news Sex is biological fact, NHS declares

[Cheers]

I'm confused? I thought the argument was always sex = biological but gender = social construct 

[Headlock]

12 minutes ago, Digitalism said:

This is dumb.

People keep losing rights. 

I don't know about you but I want results and what people like you have achieved is more people being killed and society thinking it's ok. If people like you thought you were helping reality has shown that you have hurt the cause. 

The response to bigotry is not to recede to be polite, you get louder. Bigots did not become more so because trans people demanded rights, they always were that way. And they can go **** themselves. We did not secure rights as queer people by being polite, the gay rights movement was loud and at times violent. It didn't make more people homophobic, it just made homophobes louder in response. Would you ask gay rights activists in the 1960s to have a calm civilized conversation?

[Digitalism]

Just now, Headlock said:

The response to bigotry is not to recede to be polite, you get louder. Bigots did not become more so because trans people demanded rights, they always were that way. And they can go **** themselves. We did not secure rights as queer people by being polite, the gay rights movement was loud and at times violent. It didn't make more people homophobic, it just made homophobes louder in response. Would you ask gay rights activists in the 1960s to have a calm civilized conversation?

Tell that to the trans prople that might get killed now in jails because people like you made society ok to hate them. The hate is growing. Be for real

[Hurem]

I hate that the discussion has even reached the point where it's necessary to clarify that sex is a matter of biology. I detest that there were vocal groups fighting against this fact. When did it become acceptable to blatantly ignore facts? The trans community has truly suffered because of this approach, and I feel we've inadvertently made it so easy for right-wingers to incite animosity against our community, largely due to the rhetoric heavily pushed in the last year or two.

 

I am absolutely disgusted by the conservative wave currently sweeping the world, but I can't shake off the feeling that it's a reaction to the radical, and frankly nonsensical at times, rhetoric that was being pushed onto people. I see it mostly on the people that I'm surrounded in every day world, who are not well read on these issues. None of them are coming from a place of malice, but when something lacks common sense, it's very hard to get an "average" person on board.

[Headlock]

2 minutes ago, Digitalism said:

Tell that to the trans prople that might get killed now in jails because people like you made society ok to hate them. The hate is growing. Be for real

Girl. Trans people demanding rights did not make society hate them, trans people have always been hated by mainstream society. Trans people have been drastically more likely to be killed, whether in jail or not, before any of this current nonsense in the UK. The default to blaming everything on reactionary politics is beyond tired and not rooted in reality whatsoever, because as has already been stated, the majority of society does NOT care about this. It is a small minority of people who already hated trans people who are doing this, and you are deciding to concede to them.

[Digitalism]

1 minute ago, Headlock said:

Girl. Trans people demanding rights did not make society hate them, trans people have always been hated by mainstream society. Trans people have been drastically more likely to be killed, whether in jail or not, before any of this current nonsense in the UK. The default to blaming everything on reactionary politics is beyond tired and not rooted in reality whatsoever, because as has already been stated, the majority of society does NOT care about this. It is a small minority of people who already hated trans people who are doing this, and you are deciding to concede to them.

If you believe that hate hasn't increased exponentially in last few years you're blind and this conversation makes no sense. 

[IsidoraMarí]

We knew this though, that's the whole point of us trying to explain the difference between Gender and Sex. Also there's plenty of studies showing people with two X chromosomes can still be born male and the people with an XY chromosome could still be born female. Sex is a biological fact but that has nothing to do with Trans people it's just pointing out the obvious. That's why when people change their sex they're called transexuals and when people who don't change their sexual organs but transition are considered generically Transgender, which by definition means to act in an alternative way to cultural norms attributed to their assigned sex. 

[Kassi]

I mean, sure. But gender (i.e. man, woman) is still a construct, which has always been the point of the trans debate.

It should be no controversy that people can identify against their sex (male, female). It's a basic tenet of self-expression.

 

This declaration feels redundant.

[Relampago.]

