discussion These past few months has really sobered me on any sort of leftism.

[Communion]

2 hours ago, JanStan said:

The truth is just do your own research and don't let the leftist bullies tell you who you are.

So you agree - people shouldn't be bullied into voting for someone and their vote is the result of issues that personally impact them and weigh have on their heart and mind...like genocide. 

[GraceRandolph]

On 4/3/2024 at 10:09 AM, Kimbra said:

To see leftists parrot anti-semetic talking points and deny the danger of radical islamists in real time is extremely eye-opening. I used to consider myself a progressive but I need to move to the center because I can't fall into this anti-US dogmatic doom spiral anymore. It's like everyone is waiting for a rapture (late-stage capitalism) that is never coming. It's so culty. It's no different from q-anon.

 

[Anthinos]

You can think what you want about Islam but what is happening in Gaza at the moment is simply inhumane and I say that as someone who has been on Israel's side in the past. 

 

And what is the alternative? Look at the right-wing parties. I'm glad that as a homosexual person I don't live in Russia and if it goes on like this this kind of politics will also happen in western countries. I constantly hear criticism against left-wing parties but rarely against right-wing parties (at least in this form). The right are no less crazy and extreme than some of the online left. But unlike the online left, they have real power and win elections. Here in Europe, the right-wing and far-right parties win election after election, but for many so-called "progressives" that doesn't seem to be a big problem. The internet is not real life.

Edited April 4 by Anthinos

[DAP]

If you're more offended by confrontation than the circumstance that would compel that reaction, then that says more about how vapid your beliefs are than "q'anoned leftists".  

[Relampago.]

My only gripe with leftists, and this isn't all of them, is when it becomes an argument about who can be the most morally correct. But at its core, I feel leftist politics are the most grounded in realistic solutions. Everything else is operating in a world that's very quickly changing and won't be here for much longer. Progressive politics are our future, and we can choose to have a transition with cooperation and community or one that's forced on us by forces far beyond humanity's control. It can be easy or hard, and I continue to hope for the former. 

[GraceRandolph]

The last few months have really sobered me about any moderate liberals who excuse war crimes.

 

 

[Harrier]

The above is exactly the point the OP raises

Attempt to disagree with strident leftists in any way, introduce any nuance, argue an alternative solution = excusing war crimes, pro genocide, zionist etc. Cynically use the picture of this gorgeous young girl who was tragically murdered in some attempt to score political points against a random people you don't even know. Because of their own extremism, they can't see how sick and twisted that is

 

This chronically online, destructive and unproductive fringe movement consisting entirely of communists and islamists under 35, at this point has no resemblance to the progressiveism of Bernie 2016.

[ThousandMiles]

[GraceRandolph]

54 minutes ago, Harrier said:

The above is exactly the point the OP raises

Attempt to disagree with strident leftists in any way, introduce any nuance, argue an alternative solution = excusing war crimes, pro genocide, zionist etc. Cynically use the picture of this gorgeous young girl who was tragically murdered in some attempt to score political points against a random people you don't even know. Because of their own extremism, they can't see how sick and twisted that is

 

This chronically online, destructive and unproductive fringe movement consisting entirely of communists and islamists under 35, at this point has no resemblance to the progressiveism of Bernie 2016.

What is the alternative solution you are arguing for? And are leftists opposing genocide really sick and twisted, or are the actions of the US government?

 

[Communion]

6 hours ago, Harrier said:

Attempt to disagree with strident leftists in any way, introduce any nuance, argue an alternative solution = excusing war crimes, pro genocide, zionist etc

For everyone reading, this user quite literally - despite being cis - recently argued that LGBTQ people and groups should maybe give up on referring to trans women as women and trans men as men "to make it easier for cis people to accept trans people". That we re-assert sex before gender in referring to trans people, emphasizing a person is female even if he identify as a man, to ease cis people's discomfort.

 

I don't WANT to see liberal users slide into reactionary beliefs. It's upsetting when it does occur. But it also is important to recognize how liberalism - a rejection of leftism - leads one down that path to begin with by rejecting a material understanding of the world.

