news John Oliver unloads into Democrats: "You had a centrist candidate... she lost!"

[DevilsRollTheDice]

9 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Biden won with Bernie Sanders as an advisor to his campaign, while promising $15 minimum wage, expanding Medicare to include people aged 60 and older, and free community college. Kamala ran on building the wall.

 

Kamala's reaching across the aisle gave her less of the Republican vote than Biden and Hillary got in 2020 and 2016.

 

 

Babe, reality is not on your side. Wake up.

Harris was reaching for moderates and independents. I've fetched the data for you before and you just stopped responding, but those groups were CRITICAL in Biden's 2020 win. Harris lost an impossible campaign. It was impossible for many reasons, not least of which being the information environment. We also have PLENTY of evidence that the American electorate swung right due to perceived economic AND social issues. As you yourself pointed out, Harris made up a LOT of ground from where Biden was aiming. It's very possible that she would've lost by closer to his estimated margins if she didn't court moderates and independents so vigorously. 

Edited November 12 by DevilsRollTheDice

[Bloo]

2 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Harris was reaching for moderates and independents. I've fetched the data for you before and you just stopped responding, but those groups were CRITICAL in Biden's 2020 win. 

No? The group that came out at historic levels were young voters—a demographic that did not show up this election cycle.

 

Further, the assumption on your part that Independents are in between the Democrats and Republicans is... telling. Bernie Sanders is the most left wing member of the Senate and he's an Independent. I am an Independent voter because the Democrats are too conservative. The presumption that Independents think both parties are too extreme is baseless. Independents just do not like either major party enough to identify with them. That's it. So, yes, Independents did show up for Biden in 2020. That's true. But that does not mean because they want to see right-wing policies. If that were the case, then Kamala would have won this race since she ran to the right of Biden in 2020.

[Sheep]

Talking about the information environment as a problem while proudly repeating verifiably false maga talking points about how the transphobic liberal vampire is actually too supportive of LGBT causes, on a forum with an LGBT majority no less. I've seen it all. Kick dirt swiftie 

[Communion]

25 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

So you agree, Harris' campaign, which included reaching across the aisle to independents and moderates and toning down identity politics, lead to a far superior outcome than the incumbent ticket (that also included her) was destined for? 

This feels a bit too much like "heads I win, tails you lose" where-in you somehow cite that Biden would have lost worse than Harris as evidence of.. something, despite that Joe Biden in most of his favorables is not going to be seen as "more liberal" by most voters than Kamala Harris and yet he was still set to lose far worse than her. 

 

27 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Source for all of these claims

You need me to "source" that the meaning of a criticism like "Harris put trans issues over economic issues" is an *economic* criticism?

 

Here. 

 

 

Nothing shows trans issues removed from economic resentment registered with voters. Even the chart you shared shows that it resonates with voters when paired with economic resentment. If you believe it is somehow an issue on its own, you have to show something to show that.

 

Colin Allred made an attack ad that referred to trans girls as "boys in sports". It didn't help him win his Senate race as a Democrat in Texas.

 

Ruben Gallego in Arizona largely avoided the same anti-LGBTQ rhetoric that Southern Dems pushed - having plucked Bernie Sanders' Latino Outreach director despite Gallego being a centrist - and won his Senate seat with over 60% of the Latino male vote. "Well he probably didn't have the same package as Harris". Well....

 

 

Edited November 12 by Communion

[Armani?]

7 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Harris was reaching for moderates and independents. I've fetched the data for you before and you just stopped responding, but those groups were CRITICAL in Biden's 2020 win. Harris lost an impossible campaign. It was impossible for many reasons, not least of which being the information environment. We also have PLENTY of evidence that the American electorate swung right due to perceived economic AND social issues. As you yourself pointed out, Harris made up a LOT of group from where Biden was aiming. It's very possible that she would've lost by closer to his estimated margins if she didn't court moderates and independents so vigorously. 

It was not impossible, just hard, but the way she ran came to a ceiling not that long after she entered the race.

 

If she had stayed true to progressive policies she would have done better in the rust belt. Also their attacks in ads on Trump pertaining to Project 2025 were not that convincing to me

[DevilsRollTheDice]

5 minutes ago, Bloo said:

No? The group that came out at historic levels were young voters—a demographic that did not show up this election cycle.

 

Further, the assumption on your part that Independents are in between the Democrats and Republicans is... telling. Bernie Sanders is the most left wing member of the Senate and he's an Independent. I am an Independent voter because the Democrats are too conservative. The presumption that Independents think both parties are too extreme is baseless. Independents just do not like either major party enough to identify with them. That's it. So, yes, Independents did show up for Biden in 2020. That's true. But that does not mean because they want to see right-wing policies. If that were the case, then Kamala would have won this race since she ran to the right of Biden in 2020.

