poll Bigger group: aespa vs Stray Kids

[Ubermensch]

11 hours ago, Eternium said:

I actually personally know Metro Boomin

I knew you knew a little too much about the industry. One of the few users to ever make me look foolish in an argument. 

 

1 hour ago, Pluto6 said:

Stream this #1 Anime bop hit btw

If iconic anime OSTs translate into real world popularity in Japan then BoA is bigger than BTS.

1 hour ago, Pluto6 said:

There's a reason why companies have always branched out globally since 1st gen cause Korea is not a big enough music market to sustain groups and companies, especially compared to the Japanese and US markets which are the top 2 music markets in the world, which are also both SKZ's biggest markets. 

Korea has had a self sustaining music industry since the 1950s and has been making inroads to the US since the 1960s when the Kim Sisters peaked at #6 on the old billboard singles chart following their appearance on the Ed Sullivan show, decades before the idol group push. SKZ makes most of their money in markets where they are completely unknown, which is the entire issue here and why people think aepsa is bigger. You really don't know the kpop landscape like you think you do, and that's fine, but stop arguing with the people who do. It's really not an insult to your favs that they aren't musically as popular as the biggest group rn. For the bg lane that they're in, they're top dog until BTS gets back the same way aespa is keeping NJZ's seat warm atm.

Edited March 5 by Ubermensch

[Ubermensch]

One day I want to do a several part deep dive on the history of the industry's connections to the west because the newgen fans literally just do not know and so much of it is poorly documented. I have no idea where or how I'd publish it though. 

[JO1s]

14 minutes ago, Ubermensch said:

 

 

If iconic anime OSTs translate into real world popularity in Japan then BoA is bigger than BTS.

 

Back when BoA was relevant it didn't but now most of the hits to come out of japan are ost songs...

[Ubermensch]

4 minutes ago, JO1s said:

Back when BoA was relevant it didn't but now most of the hits to come out of japan are ost songs...

The decline of jpop isn't relevant to this discussion.

[lgaga1fan]

13 minutes ago, JO1s said:

Back when BoA was relevant it didn't but now most of the hits to come out of japan are ost songs...

You literally just proved the point but tried to be a contrarian. Never change girl 

[Pluto6]

1 hour ago, Eternium said:

SKZ's first world tour was their Unveil Tour. It has a reported gross of $770k. Their second would tour got cut short due to COVID, but it was grossing less than Synk Hyper Line. Aespa's first global tour outgrossed SKZ's first two global tours and Aespa's gross at 4 years in is ahead of where SKZ's gross was 6 years in to their career.

It was their 1st world tour that got cut short due to Covid not their 2nd, their 2nd world tour is the "Maniac Tour" which grossed $71.5M and sold 776k tickets across 42 shows.

Like Google is right there, why are you lying  aespa are nowhere near close to SKZ at the same point in their career in touring. 

 

aespa are nowhere near SKZ in touring at the same time in their career, when SKZ  already had a sold out dome tour in their 5th year. By that time from their 2nd world tour and dome tour combined SKZ had in their 5th year at least grossed $93M in-person and $102M online included in their 5th year

 

1 hour ago, Eternium said:

Nobody's arguing that SKZ after 7 years don't have more streams than Aespa after 4 years. What we're arguing is that Aespa after 4 years has significantly more streams than SKZ did at the same point in time and they're growing more quickly, despite not having a sizable fanbase using Stationhead.

SKZ in their 5th year  in 2023 exactly 2 years ago was charting on Spotify Artist Daily

While aespa today in their 5th year are still N/A on the chart, while SKZ has never left the chart. 

As you can see, SKZ does not only have more streams than aespa because they debuted before them, but because people have always listened to their discography more than aespa's even at the same point in their careers. 

 

And it might seem like aespa are growing quickly compared to SKZ when you compare first years, since SKZ had a slower start in their first 2 years, but  doesn't mean aespa will surpass them in the future. Cause SKZ are growing even more than aespa each year as well. Some groups become big a little bit later just look at BTS for example. By your logic, aespa will indeed surpass SKZ's total numbers in the future, which I highly doubt they will. 

 

1 hour ago, Eternium said:

As far as global charting, I'm aware SKZ's fans use Stationhead to get quick one week peaks in other countries. It's no different than "Who" by Jimin. But Aespa outlasts that because their songs stay on charts for significant periods. 