  

On 5/1/2024 at 4:38 AM, Harrier said:

This is horrible, but I have to try and remain hopeful there is some kind of path through this thinking towards accepting gender difference/non conformity within a binary sex framework

 

If there is this refusal to accept trans people within their identified sex category - which seems to be where things are going particularly in the UK - perhaps there needs to be room for a  'males who are women' or 'females who are men' conception with gender and sex clearly delineated. Perhaps this is what we need to be arguing for? I know a lot of trans people find this framing uncomfortable or invalidating though so I don't know im spitballing

"Nuance" and "finding common ground" here is rejecting not only the objectively most effective strategies queer people have had to expand and gain our rights (look at the rights trans people have gained across the world by reinforcing the gender identity articulation and gender as an innate sense of self), but also outright rejects scientific consensus that sex is an un-objective biological construct and not some immalleable fact. 

 

I don't think there is anything more sobering to the shortcomings of liberalism than to see liberals begin to make room for and defend the suggestion that somehow gender is "an ideology" and not an innate feeling, the intent by the people they want to make nuance for is to claim trans people are not real. 

 

I get affluent liberals will always have aversion to recognizing all realities as intersecting with class (see: many suburbanites being okay with trans people but not wanting to pay for their healthcare under Medicare For All) but the throwing of trans people under the bus - like as both liberals online and famous liberal commentators (like Ana Kasparian) seem to be doing - is where I draw the line as a queer leftist.

 

Liberals decry and expect leftists to reject reactionary fractions that pop up under the banner of socialism yet themselves creep more and more to a right-wing, reactionary ideological place as time goes on. 

Edited May 2 by Communion

[Harrier]

36 minutes ago, Communion said:

For everyone reading, this user quite literally - despite being cis - recently argued that LGBTQ people and groups should maybe give up on referring to trans women as women and trans men as men "to make it easier for cis people to accept trans people". That we re-assert sex before gender in referring to trans people, emphasizing a person is female even if he identify as a man, to ease cis people's discomfort.

 

I don't WANT to see liberal users slide into reactionary beliefs. It's upsetting when it does occur. But it also is important to recognize how liberalism - a rejection of leftism - leads one down that path to begin with by rejecting a material understanding of the world.

  

"Nuance" and "finding common ground" here is rejecting not only the objectively most effective strategies queer people have had to expand and gain our rights (look at the rights trans people have gained across the world by reinforcing the gender identity articulation and gender as an innate sense of self), but also outright rejects scientific consensus that sex is an un-objective biological construct and not some immalleable fact. 

 

I don't think there is anything more sobering to the shortcomings of liberalism than to see liberals begin to make room for and defend the suggestion that somehow gender is "an ideology" and not an innate feeling, the intent by the people they want to make nuance for is to claim trans people are not real. 

 

I get affluent liberals will always have aversion to recognizing all realities as intersecting with class (see: many suburbanites being okay with trans people but not wanting to pay for their healthcare under Medicare For All) but the throwing of trans people under the bus - like as both liberals online and famous liberal commentators (like Ana Kasparian) seem to be doing - is where I draw the line as a queer leftist.

 

Liberals decry and expect leftists to reject reactionary fractions that pop up under the banner of socialism yet themselves creep more and more to a right-wing, reactionary ideological place as time goes on. 

thank you for proving my point so perfectly bestie with this hyperbolic multiple paragraph meltdown over me spitballing about how to best handle the rapid series of victories terfism is achieving in the UK/elsewhere. and my point was about the distinction between male/man female/woman (ie gender and sex) though of course you completely ignore that in an attempt to make me sound worse. And then introduce many additional facets i didnt talk about. did I say any of that **** about constantly asserting a trans woman's maleness etc? no lmao. you just make **** up

 

in the post i say I'm not sure/thinking out loud. But - as I say in this thread - you jump down everyone's throat to villainise them literally the moment they say anything that doesn't conform to the leftist activist 'party line', so to speak. though from a communist such as yourself, this is to be expected - I'm sure you'd love nothing more than to send us libs to the gulag 

[Communion]

57 minutes ago, Harrier said:

in the post i say I'm not sure/thinking out loud.

Yet your entire worldview and forum operandi is that those on the left who brainstorm that maybe things like liberal Western world order aren't working for goals like Palestinian liberation or helping the Global South develop are "tankies, campists, and Islamists" (come on the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe).

 

You proved exactly what I said. You have no issue flailing about in hysterics over what you deem to be reactionary fringes of the left, yet then frame your behavior that no differently makes way for and excuses reactionary fringes in liberalism as reasonable. In fact, you defend this platforming of ideas as "seeking nuance".

