news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Aethereal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel–Hamas_war

Per Palestine:^[a]

925 killed 4,690 wounded^[c] 200,000 displaced^[11]

 

Per Israel:

1,200+ killed^[d][28] 3,400 wounded^[29] 200+ abducted^[e][28]

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Aristotle

[Glam]

9 minutes ago, AMIT said:

You're an absolute moron.

 

OT: Free Palestine.

I'd rather be a moron than a terror apologist.

[Dan81]

11 hours ago, ProudLBS said:

Those are still alive at least.

 

Casualties are inevitable during wars.

You are disgusting , cruel and cold hearted bitçh reported 

[AMIT]

1 minute ago, Glam said:

I'd rather be a moron than a terror apologist.

 

No one here is condoning terrorists (apart from zionism supporters in here defending Israel's right to ''defend'' itself, I guess), but you clearly are not ready for a nuanced discussion about this subject and I hope any and everyone that stumbles upon this thread sees that. 

[Glam]

1 minute ago, AMIT said:

 

No one here is condoning terrorists (apart from zionism supporters in here defending Israel's right to ''defend'' itself, I guess), but you clearly are not ready for a nuanced discussion about this subject and I hope any and everyone that stumbles upon this thread sees that. 

Llike I said I know firsthand how the Venezuelan regime is criminal, and it's clear as day that the North Korean regime is too. If those are your biggest allies then you have to be a criminal too.

 

I have nothing against Palestine but Hamas is a criminal organization that would kill every single citizen from Israel if they had the chance. That's who you are defending.

[Riverbank]

It's literally embarrassing and beyond gross how certain posters here are running with any tweet they can find so that they can fulfill their conspiracy theory fantasies. People haven't even moved on from the terrible events that just happened, people in bomb shelters being massacred, foreign workers being killed, women and elderly being held captive and a literal footage of a kid having his throat cut... all of which have been broadcasted for the entire world to see. I'm curious to know why those posters weren't around when the world was watching all of that unfold in real time.

 

I can't even be bothered to quote them, but several posts on the last page will age like milk as the story develops. The initial report claimed that 40 dead babies were decapitated, then it changed to 40 dead children under 2 years old were murdered in their cribs, and it will keep changing until the soldiers are done clearing that Kibbutz, which is literally what the journalist stated in her tweet. And the casualties might even be worse than that for all we know.

[FlyPirate]

2 minutes ago, Glam said:

Llike I said I know firsthand how the Venezuelan regime is criminal, and it's clear as day that the North Korean regime is too. If those are your biggest allies then you have to be a criminal too.

 

I have nothing against Palestine but Hamas is a criminal organization that would kill every single citizen from Israel if they had the chance. That's who you are defending.

Please do some research and stop comparing any of those regimes/conflicts with each other or Israel/Palestine. 

[State of Grace.]

After catching up with the thread, I want to say once again that nobody wants to see innocent civilians getting killed, and I wish we didn't have to see videos of literal children (Palestinian and Israeli) being murdered like that. No one is exonerating Hamas. I thought it goes without saying, but we have to keep repeating it.

 

That being said, you really can't claim that you "want peace" and still support Israel in the same breath, or fail to see that all of what's happening now is a result of Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. If you want peace and want violence to end, you don't look at the symptoms, you address the root cause which is the decades of oppression that preceded this. Hamas exists because of Israel, not the other way around. Another important detail that many people seem to forget is that Israel literally backed and funded Hamas in the 80s as a way to combat and tackle the more secular Fatah/PLO. It was a classic divide/conquer policy in hopes that religious extremism would delegitimize the entire cause and the idea of a Palestinian state. They have obviously found value in this because Hamas = an excuse for collective punishment and retaliation.

 

Israel has turned Gaza into the largest open-air prison in the world and has subjected Palestinians there to sub-human living conditions, daily humiliation, violent series of massacres, and human rights abuses for years. The pick-and-choose approach that many users on this site like doesn't work here. There is an occupier (Israel) and an occupied land (Palestine). There is an oppressor (Israel) and an oppressed (Palestinians) side and no amount of gaslighting or defense of an apartheid regime shrouded in claims of being "against antisemitism!", "against terrorism!", or "for women and gay rights!" will ever change this fact. 

