning themselves with Republican talking points and then wondering why the U.S. keeps going to ****. Can't say I'm surprised. Y'all keep talking about "the left" when you ant even define what that means to y'all (hint, that's a term that conservatives have hijacked to refer to any ideology that's socially progressive). Y'all also keep overreacting like people are calling women "menstruators" to their face on a daily basis, which is not the case. Terms like "people who menstruate," "people who birth," etc are used specifically on the context of reproductive rights because THOSE ARE RIGHTS THAT CONCERN MORE THAN JUST CIS WOMEN. It really costs nothing to acknowledge that trans people exist. They are medically accurate terms. No one is forcing y'all to stop calling cis women "women," but we are asking that we are intentional and accurate as to what reproductive rights encompasses. No one is erasing women for fucks sake. if anything, the focus on language over, idk, the actual abolition of access to safe abortions is literally scapegoating the actual issue and the actual bad actors at hand, which are right-wingers who are currently in turbo mode trying to infuse our laws with their religious ideology when government and church are supposed to be separate. Liberals will be the end of us because y'all love to feign being progressive and at the end of the day adopt right-wing talking points such as the ones in this entire thread. Y'all make me sick, genuinely. How many times have y'all heard someone say "oh, they're a person who births" on casual day to day conversations? The answer is ******* never. Is is literally used 99.99% of the time in the context of reproductive rights only. And y'all are the same people who then go on to say that people "on the left" have fake outrage. Thank you
Sheep Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Papa said: You can't switch your sex, no matter what a person does, their sex will always remain the same, so that is the first point. You can't alter a persons dna to change their chromosomes, it is not something that can be changed. Secondly you say "gender they are internally", gender is a funny thing because it is made up by society, based on social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The gender they feel internally as you claim, is what they are forced to believe by what society deems acceptable for a male and female, you are proving my point. They are changing themsleves because society deems it unacceptable for a male to live out his gender in this way, so that must mean they are to switch into the box that society deems acceptable for that gender, which is female. These boxes should not exist and both sexes should be able to live their lives anywhere on a gender spectrum. What is your definition of woman? For me a woman is an adult female, none of the gender roles that society has placed on that word is something i partake in, it is linked to biology. I don’t interact with peoples chromosomes or female sex organs on a daily basis but glad to hear that you do so much that it’s the only way to define a woman in your opinion and gives you the authority to police other people’s identities, TERF. Good luck asking strangers on the street what their kitty looks like and dna test before you use feminine gendered pronouns. Edited July 5, 2022 by Century
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Brando said: Yes there's approximately 1500 trans men in the US ???????? Current polls show that just around 2% of adults identify as trans or non-binary. That would mean there are roughly 4M trans adult in the US.. not 1,500?? Do you honestly think there are less than 2,000 trans men in the US?? Unhinged posts about "the far left" and you're saying... this??
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Century said: I don’t interact with peoples chromosomes or female sex organs on a daily basis but glad to hear that you do so much that it’s the only way to define a woman in your opinion and gives you the authority to police other people’s identities, TERF. It's not what i define it is, it is science. These are facts by the laws of nature, we can't ignore reality
Abracadabra Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Papa said: You can't switch your sex, no matter what a person does, their sex will always remain the same, so that is the first point. You can't alter a persons dna to change their chromosomes, it is not something that can be changed. Secondly you say "gender they are internally", gender is a funny thing because it is made up by society, based on social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The gender they feel internally as you claim, is what they are forced to believe by what society deems acceptable for a male and female, you are proving my point. They are changing themsleves because society deems it unacceptable for a male to live out his gender in this way, so that must mean they are to switch into the box that society deems acceptable for that gender, which is female. These boxes should not exist and both sexes should be able to live their lives anywhere on a gender spectrum. What is your definition of woman? For me a woman is an adult female, none of the gender roles that society has placed on that word is something i partake in, it is linked to biology. Like I said, it has nothing to do with societal norms, or about a male not being comfortable to live as a feminine male, or a female not being comfortable being masculine, but you keep circling back to that because you seem obsessed with this idea of the societal construct of gender roles, when that has nothing to do with being trans. There are trans people who knew they were trans from 3 years old, before they had any clue about societal norms for men and women so please spare me that bullshit I think you're just transphobic so we probably aren't going to get very far discussing this...
Guilherme Make Love Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 The meltdowns, call a group of people ´´birthing people´´ is obviously dehumanized, and also reducing people [both cis and trans] to their genitals and organs. I understand that maybe it´s a practical way to have a conversation, but people who ended up offended being called this way is in their rights. In the end, is it really so hard to say ´´cis woman and trans men are suffering from this new abortion laws´´? It´s still inclusive but doesn´t really reduce or dehumanized anyone. People on twitter these days are too obsessed to find new words to put people on new boxes.
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Papa said: Yes my point is that they experience body/gender dysmorphia because society has taught us that their specific gender can only fit into a box What do you say to someone who is born with a ***** and who experiences psychological distress from that fact?