 

Why do you approach rich white British cis people hating trans people as requiring the left to give space "to ideas we may not like" and be self-critical and change strategies that give some rope to those coming from a place of bigotry, yet reject it when one proposes that maybe Hamas has some credibility and the support of most Palestinians to that the Western liberal world has to come to terms with accepting them as a fixture in any solution, no matter what faux-outrage or moralizing one has over "Islamism"? It's blatant Western chauvinism and a double standard.

 

You only want nuance where it can work in your worldview. When anything falls outside of your worldview, you take no issue with generalizations and fringe moralizing you accuse others of. It's bullying to accuse you of enabling harm to trans people but then you have no hesitations in suggesting those who disagree with the existence of a theocratic ethno-state are ~jihad supporters~?

Edited May 2 by Communion

[Communion]

In fact, this strain of reactionary liberalism is so pervasive in chronically online liberals that I'm sure one peak in the OP's post history will show me the same, and well..

 

On 10/13/2023 at 1:07 PM, Kimbra said:

I used to defend these people hoping they would eventually assimilate and practice according to the laws of the country they reside but they absolutely refuse to secularize. Deport them all.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 11:09 AM, Kimbra said:

To see leftists parrot anti-semetic talking points and deny the danger of radical islamists in real time is extremely eye-opening. I used to consider myself a progressive but I need to move to the center because I can't fall into this anti-US dogmatic doom spiral anymore. It's like everyone is waiting for a rapture (late-stage capitalism) that is never coming. It's so culty. It's no different from q-anon.

*white British cis women having so much free time that they've decided eliminating trans people is their new movement*

Liberals: "We need to not be so judgemental and figure out how to engage with ideas we may not like to hear. The left must be pragmatic and optimize our strategies around common ground. We have to make room for nuance. Make room for difficult conversations. The world isn't black and white."

 

*Palestinians being literally rounded up and then bombed to the tune of tens of thousands dead*

Liberals: "You want me to support anything that leaves KHAMAS in power? Living under ISLAMISM is surely a worst fate than living undet Zionism. I am not going to be bullied into supporting JIHADISTS!!! I DO NOT SUPPORT TERRORISTS!!!!"

 

Shut up. 

[ClashAndBurn]

It's the way liberals like @Harrier don't sound any different from Tom Cotton to me

 

But yes, the left are the extremists wanting to march liberals off to gulags when… this is actually the reality:

 

 

[Harrier]

3 hours ago, Communion said:

Yet your entire worldview and forum operandi is that those on the left who brainstorm that maybe things like liberal Western world order aren't working for goals like Palestinian liberation or helping the Global South develop are "tankies, campists, and Islamists" (come on the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe).

 

You proved exactly what I said. You have no issue flailing about in hysterics over what you deem to be reactionary fringes of the left, yet then frame your behavior that no differently makes way for and excuses reactionary fringes in liberalism as reasonable. In fact, you defend this platforming of ideas as "seeking nuance".

 

Why do you approach rich white British cis people hating trans people as requiring the left to give space "to ideas we may not like" and be self-critical and change strategies that give some rope to those coming from a place of bigotry, yet reject it when one proposes that maybe Hamas has some credibility and the support of most Palestinians to that the Western liberal world has to come to terms with accepting them as a fixture in any solution, no matter what faux-outrage or moralizing one has over "Islamism"? It's blatant Western chauvinism and a double standard.

 

You only want nuance where it can work in your worldview. When anything falls outside of your worldview, you take no issue with generalizations and fringe moralizing you accuse others of. It's bullying to accuse you of enabling harm to trans people but then you have no hesitations in suggesting those who disagree with the existence of a theocratic ethno-state are ~jihad supporters~?

I have nothing really to say to this beyond to note that your consistent attempts to throw the "chronically online" insult back at others is pretty funny considering your enormous post count - many of which are multi paragraph long oddesseys with many quotes etc - and your quirky habit of pulling up other people's post histories at the drop of a hat. Lets not sister

 

I'm a schoolteacher with busy job - i simply dont have the time that I used to, and it was a mistake turning you off ignore to respond to this post. ciao

[Communion]

35 minutes ago, Harrier said:

I have nothing really to say to this beyond to note that your consistent attempts to throw the "chronically online" insult back at others is pretty funny considering your enormous post count - many of which are paragraph long oddesseys with many quotes etc - and your quirky habit of pulling up other people's post histories at the drop of a hat. Lets not sister

 

Im a schoolteacher with busy job - i simply dont hav the time that I used to, and it was a mistake turning you off ignore to respond to this post. ciao

Of course you'd refused to respond when given the chance to explain views you're not even denying that you have.