 

Girl, literally every fandom uses stationhead including aespa fans.

 

Like don't get me started how Whiplash debuted with 515K streams from Thailand alone out of the total 2,5M debut streams when the 15th song on Spotify Thailand has like less than 50K streams or something.

 

Like if anything is suspicious it's this. 

 

1 hour ago, Eternium said:

Aespa are at 74 weeks on the Billboard Global 200 (as of 9/24/24 - meaning they've added at least 19 weeks since then). Aespa have 880 weeks on the Circle digital charts. Stray Kids do well for one week on the Billboard Global 200 and then crater. Aespa's 2024 singles charting total outdid SKZ's entire career. SKZ don't have a song with even 10 weeks on the Global 200  
 

Here's their Billboard Global 200 Entries:

#8. Whiplash (19 Weeks & Charting)

Supernova (25 weeks)

Armageddon (13 weeks)

The way you just completely ignore all the info and stats that I have posted clearly showing how much bigger SKZ are compared to aespa and how more global they are bigger reach, like give it up Deelishis 

 

Edited March 5 by Pluto6

[Pluto6]

1 hour ago, Ubermensch said:

SKZ makes most of their money in markets where they are completely unknown, which is the entire issue here and why people think aepsa is bigger. You really don't know the kpop landscape like you think you do, and that's fine, but stop arguing with the people who do. It's really not an insult to your favs that they aren't musically as popular as the biggest group rn. For the bg lane that they're in, they're top dog until BTS gets back the same way aespa is keeping NJZ's seat warm atm.

How much are aespa really known outside of Korea?? Every Kpop act is a niché based act, and it's all about fandom power once they step out of Korea. And SKZ has like a WAY bigger fanbase than aespa globally. Saying aespa are bigger than SKZ because they chart better in Korea, is like saying AKMU or 4Minute is bigger than SKZ basically, since there's no other basis why aespa would be bigger. I literally pulled all the different receipts showing clearly SKZ leading in almost every metric between them and aespa such as streaming, sales, touring, google trends, social media, subscribers, followers etc.

SKZ are also more of an album artist rather than a single artist, hence why their albums outsell, outstream and outchart aespa's albums. Their global charting especially with their albums is very impressive, where they are slowly breaking into different markets that's very rare for Kpop acts

Edited March 5 by Pluto6

[JO1s]

1 hour ago, Ubermensch said:

The decline of jpop isn't relevant to this discussion.

The decline of JPOP yet KPOP is so far behind it in terms of music market size...

[Ubermensch]

37 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

How much are aespa really known outside of Korea??

Outside of Korea they're a niche fandom act exactly like SKZ. aespa has one country where they dominate though which SKZ can not and will not ever be able to claim that.

 

37 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

Every Kpop act is a niché based act, and it's all about fandom power once they step out of Korea.

This is true but there's a massive missing asterisk on this statement, some acts(IU, aespa, GD, BTS OT7/Jungkook, BP) get to have their cake and eat it too and have hits on hits in their main market, but also manage a decent following WW. Real music popularity will always trump fandom power, which is why c-listers are widely taken more seriously both in Korea and in the west than Jimin, for a non-SKZ vs aespa example.

 

37 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

Saying aespa are bigger than SKZ because they chart better in Korea, is like saying AKMU or 4Minute is bigger than SKZ basically.

AKMU are literally legends, this is such a bad argument. 4skinute is also one of the few acts to have genuine crossover hits(esp in Europe) along with BTS, 2NE1, SNSD, BB, BP, etc. If we're talking about hits, they both mop the floor with SKZ and I'm a Hyuna-anti. 

37 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

SKZ are also more of an album artist rather than a single artist,

Taylor Swift is an album artist. Drake is an album artist. Billie is an album artist. Beyonce is an album artist. GD is an album artist. IU is an album artist. Stray Kids move more albums than most of those names, but are not an album artist. An album artist is somebody who is more known for putting out whole bodies of work than for hits. People don't buy the SKZ albums to listen to the music, they buy them to collect photocards and possibly win a chance to interact with their favs.

 

37 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

where they are slowly breaking into markets that no Kpop act has ever done before

My gen 2 favs were topping iTunes US back when that was the most important chart for album sales in the entire world. The niche has grown and SKZ is at the front of it but what they're doing isn't new.

 

37 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

Industry experts also claim that the 5 biggest groups in Kpop right now are BTS, BP, SKZ, TWICE and NJ when taking very single metric into account. 