18 minutes ago, Hurem said:

I hate that the discussion has even reached the point where it's necessary to clarify that sex is a matter of biology. I detest that there were vocal groups fighting against this fact. When did it become acceptable to blatantly ignore facts? The trans community has truly suffered because of this approach, and I feel we've inadvertently made it so easy for right-wingers to incite animosity against our community, largely due to the rhetoric heavily pushed in the last year or two.

 

I am absolutely disgusted by the conservative wave currently sweeping the world, but I can't shake off the feeling that it's a reaction to the radical, and frankly nonsensical at times, rhetoric that was being pushed onto people. I see it mostly on the people that I'm surrounded in every day world, who are not well read on these issues. None of them are coming from a place of malice, but when something lacks common sense, it's very hard to get an "average" person on board.

I get what you mean but if we flip the script, Conservatives have pushed their radical agenda onto me and my lifestyle as a gay man but that doesn't make me want to rally and start legislating the systemic oppression of them or enact any type of violence on them. And conservatives ignore facts just as much, but nonetheless, I do not try to harm them for their ignorance.

This is a pendulum swing. Conservatives pushed very hard against Trans people in all of modern history, so the pendulum swung back with Trans people and allies fighting back fiercely in response, and now the pendulum swings back to fight against a group of people who never wanted to start this fight in the first place but have been coerced into doing so. 

 

I'm not saying that trans people and allies should forgo facts, but to place any kind of burden on them for creating this mess ignores where the mess originated from— blind bigotry and hate. This doesn't even touch on the fact that people will take this as a fact and use that to ignore the notion that gender even exists, you can tell simply by how the statement refers to returning to "common sense".

 

Because you're right. Sex is a biological fact, and that's only important because people who are AFAB/AMAB need specific care with that important fact in mind. But that's not what the NHS is trying to do here clearly. There won't be specialized care for trans AFAB/AMAB people from this. It's an attempt to erase a very specific part of the population. It's very ugly and if that's justified because people misunderstand sex vs gender while trying to receive gender affirming care or anything of the like… I can't say that's a take that should be taken as logical in any way.

Edited April 30 by Relampago.

[metalheart]

GPs quietly being laid off meanwhile literally no one can get a doctor's appointment and this is the governments priority... I'm leaving this hellhole as soon as I can  

[Communion]

59 minutes ago, dumbsparce said:

Sex is a biological fact though. That's not up for debate. 

 

40 minutes ago, Hurem said:

I hate that the discussion has even reached the point where it's necessary to clarify that sex is a matter of biology.

 

28 minutes ago, IsidoraMarí said:

Sex is a biological fact but that has nothing to do with Trans people it's just pointing out the obvious. 

 

27 minutes ago, Kassi said:

I mean, sure. But gender (i.e. man, woman) is still a construct, which has always been the point of the trans debate.

55 minutes ago, Cheers said:

I'm confused? I thought the argument was always sex = biological but gender = social construct 

Are y'all are being funny? The entire point of the decision is that "sex is a biological fact" means to argue people can't change or modify their sex because it very strictly defines sex as only chromosomal sex, thus aiming to eliminate the idea that trans people can even exist.

 

Yes, gender is a social construct, but then the reality of transness is when one's identity and sex do not align and the process of making them align as best as possible (the process of relieving gender dysphoria). This argues sex cannot be modified (it might as well say "trans women as men") and thus trans people should be exclusively seen as their birth sex, even in social health situations like what ward someone would stay in.

Edited April 30 by Communion

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Digitalism said:

I said it back then and it's clear now.

Trying to impose things into society and cancelling people that disagree has only hurt the cause.

Hate keeps growing and people will only lose rights. I don't think there's nothing that can be done now since society shifted.

 

1 hour ago, robattack332 said:

This. Most people did not have any real negative thoughts on trans people until the left decided to start screaming against basic science. Sadly, the insanity created hate that was directed toward the trans community instead of the liberals and politicians trying to push these anti-science agendas. 