 

Again, you have no issue demonizing leftists who seek nuance within foreign policy and that the world isn't black and white aka America = good and the Global South = bad. You at one point were calling a member from Jerusalem who wanted a one state secular Palestine "blood thirsty" because you felt comfortable dismissing their hopes for their home and finger-wagging that any future they'd want would be taken over by "Islamists". 

 

But then if I point out there's material harm in a teacher parroting reactionary views - like the unscientific claim that puberty blockers contained uninvestigated risks for young people, like you once expressed - you would and have claimed such as outrageous and slanderous. 

 

Left-punching = Good, reasonable, pragmatic, etc.

Punching right = Bad, "bullying", "fringe radicals"

 

Even now you resort to personal attacks when asked about your past comments accusing people of supporting terrorism. I am literally an atheist. I think It's fringe and radical for you to suggest me not supporting a nation built on the idea of a perpetual ethnic majority makes me so. I am not a terrorist. I am not a jihadist. I am not an Islamist. Let alone antisemitic (odd that accusatory tones are fine when the OP does it to punch left). These suggestions and left punching are absurd. 

Edited May 2 by Communion

[Kassi]

I feel you OP. I snapped out of in 2016 after Bernie (who had the same position as Hillary on 98% of issues) lost and they invented some of the most illogical arguments to trash her.

 

Along with that, they started the "rigged" discourse. Remember before it was Trump and MAGA, it was Bernie and his Bros. They were the original election deniers. 
 

Once you realize that they're the same side of a horseshoe, you can't unsee it. Like the far-right, they hate democracy and dream about bringing totalitarianism to America. Both the right wing and left wing extremists in the US share a unified field theory of hate.

[WeFoundWill]

we can tell...

[WeFoundWill]

14 hours ago, Harrier said:

The above is exactly the point the OP raises

Attempt to disagree with strident leftists in any way, introduce any nuance, argue an alternative solution = excusing war crimes, pro genocide, zionist etc. Cynically use the picture of this gorgeous young girl who was tragically murdered in some attempt to score political points against a random people you don't even know. Because of their own extremism, they can't see how sick and twisted that is

 

This chronically online, destructive and unproductive fringe movement consisting entirely of communists and islamists under 35, at this point has no resemblance to the progressiveism of Bernie 2016.

this is absolutely untrue and any true leftist would argue that we should stop everything and sit down and talk. 

[lostcause]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:56 AM, GraceRandolph said:

What is the alternative solution you are arguing for? And are leftists opposing genocide really sick and twisted, or are the actions of the US government?

 

Let's maybe avoid reposting infographics produced by obvious propaganda organizations. Doing so will only work against you in the eyes of anyone who isn't already 100% on board with your perspective, and craters your credibility.

 

Euro-Med Human rights is an obvious vehicle for propaganda, having never once disclosed financial records detailing from whom/where they source their funding. No credible non government organization worth their salt acts with such obfuscation. 
Euro-Med was founded by Ramy Abdu, who also "was the assistant director and Palestine Office Manager for Council for European Palestinian Relations, an organisation described by the Independent as "a Belgian non-profit organisation that lobbies on behalf of the Hamas-led Gaza Government."

The founder and chairman of the organization whose infographic you are parroting is an operative for Hamas. Don't conflate genuine pro-Palestinian activists with Hamas propagandists, the two are incongruous. 

[Kassi]

Leftist need to live more in reality. Tbh

[Miss Show Business]

The swiftness of the left of supporting BLM to telling Jewish scholars to "go back to their country" is shocking and appalling. Many have already said it better than me so I'll just leave it at that.

[GraceRandolph]

13 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said:

The swiftness of the left of supporting BLM to telling Jewish scholars to "go back to their country" is shocking and appalling. 

Which leftist said this?

[Miss Show Business]

2 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

Which leftist said this?

Leftists on college campuses, apparently:

 

 

 

[Carla Rosón]

@Communion I'm out of the loop with most of US and EU politics but just out of genuine curiosity, do you suggest having Trump on a 2nd term would be less bad than more Biden?

Edited May 4 by Carla Rosón