 

I'm sorry (not sorry) to burst your bubble, but you are really not more intelligent if you keep both-sidesing a conflict where only one side has the ability to cut basic life utilities and systemically starve millions, and the other side is trapped inside facing constant massacres and being used as an experimental ground for new weapons. One side is imposing an apartheid regime. Two can't. This is an inherently flawed position and being neutral is just as bad as supporting the oppressor, even if your "intentions are good" or claim that you want "peace for everyone".

 

There’s also no shortage of condemnation of Hamas by media outlets internationally, but the absolute silence about Israel's medieval tactics and the last few decades of brutality and abuse against Palestinian citizens leads to this illusion that the Hamas attacks were unprovoked.

 

Yes, innocent civilians dying is absolutely horrific. But do you know what’s even more horrific? The longest-running military occupation in history. 

 

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

[airplane]

9 minutes ago, Glam said:

I have nothing against Palestine but Hamas is a criminal organization that would kill every single citizen from Israel if they had the chance. That's who you are defending.

The IDF is also a terrorist organisation that has killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian’s, took over their land and continues to do so. Make it make sense

[poki]

CNN says up to 150 hostages in Gaza, at least 20 of which are Americans. Could be more.

[Capris Groove]

17 hours ago, Kassi said:

The reason it behooves us to understand this point is because we can’t do anything about the past.

 

Spanish “owned” 1/3 of the US, French owned another third, the British the last third, natives were collateral in the scramble for power, the American colonies revolted, the slaves were stolen into a new land, etc.

 

So what exactly about any of that can we undo today? Nothing.

 

The point is that historic “ownership” is a terrible rubric to build future plans off of. The borders and demographics are today what they are today. And that’s the best we have to work off of. 

Great post. You and @Harrier have been nice to read (among others of course) and I'm also glad that this thread is going (mostly) better than the previous ones.

 

I've been seeing a lot of comparisons of this situation to Russia/Crimea - that Israel created a state based on where Jewish people lived centuries prior, just as Putin did with Crimea - and that therefore Israel should have the same rights on that land as Russia has on Crimea: none. I don't think they're comparable because, for starters, in 1947 when Israel was declared a state, there were already 600,000 Jews living in what is present-day Israel. It was created based on where Jews lived in 1947 (increasing largely in the decade prior because of the Holocaust, of course).

 

Crimea is not analogous to Israel. It was first populated by Crimean Tatars (the original people who lived there), and after that was taken over by the Russian Empire and many Russians and Ukrainians went to live there. Then Stalin moved millions of Tatars from Crimea and basically changed the ethnic composition: the majority were Russians. Crimea was part of the Russian USSR until 1954 when Chruschov (and the Communist Party of the USSR) made it part of Ukraine. After 1991 it remained within Ukraine (with a Russian majority) and Russia recognised it as part of Ukraine. Not only that: in 1994 Ukraine gave up all its nuclear arms to Russia and Russia, the USA, the UK, and France garanteed Ukraine's sovereignity and security and obliged to go to war if someone invaded Ukraine.

 

So when I see stuff like "Palestine shouldn’t have to share any land with what nowadays is Israel"... there are 10 million Jews in Israel now, most of whom were born there. If Palestine shouldn't share land with them, what should those people do? Move back to Spain, from where they were chased out in 1492?

[Miss Show Business]

https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/hamas-kills-40-babies-and-children-beheading-some-of-them-at-israeli-kibbutz-report/

 

Scum of the Earth. This is so disgusting... This is why some of y'all need to tread carefully when discussing Palestine... We should be able to agree to a free Palestine, while at the same time, condemning these terrorists.

[ZIVERT]

Such bone chilling footage coming out from these various Kibbutz attacks

 

Edit for comment warning: No death/gore. Footage of Hamas soldiers pushing two Israeli women in front of them when Israeli soldiers show up to the gates of the Kibbutz

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by ZIVERT

[Aethereal]

I would kindly ask here for posters to spare the graphic details. 