What an odd sentiment when the debate is just as heated in the US yet trans people have the full support of at least one party and continue racking up legal wins:

 

[shookspeare]

41 minutes ago, Hurem said:

I hate that the discussion has even reached the point where it's necessary to clarify that sex is a matter of biology. I detest that there were vocal groups fighting against this fact. When did it become acceptable to blatantly ignore facts? The trans community has truly suffered because of this approach, and I feel we've inadvertently made it so easy for right-wingers to incite animosity against our community, largely due to the rhetoric heavily pushed in the last year or two.

 

I am absolutely disgusted by the conservative wave currently sweeping the world, but I can't shake off the feeling that it's a reaction to the radical, and frankly nonsensical at times, rhetoric that was being pushed onto people. I see it mostly on the people that I'm surrounded in every day world, who are not well read on these issues. None of them are coming from a place of malice, but when something lacks common sense, it's very hard to get an "average" person on board.

you're right and you should say it, I can't believe I had to get to the second page to find this 

Edited April 30 by shookspeare

[Hurem]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

Are y'all are being funny? The entire point of the decision is to argue that "sex is a biological fact" means to argue people can't change or modify their sex because it very strictly defines sex as defined only as chromosomal sex, thus aiming to eliminate the idea that trans people can even exist.

But isn't that the whole point, because sex and gender are not the same thing? Sex being a biological fact doesn't eliminate the idea of trans people existing. We should strive to normalize the concept of individuals of either biological sex identifying with the gender typically associated with the opposite sex, by making sure to distinguish between sex and gender.

[Onyxmage]

So now we can just claim things to be facts based on our bigoted beliefs? In that case I say it's a FACT that straight people will be the death of this earth so what should we do about them?

[Communion]

22 minutes ago, Hurem said:

Sex being a biological fact doesn't eliminate the idea of trans people existing

Sex is not a biological fact as defined by one's chromosomes and the idea of such is nonscientific. Again, anyone hoping to suggest this is some good-intentioned factualism is ignoring that the conclusions the British government hopes to reach are not even rooted in scientific consensus.

 

The "sex is biological, gender is a social construct" framing popularized doesn't mean sex isn't malleable. It means sex is a biological construct vs gender a social one.

Sex is both biological and malleable. And I don't think the methods by which LGBTQ promote our existence matter when no other place is like the UK.

 

Maybe the UK is just a failed political system where any meaningful left was destroyed by fake antisemitism charges years ago for geopolitical purposes and which then degenerated the entire political "left" in the country to begin with and the catalyst for the UK to make such a hard-right shift on all social issues. 

 

It's why the "the left cause a backlash with cancel culture!!!" arguments are nonsensical. The UK lost its most meaningful leftist politician on the basis of a "cancel culture" smear campaign based on things that simply didn't end up being true. Any queer person shocked at Labour joining the Conservatives in demonizing LGBTQ people should probably ask themselves if they participated in stabbing Jeremy Corbyn in the back.

Edited April 30 by Communion

[Relampago.]

The way the same conservative talking points disguised as intelligent comments have been shut down several times in this thread but the parrots keep squawking.

 

Like, worst case scenario, we start ignoring sex as a concept entirely, then what? Are our meals going to get smaller? Are we going to be sent to agender conversion camps? I don't get it. What are you even fighting for? Being right on an internet forum while trans people continue to be attacked for existing?

 

Let me also add that one of the fundamental basics of science is that it is tentative. Even if sex is a biological fact, which I agree with, that could very much change with more research and time. To declare something as a unchangeable fact is inherently anti-science.

[Hurem]

28 minutes ago, Relampago. said:

I get what you mean but if we flip the script, Conservatives have pushed their radical agenda onto me and my lifestyle as a gay man but that doesn't make me want to rally and start legislating the systemic oppression of them or enact any type of violence on them. And conservatives ignore facts just as much, but nonetheless, I do not try to harm them for their ignorance.

This is a pendulum swing. Conservatives pushed very hard against Trans people in all of modern history, so the pendulum swung back with Trans people and allies fighting back fiercely in response, and now the pendulum swings back to fight against a group of people who never wanted to start this fight in the first place but have been coerced into doing so. 

