celeb news Bette Midler turns into Jk Rowling, post transphobic tweet

[Sheep]

1 minute ago, ATRL Feedback said:

This user has been given a ZTP warning.  

 

You posted this ONE MINUTE after the above post. We do not live on the forum 24/7.

The mutilation claim specifically was actually pages before I even joined the discussion. The above post was just another reiteration of that. Glad it was sorted out. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Century

[Ferret]

Even if the papa user was already crossing the line of transphobia, he just expressed what he thinks and never attacked anyone here. He just shared what he thought about the topic, which I agree it’s controversial. It’s kind of fascist to silence people like that. ( I get wp in 3..2…1…) 

[God_Donna]

35 minutes ago, Century said:

Trans women are women.

They can have babies? 

[GraceRandolph]

1 minute ago, Ferret said:

Even if the papa user was already crossing the line of transphobia, he just expressed what he thinks and never attacked anyone here. He just shared what he thought about the topic, which I agree it’s controversial. It’s kind of fascist to silence people like that. ( I get wp in 3..2…1…) 

It’s fascist to silence hatred? 

 

Why is the LGBT community one of the only minority communities where it’s okay to spew hatred about in the name of “all sides” being allowed. 

[God_Donna]

29 minutes ago, Mast said:

Can you give me an example of how cis women are being erased by using medically accurate language? Or how we are being prevented from talking about women? Can you explain how trans people are beinf sexist?

 

Have you personally hears anyone refer to woman as "menstruator" in a day to day basis?

 

Yall absolutely need to start thinking before y'all type, because y'all end up looking like right-wingers every time.

By being so easily offended. 

[Communion]

51 minutes ago, dlwlrma said:

https://twitter.com/alicia_kenobi/status/1543315918331289600

Oh sis this is in Portuguese?  That'd be a whole different can of worms to start trying to compare nuances of how gender and sex are articulated in English compared to then another language, and that's before how I personally can only understand very limited amount of what she is saying as an English speaker.

 

Just as one should give Bette same graciousness in not assuming she is aware of the subtext of the source article she's reacting to, it feels your description is a bit unfair, especially, from what I can tell, it is also about the conflation of "women" and "female" more than demanding the usage of the terms described in the OP, especially if then the person is indeed making videos discussing things like chromosomes:

 

The debate over when to use woman vs female feels a bit different than what is being discussed in the OP, and will be regional and language-specific. For example, many anti-trans English speakers will reiterate that woman and female are synonymous and can be used interchangeably, but many cis women who speak English as a native language often take issue with being referred to as "female" because it is often used in a way (often by the same people who are anti-trans) to be very derogatory and insulting. 

 

I remember a thread on here about a cis woman from America tweeting out that she hated when people refer to women as "females" by a user (whose native language was not American English) posting it to dunk on what they thought was trans women demanding that you can't call women female... but it was quite literally the opposite? It was cis women saying to cis men "no, that's dehumanizing - female is an adjective, not a noun". 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Communion

[Morissette]

15 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

So supporting clinically accurate language in clinical settings makes us unsympathetic to women? 

Is calling women "menstrators" clinically accurate for women who have had hysterectomies or are in menopause? Somehow, I think the word women works just fine. You can say women and trans men if you want to be inclusive. 

[Ferret]

Just now, GraceRandolph said:

It’s fascist to silence hatred? 

 

Why is the LGBT community one of the only minority communities where it’s okay to spew hatred about in the name of “all sides” being allowed. 

It’s fascist to just accept one truth and silence other opinions.  The user might be wrong but he was sharing another pov and no it was not hatred, he never expressed that way 

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, Morissette said:

Is calling women "menstrators" clinically accurate for women who have had hysterectomies or are in menopause? Somehow, I think the word women works just fine. You can say women and trans men if you want to be inclusive. 

Menstruators is only used for women who still menstruate, in guidelines around the menstrual cycle. It’s kind of awkward and I personally don’t use gender inclusive language 24/7 in day to day life, but it’s not oppressive to women or men to use clinically correct terminology. 

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, Ferret said:

It’s fascist to just accept one truth and silence other opinions.  The user might be wrong but he was sharing another pov and no it was not hatred, he never expressed that way 

Wha??? Calling SRS mutilation and “barbaric” is very much spreading hatred. It’s not just “another view” lol. If I said Jews are going to hell and are guilty of blood libel would I be spreading an opposing viewpoint or would you think I’m spreading hate?

[Ferret]

Just now, GraceRandolph said:

Wha??? Calling SRS mutilation and “barbaric” is very much spreading hatred. It’s not just “another view” lol. If I said Jews are going to hell and are guilty of blood libel would I be spreading an opposing viewpoint or would you think I’m spreading hate?