Data from Pew. Biden experienced very significant gains in moderates and independents. Trump ate back much of those gains in 2024 as the electorate swung right. 

 

You can view some of those 2016-2024 here.

[Headlock]

13 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Harris was reaching for moderates and independents. I've fetched the data for you before and you just stopped responding, but those groups were CRITICAL in Biden's 2020 win. Harris lost an impossible campaign. It was impossible for many reasons, not least of which being the information environment. We also have PLENTY of evidence that the American electorate swung right due to perceived economic AND social issues. As you yourself pointed out, Harris made up a LOT of ground from where Biden was aiming. It's very possible that she would've lost by closer to his estimated margins if she didn't court moderates and independents so vigorously. 

Independents =/= centrists 

[Communion]

19 minutes ago, Kimbra said:

Democrats lost because (Very online pet issue(

The pet issue being *re-reads* kicking millions of people off their health insurance. 

 

 

[DevilsRollTheDice]

12 minutes ago, Communion said:

This feels a bit too much like "heads I win, tails you lose" where-in you somehow cite that Biden would have lost worse than Harris as evidence of.. something, despite that Joe Biden in most of his favorables is not going to be seen as "more liberal" by most voters than Kamala Harris and yet he was still set to lose far worse than her. 

 

You need me to "source" that the meaning of a criticism like "Harris put trans issues over economic issues" is an *economic* criticism?

 

Here. 

 

 

Nothing shows trans issues removed from economic resentment registered with voters. Even the chart you shared shows that it resonates with voters when paired with economic resentment. If you believe it is somehow an issue on its own, you have to show something to show that.

 

Colin Allred made an attack ad that referred to trans girls as "boys in sports". It didn't help him win his Senate race as a Democrat in Texas.

 

Ruben Gallego in Arizona largely avoided the same anti-LGBTQ rhetoric that Southern Dems pushed - having plucked Bernie Sanders' Latino Outreach director despite Gallego being a centrist - and won his Senate seat with over 60% of the Latino male vote. "Well he probably didn't have the same package as Harris". Well....

 

 

I was talking about the word salad regarding your issue of the framing of the data and the ideas about American voters and their motivations you presented as fact. You also cherry picking independent races with independent odds as evidence that this issue doesn't matter is meaningless. In that survey, voters had the option to express their frustration about the economy separated from the frustration regarding social issues and yet determined both to be independently important. We'll have to wait for more data about distilled positions, but that data isn't meaningless. We also know that Dems are associated with widely unpopular polices we do have polling data for like trans women in women's sports.

Edited November 12 by DevilsRollTheDice

[BionicWooHoo]

1 hour ago, getBusy said:

So he wants someone more to the left??? I don't think that's gonna work in this country, unfortunately

Bernie was super popular amongst young men hence the term Bernie bros 
Another centrist woman is just not going to work. We tried w Hilary, we tried w Kamala, and you wanna tell me you wanna try a third time with the gov of Michigan?

[Delirious]

1 hour ago, mael said:

Is the OP a republican? All I ever see them post are anti dem news on this website 

They're a self proclaimed communist...I mean 💀

[GraceRandolph]

2 minutes ago, BionicWooHoo said:

Bernie was super popular amongst young men hence the term Bernie bros 
Another centrist woman is just not going to work. We tried w Hilary, we tried w Kamala, and you wanna tell me you wanna try a third time with the gov of Michigan?

They'll just keep pivoting a bit further to the right until the party stands for nothing, and they can't win a popular vote or EC vote ever again.  

[DevilsRollTheDice]

3 minutes ago, BionicWooHoo said:

Bernie was super popular amongst young men hence the term Bernie bros 
Another centrist woman is just not going to work. We tried w Hilary, we tried w Kamala, and you wanna tell me you wanna try a third time with the gov of Michigan?

Bernie couldn't even win a Democratic primary. "But he was sabotaged!!!" The establishment Dems might not have wanted him, but they didn't rig the election. Establishment Republicans desperately wanted anyone else but Trump, but he still won his primary because he truly was popular. 

[Communion]

1 minute ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

In that survey, voters had the option to express their frustration about the economy separated from the frustration regarding social issues and yet determined both to be independently important.

This is literally not what you linked. The question about trans people is explicitly about economic issues. 

 

It quite literally juxtaposes "trans people" and "the American middle class" as two distinct groups at odds with one another.

 

You also simply are not addressing that the anti-trans rhetoric Trump hit Harris the hardest with was an economic one regarding taxpayer dollars and a policy which *he* implemented.

[Delirious]

8 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Bernie couldn't even win a Democratic primary. "But he was sabotaged!!!" The establishment Dems might not have wanted him, but they didn't rig the election. Establishment Republicans desperately wanted anyone else but Trump, but he still won his primary because he truly was popular. 