I understand your point, but one of the reasons I really dislike conservatives is exactly because they choose to ignore facts on many occasions, which is a characteristic of an idiot. I don't think choosing to do the same makes us look better, nor does it make our chances of getting accepted any better (quite the opposite, I think it's working against us)

 

While I do agree that most social topics are a pendulum swing (one acts, the other reacts and so forth), I feel like the anti-trans legislations blew up as a reaction to the non-binary identities overtaking the trans question. Sure, there were always some extreme right wingers who were spewing hate against LGBT community, but in the past couple of years I feel they have gained momentum and more people are starting to turn their backs on the community - especially the trans folk. One must wonder what caused such strong reaction.

 

37 minutes ago, Relampago. said:

I'm not saying that trans people and allies should forgo facts, but to place any kind of burden on them for creating this mess ignores where the mess originated from— blind bigotry and hate. This doesn't even touch on the fact that people will take this as a fact and use that to ignore the notion that gender even exists, you can tell simply by how the statement refers to returning to "common sense".

I see why it might seem insensitive to place any responsibility on the our community, but social issues like this can't be seen as one-sided. If gender is indeed a social construct, doesn't that mean society has a hand in defining it? Whether we like it or not, we are the minority and we need to accept the fact that we will always have to take time to educate others, and convince them to get on our side (or at least not go against us). Based on my personal observations, I felt that as a society, we had progressed to accept genders as men, women, trans men, and trans women. However, when the idea of neither/all genders emerged in mainstream discourse, it seems like some people reverted to exclusively seeing gender as binary, which ultimately harmed trans men and women.

 

49 minutes ago, Relampago. said:

Because you're right. Sex is a biological fact, and that's only important because people who are AFAB/AMAB need specific care with that important fact in mind. But that's not what the NHS is trying to do here clearly. There won't be specialized care for trans AFAB/AMAB people from this. It's an attempt to erase a very specific part of the population. It's very ugly and if that's justified because people misunderstand sex vs gender while trying to receive gender affirming care or anything of the like… I can't say that's a take that should be taken as logical in any way.

While I'm not fully familiar with UK political landscape at the moment, I can understand that the "sex is a biological fact" is being weaponized to harm the trans community. That is disgusting and I certainly hope it gets corrected eventually. What I'm also hoping is for our community to do any kind of self-reflection to see how it was possible to get to the point of people turning against us. Because I don't think it does us any favor to be ignorant and pretend this sort of hate wave came out of nowhere.

[Headlock]

1 hour ago, Digitalism said:

If you believe that hate hasn't increased exponentially in last few years you're blind and this conversation makes no sense. 

Do you genuinely believe more people hate trans people currently compared to 10 years ago? 

[frankvert]

Oh the they/thems are gonna be so pressed 

[Relampago.]

6 minutes ago, Hurem said:

I understand your point, but one of the reasons I really dislike conservatives is exactly because they choose to ignore facts on many occasions, which is a characteristic of an idiot. I don't think choosing to do the same makes us look better, nor does it make our chances of getting accepted any better (quite the opposite, I think it's working against us)

 

While I do agree that most social topics are a pendulum swing (one acts, the other reacts and so forth), I feel like the anti-trans legislations blew up as a reaction to the non-binary identities overtaking the trans question. Sure, there were always some extreme right wingers who were spewing hate against LGBT community, but in the past couple of years I feel they have gained momentum and more people are starting to turn their backs on the community - especially the trans folk. One must wonder what caused such strong reaction.

 

I see why it might seem insensitive to place any responsibility on the our community, but social issues like this can't be seen as one-sided. If gender is indeed a social construct, doesn't that mean society has a hand in defining it? Whether we like it or not, we are the minority and we need to accept the fact that we will always have to take time to educate others, and convince them to get on our side (or at least not go against us). Based on my personal observations, I felt that as a society, we had progressed to accept genders as men, women, trans men, and trans women. However, when the idea of neither/all genders emerged in mainstream discourse, it seems like some people reverted to exclusively seeing gender as binary, which ultimately harmed trans men and women.