[poki]

3 minutes ago, Capris Groove said:

So when I see stuff like "Palestine shouldn’t have to share any land with what nowadays is Israel"... there are 10 million Jews in Israel now, most of whom were born there. If Palestine shouldn't share land with them, what should those people do? Move back to Spain, from where they were chased out in 1492?

I can also add from personal experience that in addition to Spain, there are people living in Israel who have ancestors from: Germany, Poland, Greece, Ethiopia, Sudan, Philippines, Morocco, Russia, Belarus, Japan, Argentina, Ukraine, Iraq, and many more. Very diverse country. 

[Gov Hooka]

33 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

After catching up with the thread, I want to say once again that nobody wants to see innocent civilians getting killed, and I wish we didn't have to see videos of literal children (Palestinian and Israeli) being murdered like that. No one is exonerating Hamas. I thought it goes without saying, but we have to keep repeating it.

 

That being said, you really can't claim that you "want peace" and still support Israel in the same breath, or fail to see that all of what's happening now is a result of Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. If you want peace and want violence to end, you don't look at the symptoms, you address the root cause which is the decades of oppression that preceded this. Hamas exists because of Israel, not the other way around. Another important detail that many people seem to forget is that Israel literally backed and funded Hamas in the 80s as a way to combat and tackle the more secular Fatah/PLO. It was a classic divide/conquer policy in hopes that religious extremism would delegitimize the entire cause and the idea of a Palestinian state. They have obviously found value in this because Hamas = an excuse for collective punishment and retaliation.

 

Israel has turned Gaza into the largest open-air prison in the world and has subjected Palestinians there to sub-human living conditions, daily humiliation, violent series of massacres, and human rights abuses for years. The pick-and-choose approach that many users on this site like doesn't work here. There is an occupier (Israel) and an occupied land (Palestine). There is an oppressor (Israel) and an oppressed (Palestinians) side and no amount of gaslighting or defense of an apartheid regime shrouded in claims of being "against antisemitism!", "against terrorism!", or "for women and gay rights!" will ever change this fact. 

 

I'm sorry (not sorry) to burst your bubble, but you are really not more intelligent if you keep both-sidesing a conflict where only one side has the ability to cut basic life utilities and systemically starve millions, and the other side is trapped inside facing constant massacres and being used as an experimental ground for new weapons. One side is imposing an apartheid regime. Two can't. This is an inherently flawed position and being neutral is just as bad as supporting the oppressor, even if your "intentions are good" or claim that you want "peace for everyone".

 

There’s also no shortage of condemnation of Hamas by media outlets internationally, but the absolute silence about Israel's medieval tactics and the last few decades of brutality and abuse against Palestinian citizens leads to this illusion that the Hamas attacks were unprovoked.

 

Yes, innocent civilians dying is absolutely horrific. But do you know what’s even more horrific? The longest-running military occupation in history. 

 

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

All of this 

[poki]

Yeah I believe ATRL still has a rule that graphic, disturbing material should be in spoiler tags (I think we had a special type of spoiler for this on oldTRL?) so I'll try to keep that in mind. 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Gaia said:

 but thenasty behavior shown by the Pro-Palestinian side in the past week makes me not want to support that side. 

This is called supporting genocide, fyi, and reveals you would have supported both the horrors of South Africa apartheid and Rhodesia. Please realize the immorality you display when suggesting some uncomfortable discourse makes you accept the eradication of 2M human beings off the face of this Earth, and that's just if the Zionist project stopped at Gaza.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Communion

[Communion]

50 minutes ago, Glam said:

Llike I said I know firsthand how the Venezuelan regime is criminal, and it's clear as day that the North Korean regime is too. If those are your biggest allies then you have to be a criminal too.

 

I have nothing against Palestine but Hamas is a criminal organization that would kill every single citizen from Israel if they had the chance. That's who you are defending.