Twice are another fantastic example of this divide though, their real world popularity has noticeably nosedived in recent years(undeservedly) but they've kept up in most metrics because of their extremely large and dedicated fanbase. 

 

 

Stray Kids bring in more money ww than aespa, a lot more. aespa has more popular songs and so they have a higher profile in the industry to match. It's not an insult at SKZ, I stan plenty of groups that are only popular with whale farm idol fandoms too. Like I said in my first post, Stray Kids have billions of streams but literally cannot chart anywhere on earth, it's because while Stray Kids is overwhelmingly the top kpop group right now, their music isn't popular. It's a completely different lane than aespa.

 

It's not even a boy vs girl thing either like it's being made out to be, Big Bang and BTS were able to cross this divide and have extremely iconic catalogs. SNSD and Twice were able to do the reverse and have some of the biggest and most dedicated fanbases of all time. There is 100% a divide in this industry though between idol-artists and idol-waifus. One is popular for their music and the other is popular for the parasocial relationship they foster with fans. Some acts can have it both ways, Stray Kids clearly isn't one of them.

 

10+ years ago I was a child having these same arguments with Super Junior fans about this divide that ELFs were delusional about, look where their formerly "smaller ww" competition is now vs where Super Junior is. Real musical demand is what matters more in the long-run.

Edited March 5 by Ubermensch

[Ubermensch]

18 minutes ago, JO1s said:

The decline of JPOP yet KPOP is so far behind it in terms of music market size...

and if you want to make a thread about that where this discussion would be on topic I'd be happy to mop the floor with you again, it's been a minute. 

[JO1s]

5 minutes ago, Ubermensch said:

and if you want to make a thread about that where this discussion would be on topic I'd be happy to mop the floor with you again, it's been a minute. 

You really must be allergic to numbers, trying to say you'd wipe the floor with me when it's something that's objectively false

And arguing with pluto for 5 pages about the numbers not being on your side again.

[Ubermensch]

3 minutes ago, JO1s said:

You really must be allergic to numbers, trying to say you'd wipe the floor with me when it's something that's objectively false

And arguing with pluto for 5 pages about the numbers not being on your side again.

The desperation to derail this thread ddddd

[Pluto6]

On 3/5/2025 at 3:22 AM, Ubermensch said:

AKMU are literally legends, this is such a bad argument. 4skinute is also one of the few acts to have genuine crossover hits(esp in Europe) along with BTS, 2NE1, SNSD, BB, BP, etc. If we're talking about hits, they both mop the floor with SKZ.

Girl no body cares about either AKMU or 4Minute outside of Korea, let's not  

 

On 3/5/2025 at 3:22 AM, Ubermensch said:

Outside of Korea they're a niche fandom act exactly like SKZ. aespa has one country where they dominate though which SKZ can not and will not ever be able to claim that.

Korea is still not enough, since it doesn't reflect on their overall numbers compared to SKZ.

This is more in general, but being like among the top 100 most popular artist in either the US or Japan right now, would move more numbers overall than being #1 in Korea. The Korea market is simply too small to really have an impact, unless it's the only thing you have such as AKMU. BP aren't who they are today, due to their numbers in Korea, but due to their global numbers. Otherwise TWICE who used to destroy BP domestically would've been considered bigger than BP, which isn't the case. 

 

On 3/5/2025 at 3:22 AM, Ubermensch said:

This is true but there's a massive missing asterisk on this statement, some acts(IU, aespa, GD, BTS OT7/Jungkook, BP) get to have their cake and eat it too and have hits on hits in their main market, but also manage a decent following WW. Real music popularity will always trump fandom power, which is why c-listers are widely taken more seriously in the west than Jimin, for a non-SKZ vs aespa example.

We need to stop acting like Korean charting makes up 50 % of success and revenue for every Kpop act when in reality Japan is actually more than 50 % for a lot of Kpop acts. Even for aespa, their global numbers far ratios their success in Korea, since a lot of their sales come from China, their biggest touring venues being in Japan and their global streaming coming from SEA. Like didn't SNSD and BoA manage to become bigger than their peers due to their global numbers especially in Japan for example. 

 

On 3/5/2025 at 3:22 AM, Ubermensch said:

My gen 2 favs were topping iTunes US back when that was the most important chart for album sales in the entire world. The niche has grown and SKZ is at the front of it but what they're doing isn't new.