The user clearly said that trans people are free to do what they want. He would never oppose to that, he thinks that’s barbaric but that’s just his opinion, no action against trans people is involved. I think christianism is barbaric but don’t take any action against Christians nor churches. That’s what I’m trying to tell u. 

[GraceRandolph]

Just now, Ferret said:

The user clearly said that trans people are free to do what they want. He would never oppose to that, he thinks that’s barbaric but that’s just his opinion, no action against trans people is involved. I think christianism is barbaric but don’t take any action against Christians nor churches. That’s what I’m trying to tell u. 

Nnnnn. So it’s a “love the sinner, hate the sin” type of thing. Yeah, that’s not right. 

[Ferret]

1 minute ago, GraceRandolph said:

Nnnnn. So it’s a “love the sinner, hate the sin” type of thing. Yeah, that’s not right. 

Ok we agree that we don’t agree but the fact that I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean that you should be silenced. We should be able to share our thoughts. That’s my point 

[loveisdead9582]

I thought this was in relation to Roe v Wade and the attack on bodily autonomy. 

[Communion]

23 minutes ago, Morissette said:

Is calling women "menstrators" clinically accurate for women who have had hysterectomies or are in menopause?

You'd only see a phrase like "those who menstruate" used on a minority of medical pamphlets aimed at those seeking information about if they were getting their period. By your logic, the former would be the more medically accurate term because many cis women who have had hysterectomies or are in menopause would not need such info. 

 

Again, the vast majority of people who are complaining about this language have never encountered it. It still says "women" on Planned Parenthood's website if you want to find information for things like birth control or whatever other medical issues someone who menstruates have that are specific to providers like PP. 

 

Yes, one should be sympathetic to why older cis women may have an adverse reaction to such language, but by the same token, one should be sympathetic to why trans men would feel under attack when people complain that such minuscule changes to language by organizations simply trying to be as medically accurate as possible are framed as trans men attacking cis women or somehow this becoming a venue to attack trans women despite none of this language even having much to do with them. 

 

Generational divides amongst a demographic is not an inherent excuse to attack one side, let alone then use such disagreements to attack trans people. Just as many young cis women are fine with this inclusive language, they're also fine with reclaiming terms like "****" or "*****" and yet it'd be silly to say that such women don't have the right to use such language for themselves if older generations found such language alienating. I doubt orgs like "**** Walk" exist with the intention of erasing women who do not support reclaiming the word "****". 

 

It's really no different than LGBT orgs reintroducing words like "queer" in their lexicon and verbiage in addition to "LGBT" - not in place of - because it is more inclusive to do. It'd be silly to say the re-introduction of words like "queer" to describe people who include gay people was an attempt to erase gay people. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Communion

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Ok we agree that we don’t agree but the fact that I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean that you should be silenced. We should be able to share our thoughts. That’s my point 

So with the trans community we need to hear all opinions, but if he said that black people can do what they want, but them getting shot by police is their own fault ATRL should tolerate that too? Transphobes often seem to think criticism or hate towards trans people is different from that directed at other groups, and it’s bigoted. 

[fentypark]

i see nothing transphobic about the tweet 

[Aethereal]

4 hours ago, Katamari said:

that is nothing like jk  and shes not wrong. those terms are ridiculous 

Jk Rowling used the exact same words. Even though this could be a coincidence. The part that says "our name" only makes sense in the transgender context and not about abortion.

 

I however, believe it is about both, trans people and the abortion.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Aristotle

[Sheep]

30 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Even if the papa user was already crossing the line of transphobia, he just expressed what he thinks and never attacked anyone here. He just shared what he thought about the topic, which I agree it’s controversial. It’s kind of fascist to silence people like that. ( I get wp in 3..2…1…) 

Shaming malicious behavior isn't wrong. The simple fact is that nobody in real life would EVER ask to see a woman's genitals or paperwork confirming their chromosomal makeup before using feminine pronouns with them. If who you refer to as a woman in the real world isn't really based on those things, but you're still insistent that social roles and appearances aren't the qualifiers for being a woman, then there's another motivation at play. If such a large group think that an opinion was harmful then dig deeper and try to understand why. The freedom of speech has never included a freedom to incendiary comments. A common tactic of ANY hate group is to use language that sounds understandable on paper, but that doesn't stand up to critical thinking or real world behavior. Entertaining that kind of rhetoric is how we have the political right running America. We need to speak up against this kind of thing.

 

30 minutes ago, God_Donna said:

They can have babies? 

Are old or infertile women not women then? Plenty of trans women have peen and balls and can make babies. Does that make them more woman than the old or infertile? Unless you think what makes somebody a woman is taking dick. In which case gay bottoms would automatically be women . Or if it's having a ****** AND using it for reproduction in which case most lesbians aren't women. 