The Israeli regime is funded by the world's biggest state sponsor of global Islamic terrorism and the creator of the war on terror that killed over 3M people and displaced tens of millions in the same region this conflict is unfolding - its friend America. Maybe that would illuminate to you why so many have little trust or faith in Israel ending its apartheid regime when its enabled by the same global power that has caused more death in the region than anyone else in over multiple centuries.

 

Please end these silly, childlike arguments that are insulting to both sides. Palestinians' right to live is not dependent on your personal grievances. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Communion

[CoolNebraskaGuy]

The need to paint anyone who sympathizes with the plight of the Palestinians as supporters of Hamas is idiotic at best

 

The talk of international criminal courts goes to show how naive/uneducated some of you are. You're asking the oppressor to police themselves.  

[brazil]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065341

 

[ZIVERT]

Gigi Hadid showing how one can be pro-Palestinian and not validate terrorism!

(Some of the quote tweets attacking her are )

[ebaby]

1 hour ago, LookinAssHittas said:

Quick question: does anyone find it funny how wealthy Israelis are currently fleeing Israel back to their homes in the US or Europe… yet these are the same people who deny Palestinians their right to return because “the land belongs to them” and keep repeating “Israel isn’t a settler colonialist state because we’re simply returning to our homeland”

 

yup

[Capris Groove]

44 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

What does this actually mean to you? I'm asking genuinely what this means to you practically - where do 10 million Israelis go?

 

The Palestinians need a state and they're not going to get one by demanding Israel stop existing. The only road to a one-state solution where neither group exercises supremacy over the other is through two states, one Jewish, one Arab Palestinian, that over decades form something like the EU and eventually merge into a single polity. It would take a lot of time and Herculean levels of trust-building to get there.

[ebaby]

52 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

After catching up with the thread, I want to say once again that nobody wants to see innocent civilians getting killed, and I wish we didn't have to see videos of literal children (Palestinian and Israeli) being murdered like that. No one is exonerating Hamas. I thought it goes without saying, but we have to keep repeating it.

 

That being said, you really can't claim that you "want peace" and still support Israel in the same breath, or fail to see that all of what's happening now is a result of Israel's ongoing illegal occupation. If you want peace and want violence to end, you don't look at the symptoms, you address the root cause which is the decades of oppression that preceded this. Hamas exists because of Israel, not the other way around. Another important detail that many people seem to forget is that Israel literally backed and funded Hamas in the 80s as a way to combat and tackle the more secular Fatah/PLO. It was a classic divide/conquer policy in hopes that religious extremism would delegitimize the entire cause and the idea of a Palestinian state. They have obviously found value in this because Hamas = an excuse for collective punishment and retaliation.

 

Israel has turned Gaza into the largest open-air prison in the world and has subjected Palestinians there to sub-human living conditions, daily humiliation, violent series of massacres, and human rights abuses for years. The pick-and-choose approach that many users on this site like doesn't work here. There is an occupier (Israel) and an occupied land (Palestine). There is an oppressor (Israel) and an oppressed (Palestinians) side and no amount of gaslighting or defense of an apartheid regime shrouded in claims of being "against antisemitism!", "against terrorism!", or "for women and gay rights!" will ever change this fact. 

 

I'm sorry (not sorry) to burst your bubble, but you are really not more intelligent if you keep both-sidesing a conflict where only one side has the ability to cut basic life utilities and systemically starve millions, and the other side is trapped inside facing constant massacres and being used as an experimental ground for new weapons. One side is imposing an apartheid regime. Two can't. This is an inherently flawed position and being neutral is just as bad as supporting the oppressor, even if your "intentions are good" or claim that you want "peace for everyone".

 

There’s also no shortage of condemnation of Hamas by media outlets internationally, but the absolute silence about Israel's medieval tactics and the last few decades of brutality and abuse against Palestinian citizens leads to this illusion that the Hamas attacks were unprovoked.

 

Yes, innocent civilians dying is absolutely horrific. But do you know what’s even more horrific? The longest-running military occupation in history. 

 

Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

 

this needs to be pinned in the OP

 

no one is cheering on loss of life. we're for liberation.

 

violence is the symptom of the occupation's disease and you're dumb if you don't see that.