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Miichael said: Like I said, it has nothing to do with societal norms, or about a male not being comfortable to live as a feminine male, or a female not being comfortable being masculine, but you keep circling back to that because you seem obsessed with this idea of the societal construct of gender roles, when that has nothing to do with being trans. There are trans people who knew they were trans from 3 years old, before they had any clue about societal norms for men and women so please spare me that bullshit I think you're just transphobic so we probably aren't going to get very far discussing this... I swear i am not transphobic, i am the most leftie person you will ever meet and hate how this discussion has been hijacked by actual transphobic right wingers. I am speaking with what i deem to be correct and rational. You say it has nothing to do with societal norms but you are the one who said they need to match their gender, which is all about society. As for the 3 year old knowing they were trans, in my understanding that just means they don't fit into the gender roles assigned to their sex, there is nothing wrong with that and they shouldn't need to "transition" to anything, let them live their life without forcing them into the female box
Sheep Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Papa said: It's not what i define it is, it is science. These are facts by the laws of nature, we can't ignore reality Like I said in the last post: Good luck asking strangers on the street what their kitty looks like and dna test before you use feminine gendered pronouns. You’re totally doing women a favor, TERF. This anti-gender stance doesn’t work in the real world for anybody who identifies as a woman. Edited July 5, 2022 by Century
Vin Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Century said: Except there was clear malice in her tweet because it was an angered response to inclusive language, and not about using it all the time. You’re so willing to read everything into the responses to Bette and make wild accusations about attacking women but apparently don’t want to address the main topic of the tweet. I wonder why. I read the tweet and then this thread. The tweet sounded like she was responding to Roe v Wade. You're saying she was responding to something else. Maybe I don't have the full story. What "angered response to inclusive language" was she responding to. Source? ...Vin
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Communion said: What do you say to someone who is born with a ***** and who experiences psychological distress from that fact? It is a tragic situation that society has made them feel that way, they need therapy and counselling. It's like asking me what would you tell oli london when he feels psychological distress from seeing a white man in the mirror when he feels korean inside.
gatito Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Papa said: It's not what i define it is, it is science. These are facts by the laws of nature, we can't ignore reality the reality is, you’ve probably interacted with lots of trans people and you don’t even know it, and the only way you’d know for sure is if you pull down their pants and check out what’s between their legs is that really how you wanna live your life? cause that’d make you a creep and i pity you
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Papa said: Yes my point is that they experience body/gender dysmorphia because society has taught us that their specific gender can only fit into a box, and the way they feel inside does not fit into that box. We don't solve this by ignoring science, we solve it by getting rid of the imaginary box society has made. Gender is not an imaginary box. And the term is “gender dysphoria” and you should get that right if you are acting like some scientific expert.
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, gatito said: the reality is, you’ve probably interacted with lots of trans people and you don’t even know it, and the only way you’d know for sure is if you pull down their pants and check out what’s between their legs is that really how you wanna live your life? cause that’d make you a creep and i pity you I don't see the point you are trying to make. I will fully accept them as i would any other human, but i can't ignore reality to live in a fantasy world where science is thrown out of the window
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Vin said: What "angered response to inclusive language" was she responding to. Source? Again, the claim that the words "woman" or "women" have been removed from organizations that handle abortion rights is demonstratively false. It is objectively, by every sense of the word, not true. To make the claim is to lie.
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Papa said: It is a tragic situation that society has made them feel that way, they need therapy and counselling. It's like asking me what would you tell oli london when he feels psychological distress from seeing a white man in the mirror when he feels korean inside. That’s not a thing that people experience, gender dysphoria is and always has been. People have tried other options and gender transition is what has been found to be best in treating gender dysphoria.
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Papa said: I don't see the point you are trying to make. I will fully accept them as i would any other human, but i can't ignore reality to live in a fantasy world where science is thrown out of the window You are the one throwing science out of the window, though?
Sheep Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Vin said: I read the tweet and then this thread. The tweet sounded like she was responding to Roe v Wade. You're saying she was responding to something else. Maybe I don't have the full story. What "angered response to inclusive language" was she responding to. Source? ...Vin The source is the majority of the tweet being dedicated to imagined attacks on womanhood by gender neutral language. Only the first few words are about Roe v Wade. This is why this forum doesn’t like you.
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Papa said: It is a tragic situation that society has made them feel that way There is no evidence that dysphoria is rooted in society. Again, if someone is born with genitals of a certain type, and experiences physical discomfort over having said genitals, where is the influence of society? There is no societal influence here. We're not using any terms or words. We're talking about a child having been born with specific anatomy and experiencing physical and psychological distress from factually having that anatomy. What is your suggestion for that child? To force them to be permanently discomforted?
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, GraceRandolph said: That’s not a thing that people experience, gender dysphoria is and always has been. People have tried other options and gender transition is what has been found to be best in treating gender dysphoria. Maybe in our current society, but throughout society people did not feel the need to transition because they felt more feminine or masculine energies, there are many cultures and tribes in history where it was just accepted without the need to over complicate it.
AlanRickman1946 Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, Papa said: Yes my point is that they experience body/gender dysmorphia because society has taught us that their specific gender can only fit into a box, and the way they feel inside does not fit into that box. We don't solve this by ignoring science, we solve it by getting rid of the imaginary box society has made. Bingo
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, GraceRandolph said: You are the one throwing science out of the window, though? How? Sorry i am replying to like 100 people at the same time it is hard to keep track
Sugar-Rush Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Century said: The source is the majority of the tweet being dedicated to imagined attacks on womanhood by gender neutral language. Only the first few words are about Roe v Wade. This is why this forum doesn’t like you. "Imagined attacks"? Considering that childbirth is still exclusive to cis women 99.9% of the time, it's not really a stretch to say that gender neutral language is an attack on women. Or at the very least, Bette believes so. And I can respect her opinion. Edited July 5, 2022 by Sugar-Rush
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Papa said: Maybe in our current society, but throughout society people did not feel the need to transition because they felt more feminine or masculine energies, there are many cultures and tribes in history where it was just accepted without the need to over complicate it. Yeah because they did not have the technology to transition, but many cultures did recognize them as a third gender, or some form of transgender.
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