 

While I'm not fully familiar with UK political landscape at the moment, I can understand that the "sex is a biological fact" is being weaponized to harm the trans community. That is disgusting and I certainly hope it gets corrected eventually. What I'm also hoping is for our community to do any kind of self-reflection to see how it was possible to get to the point of people turning against us. Because I don't think it does us any favor to be ignorant and pretend this sort of hate wave came out of nowhere.

I get what you're trying to say but I feel as though some of it is misguided by narratives that are pushed by people that don't have, and never had, any intention of actual acceptance of trans people, binary or non-binary.

 

It is never a legitimate stance to say that because someone cancelled you that you suddenly adopt hateful beliefs in response. If someone did not want to explain to you why they painted the inside of their house red, no logical person would go and burn the house down in response because it does not affect them. If someone judged you for not praising people who painted the inside of their house red, no logical person would then join a movement to make painting the inside of your house red illegal. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

The reality of the pendulum swing is that it's actually a response to trans and queer people in general getting a crumb of human rights for once and a louder crowd of hate coming out to protest that because they're bitter that queer people want holistic rights and simply tossing a few wins at them was not enough. In addition to that, trans people are used as a boogeyman to distract people from actual problems. 

 

Trans people are not responsible for inflation. They are not responsible for world affairs. They are not responsible for an immigration crisis. They are not responsible for climate change. And yet, there is more action against them than any of these things that actually cause people harm because as long as there's a scapegoat for people to point at, then the people on top always win. To my knowledge, there is a shortage of doctors in the UK, leading to people in general not being able to receive care. THAT is a serious problem, but again, has nothing to do with trans people. Regardless of facts and debates around them, it's all a moot point. No one actually cares once you get down to it, they're just made to believe they do.

 

Again, I'm not saying that trans people and allies are perfect. But when a portion of the population is so small and is made to be such a big deal, I can't fathom how the responsibility to educate people, most of which wouldn't care to learn in the first place because no one has the time, would fall on such a minimal part of the population. It's just not realistic. The reality is people need to leave one another alone and stop persecuting minorities because the minority population is so small they don't have the power to stop anything themselves. It's all a distraction and goads people into believing that they hate something they couldn't care less about otherwise.

 

And lastly, society does determine gender which is why we have to fight to get society to understand that gender is one's personal autonomy. It does not harm people other than confusing them. And lots of things confuse people. Economics, politics, science, math, but that does not mean people should start killing economists or scientists in their confusion. Like everything else, jus shrug and move on rather than adopt hateful ideology that doesn't have any real basis other than to be angry at something that will never help anyone.

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, frankvert said:

Oh the they/thems are gonna be so pressed 

This is kind of the perfect encapsulation about so-called concern trolling over nonbinary people and how reinforcing cisheteronormativity hurts binary trans people, like... mama, the main people this is going to hurt are explicitly binary trans people. You're rejoicing at the idea of trans women placed in male hospital wards? 

[dumbsparce]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

 

 

 

Are y'all are being funny? The entire point of the decision is that "sex is a biological fact" means to argue people can't change or modify their sex because it very strictly defines sex as only chromosomal sex, thus aiming to eliminate the idea that trans people can even exist.

 

Yes, gender is a social construct, but then the reality of transness is when one's identity and sex do not align and the process of making them align as best as possible (the process of relieving gender dysphoria). This argues sex cannot be modified (it might as well say "trans women as men") and thus trans people should be exclusively seen as their birth sex, even in social health situations like what ward someone would stay in.

It is a medical fact that you can not change you sex. You can alter it sure, but your chromosomes will always remain the same. That's not to say that an XY person can't live their life as a woman and be treated and respected as such but it's this exact rhetoric of yours that refuses to align with logic and scientific facts that has lead to the rampant transphobia we see in the world right now.

[frankvert]

4 minutes ago, Communion said:

This is kind of the perfect encapsulation about so-called concern trolling over nonbinary people and how reinforcing cisheteronormativity hurts binary trans people, like... mama, the main people this is going to hurt are explicitly binary trans people. You're rejoicing at the idea of trans women placed in male hospital wards? 

Um sure whatever that means 

[suburbannature]

Cool, now do gender