 

Transphobia just doesn't hold up to any kind of critical thought. It's a stupid position to take. Womanhood isn't strictly about the 9 month periods where some women carry children around inside them. Educate yourself. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Century

[Ferret]

2 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said:

So with the trans community we need to hear all opinions, but if he said that black people can do what they want, but them getting shot by police is their own fault ATRL should tolerate that too? Transphobes often seem to think criticism or hate towards trans people is different from that directed at other groups, and it’s bigoted. 

I lost you with this post because I don’t see any correlation ( maybe my own fault lol) but i do feel fascism is taking over the world and people don’t even realize it. I will finish here to avoid getting a wp for being off topic. 

[Vin]

6 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Ok we agree that we don’t agree but the fact that I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean that you should be silenced. We should be able to share our thoughts. That’s my point 

 

I think most people with common sense agree. But we're on ATRL. It's a pretty "far-left" forum. People were getting 3-month bans for accidently using the wrong pronouns. I get warned for simply calling Lady Gaga a bad actor. If you're not a nuanced professor of language and public relations, you're most likely getting warned or banned if you're stating your "controversial" or "opposing" thoughts on hot button political issues on this forum. I do think if you post a controversial point of view and it's not attacking anyone on the forum, then you should be able to state your view without penalty. I don't know @Papa's post history, if he's hateful or not, but if he decides to come back to the forum, he will definitely feel as though he can't voice his opinion on trans issues anymore, effectively being silenced, which is unfortunate if he's just a regular music forum member with one controversial stance.

 

...Vin

[Sheep]

4 minutes ago, Vin said:

 

I think most people with common sense agree. But we're on ATRL. It's a pretty "far-left" forum. People were getting 3-month bans for accidently using the wrong pronouns. I get warned for simply calling Lady Gaga a bad actor. If you're not a nuanced professor of language and public relations, you're most likely getting warned or banned if you're stating your "controversial" or "opposing" thoughts on hot button political issues on this forum. I do think if you post a controversial point of view and it's not attacking anyone on the forum, then you should be able to state your view without penalty. I don't know @Papa's post history, if he's hateful or not, but if he decides to come back to the forum, he will definitely feel as though he can't voice his opinion on trans issues anymore, effectively being silenced, which is unfortunate if he's just a regular music forum member with one controversial stance.

 

...Vin

He can't be transphobic in public anymore. How sad 

[GraceRandolph]

5 minutes ago, Vin said:

 

I think most people with common sense agree. But we're on ATRL. It's a pretty "far-left" forum. People were getting 3-month bans for accidently using the wrong pronouns. I get warned for simply calling Lady Gaga a bad actor. If you're not a nuanced professor of language and public relations, you're most likely getting warned or banned if you're stating your "controversial" or "opposing" thoughts on hot button political issues on this forum. I do think if you post a controversial point of view and it's not attacking anyone on the forum, then you should be able to state your view without penalty. I don't know @Papa's post history, if he's hateful or not, but if he decides to come back to the forum, he will definitely feel as though he can't voice his opinion on trans issues anymore, effectively being silenced, which is unfortunate if he's just a regular music forum member with one controversial stance.

 

...Vin

A transphobe, a wife-beater stan, AND an OGH? Wow you are a triple threat of bad takes. 

[God_Donna]

16 minutes ago, Century said:

Shaming malicious behavior isn't wrong. The simple fact is that nobody in real life would EVER ask to see a woman's genitals or paperwork confirming their chromosomal makeup before using feminine pronouns with them. If who you refer to as a woman in the real world isn't really based on those things, but you're still insistent that social roles and appearances aren't the qualifiers for being a woman, then there's another motivation at play. If such a large group think that an opinion was harmful then dig deeper and try to understand why. The freedom of speech has never included a freedom to incendiary comments. A common tactic of ANY hate group is to use language that sounds understandable on paper, but that doesn't stand up to critical thinking or real world behavior. Entertaining that kind of rhetoric is how we have the political right running America. We need to speak up against this kind of thing.

 

Are old or infertile women not women then? Plenty of trans women have peen and balls and can make babies. Does that make them more woman than the old or infertile? Unless you think what makes somebody a woman is taking dick. In which case gay bottoms would automatically be women . Or if it's having a ****** AND using it for reproduction in which case most lesbians aren't women. 

 

Transphobia just doesn't hold up to any kind of critical thought. It's a stupid position to take. Womanhood isn't strictly about the 9 month periods where some women carry children around inside them. Educate yourself. 

If you can’t change your age. You can’t change your sex.

[Trent W]

“Birthing people” and “Menstruators” sounds offensive af to women.

 

Who the **** talks like this

 

I’m sure if I used those terms with women irl I would get rightfully slapped

 

It sounds dehumanizing and sounds like they are “birthing machines”