Stray Kids are also charting songs and albums in European countries which is usually even harder to crack for Kpop acts than the US. 

 

On 3/5/2025 at 3:22 AM, Ubermensch said:

Stray Kids bring in more money ww than aespa, a lot more. aespa has more popular songs and so they have a higher profile in the industry to match. It's not an insult at SKZ, I stan plenty of groups that are only popular with whale farm idol fandoms too. Like I said in my first post, Stray Kids have billions of streams but literally cannot chart anywhere on earth, it's because while Stray Kids is overwhelmingly the top kpop group right now, their music isn't popular. It's a completely different lane than aespa.

Saying people don't care for SKZ's music is straight false. SKZ is very music focused group and are literally the pioneers of their own music genre called "mala taste" and they managed to build a huge audience based of that.

 

And you saying SKZ can't chart anywhere on earth is funny, when I earlier just posted them charting in many more countries than aespa with both their singles and albums  Their albums literally go #1 across Asia, North America and Europe etc. and no matter how you try to spin it, that's very hard and impressive especially for a Kpop act. Most Gen Z Kpop fans in Europe, North America, Latin America are mostly SKZ stans right now.

 

Aren't you American? Then you should have knowledge about SKZ's popularity in real life in your country as well, especially if you're in Kpop circles and spaces 

 

Edited March 8 by Pluto6

[Pluto6]

Btw guys, this discussion is entertaining, let's go for more pages hopefully so I can finally have my first hit thread @Ubermensch @Eternium

Edited March 5 by Pluto6

[Ubermensch]

19 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

Aren't you American? Then you should know about SKZ's popularity real life in your country as well, especially if you're in Kpop circles and spaces 

I'm not in kpop spaces outside of here because sometime in gen 3 they got overrun with people parroting any and everything HYBE and YG pr pay to boost on social media. I have no desire to be in spaces that think CFs and endorsements are meaningful. Because of this I can confidently say literally not a single soul outside of kpop spaces here has ever heard of Stray Kids, or aespa for that matter.

 

19 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

And you saying SKZ can't chart anywhere on earth is funny, when I earlier just posted them charting in many more countries than aespa with both their singles and albums  Their albums literally go #1 across Asia, North America and Europe etc. and no matter how you try to spin it, that's very hard and impressive especially for a Kpop act. Most Kpop fans in Europe or Latin America are mostly SKZ stans right now.

 

The only single stat I saw was an anime OST that lingered in low positions on a chart forever, which is impressive, but says nothing about how popular stray kids is. Which is why I replied to it with a talking point about BoA also being able to claim that despite being irrelevant.

 

19 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

Saying people don't care for SKZ's music is straight false. 

Where's their domestic Supernova smash or their Seven global breakout? Their music is strictly consumed by stans.

Edited March 5 by Ubermensch

[Ubermensch]

You would think after so many years of being clocked by the OG fans who see past media play and our predictions effortlessly coming true all the time that you'd start to pick up on the fact that we know what we're talking about. 

[Odette Violet]

5 pages wtf 

 

aespa have no visual and talent hole so there's that

 

[gay interrupted]

4 hours ago, Pluto6 said:

Even Oh My Girl destroys SKZ on Korean charts, which shows how little Korean charts can reflect on a group's overall popularity especially if they manage to branch out globally. Unless people actually believe Oh My girl is bigger than SKZ of course  There's a reason why companies have always branched out globally since 1st gen cause Korea is not a big enough music market to sustain groups and companies, especially compared to the Japanese and US markets which are the top 2 music markets in the world, which are also both SKZ's biggest markets. 

 

While aespa utterly destroys SKZ on Korean charts, that doesn't mean that SKZ doesn't have hits either. SKZ literally have the longest charting song by a foreign act in Japan on Oricon for example, like they are huge in Japan

 

Stream this #1 Anime bop hit btw

 

 

SKZ has 6/8 members who can speak english which gives them a huge advantage with 2 members also having Australian nationality (Bang Chan & Felix).

 

In terms of relatability, SKZ have always been vulnerable in their songs, since they write and produce their own music and discuss topics like anxiety and mental health etc. in their lyrics, which connects with a lot of people.

 

Since you mentioned Chan, he has a strong parasocial relationship with his fans. He used to do weekly live streams called "Chan's Room," where he created a space to show his vulnerable side and discuss various topics. These included conversations about the music Stray Kids makes, how they create it, as well as more personal topics like the challenges of idol life. He would also react to videos requested by fans and give advice to those seeking guidance etc.

 

 

they can write and produce all the music they want but sadly if it sounds like booty it doesn't matter. 
 

being more parasocial does not make them more relatable to the casual listener. I'm referring more towards the general public who will not care about what bang chan had for breakfast on a livestream. If you put Johnny on Fallon with bang chan it's clear who the audience is going to favor just based on personalities 

 

I don't want to derail the thread so I look forward to discussing this with you in a new one if you decide to make it. I still maintain my original position though, which is that while stray kids are a selling / touring force due to the power of their loyal fandom, Aespa is still by far the bigger and more respected musical act

Edited March 5 by gay interrupted

[Ubermensch]

 

 

 

Call me nobody because I'm not Korean and think these are better than any boy group song ever, including my favs Big Bang and SHINee. 

7 minutes ago, Odette Violet said:

5 pages wtf 

 

aespa have no visual and talent hole so there's that

 

The kpop base is semi peaceful now so Pluto had to make a separate thread to get the quarterly lashings from Mys

Edited March 5 by Ubermensch

[Pluto6]

22 minutes ago, Ubermensch said:

The only single stat I saw was an anime OST that lingered in low positions on a chart forever, which is impressive, but says nothing about how popular stray kids is. Which is why I replied to it with a talking point about BoA also being able to claim that despite being irrelevant.

That song literally went #1 though, and SKZ have multiple hits songs in Japan. 
 

And looking at SKZ's career in Japan, they officially became one of the biggest Kpop acts in Japan due to this smash hit 

 

22 minutes ago, Ubermensch said:

Where's their domestic Supernova smash or their Seven global breakout? Their music is strictly consumed by stans.

stans = people

 

SKZ are are global niché act I fear, whose fandom is so big and loyal that they are able to thrive as the 3rd biggest Kpop acts globally thanks to them

 

9 minutes ago, gay interrupted said:

Aespa is still by far the bigger and more respected musical act

If bigger by domestic charting, then yes. But bigger overall, no. 
 

And by more "respected" you mean by those Regina George wannabes on the internet? 

Edited March 5 by Pluto6

[gay interrupted]

2 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

 

And by more "respected" you mean by those Regina George wannabes on the interne

How many year end best of kpop and lists did Aespa and supernova end up number one on? Because I lost count 

[Ubermensch]

4 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

And looking at SKZ's career in Japan, they officially became one of the biggest Kpop acts in Japan due to this smash hit 

Wait that's cute for them. Okay they can chart in Japan sometimes vs aespa who gets year end chart placements in their main market with b sides. The comparison still stands but I actually was unaware of this 

 

4 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

SKZ are are global niché act I fear, whose fandom is so big and loyal that they are able to thrive as the 3rd biggest Kpop acts globally thanks to them

There are still more people who know aespa songs. 

 

4 minutes ago, Pluto6 said:

And by more "respected" you mean those Regina George wannabes on the internet? 

You making a thread to antagonize people when the majority doesn't agree with your delusionally black or white take is way more Regina George than the other side conceding several times that SKZ makes more money, in spite of them not being musically as popular. There are plenty of non-kpop stans who might use an aespa song here or there but won't be touching acts like SKZ or NCT ever. I know several examples, at some point you have to ask if people are really reverse sexist against men in kpop or if there's another issue here.

Edited March 5 by Ubermensch

[Pluto6]

1 minute ago, gay interrupted said:

How many year end best of kpop and lists did Aespa and supernova end up number one on? Because I lost count 

Not on ATRL though 

[Comedor]

First time I'm hearing of a girl group named Stray Kids.

 

aespa is bigger and more successful. All the best to the stray girls tho.  

[Pluto6]

13 minutes ago, Ubermensch said:

There are still more people who know aespa songs. 

A lot of SKZ stans aren't even Kpop stans, so their audiences don't really overlap with aespa's in general as you would think, so that statement is not really true. SKZ have managed to build a niche fanbase outside of the Kpop space etc., so a lot of these people wouldn't know about aespa's music either. 
 

Anyways, here's a clip of when SKZ headlined LOLAPLOOZA Paris where over 60K people were singing along to one of SKZ's b-sides  

 

Edited March 5 by Pluto6