Bernie had even less vote share than Kamala in his own state lol. Everyone on atrl is living in their own bubble thinking that Bernie or his policies is what Americans want or wanted

 

He lost terribly for a reason because noone wants him not even his own party. 

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Bernie couldn't even win a Democratic primary. "But he was sabotaged!!!" The establishment Dems might not have wanted him, but they didn't rig the election. Establishment Republicans desperately wanted anyone else but Trump, but he still won his primary because he truly was popular. 

So you're just a neoliberal who can't reconcile with the reality that you got a Democrat campaign tailored to your exact views and it still loss in a huge blowout. 

 

You use "identity politics" to seemingly mean "any policy that is anti-racism or anti-sexist" and hate progressive economic policies most people like.

[DevilsRollTheDice]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

So you're just a neoliberal who can't reconcile with the reality that you got a Democrat campaign tailored to your exact views and it still loss in a huge blowout. 

 

You use "identity politics" to seemingly mean "any policy that is anti-racism or anti-sexist" and hate progressive economic policies most people like.

Not only is none of this indicated by anything I wrote in that comment, but it also completely mischaracterizes my own political views.
 

We're discussing why Dems lost an election and how to move forward. The topic is always irrelevant for you because it's always just an excuse to discuss your own political views as though they are divine truth. 

Edited November 12 by DevilsRollTheDice

[Communion]

1 minute ago, Delirious said:

noone wants him not even his own party. 

I need some of you to understand you're not ever going to have meaningful opinions on America when posting about it from far away like as though you're Miles Ian Cheong and American realities are an abstract, nebulous reality you'll never experience.

 

 

[Communion]

4 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

We're discussing why Dems lost an election

And you're shouting that Kamala Harris somehow lost the election solely because she - *rereads* - followed a policy that Donald Trump implemented in his presidency.

 

You're denying the data that shows "trans issues" did not register at all and are arguing that there could be - eventually - something that confirms your priors that trans people should.. what? Dems should campaign on denying trans people healthcare? Should people who need insulin be denied it while incarcerated?

 

You're asking us to suspend reality and believe "deny trans people healthcare" is a better campaign message than "you should have more money and less costs"?

Edited November 12 by Communion

[DevilsRollTheDice]

Also @Communion characterizing this election as a blowout shows how far you are from discussing what happened rationally. 
 

Trump will win with one of the worst popular vote margins ever and brought it home by flipping the blue wall with razor thin margins. 

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

I need some of you to understand you're not ever going to have meaningful opinions on America when posting about it from far away like as though you're Miles Ian Cheong and American realities are an abstract, nebulous reality you'll never experience.

 

 

I don't know why I bother engaging with this bad faith crap, this is 2020 primary polling. The context is entirely different. It's also not even what that user was implying. But, since we're playing, now do 2020 Biden vs Sanders! Or does that not fit the narrative of what the voters want for you?

Edited November 12 by DevilsRollTheDice

[Bloo]

19 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

Bernie couldn't even win a Democratic primary. 

Imagine unironically using this talking point in defense of KAMALA as a politician.

 

Let's not even mention Biden's failed attempts in 1988 and 2008.

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said:

But, since we're playing, now do 2020 Biden vs Sanders!

Both people who got more black support in the 2020 primary than Kamala Harris did because they were seen as trustworthy and respectively actually believing in something! But somehow you want us to believe we need more dishonest and unconvincing pivots to the right!

Edited November 12 by Communion

[DevilsRollTheDice]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

And you're shouting that Kamala Harris somehow lost the election solely because she - *rereads* - followed a policy that Donald Trump implemented in his presidency.

 

You're denying the data that shows "trans issues" did not register at all and are arguing that there could be - eventually - something that confirms your priors that trans people should.. what? Dems should campaign on denying trans people healthcare? Should people who need insulin be denied it while incarcerated?

 

You're asking us to suspend reality and believe "deny trans people healthcare" is a better campaign message than "you should have more money and less costs"?

I don't even know what you're implying here because you've put so many words in my mouth. The one poll you pulled doesn't even indicate a social issue option. Maybe there was one, I don't know. We have two datasets. The other data set has an option to select the economy and inflation alone. It provides another option contrasting it to Dem's messaging on social issues. I'm not pretending it's perfect data, but that is proof these issues strike a chord.

 

Where have I ever suggested we deny trans people healthcare? Dems are widely associated with gray areas like sports which are universally unpopular, even amongst Americans who identify as left. That survey question also encompasses the left's obsession with woke scolding and identity politics. It isn't just trans issues being contrasted to working class concerns. 

Edited November 12 by DevilsRollTheDice

[DevilsRollTheDice]

7 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Imagine unironically using this talking point in defense of KAMALA as a politician.

 

Let's not even mention Biden's failed attempts in 1988 and 2008.

This is just y'all playing tails I win heads you lose. @Communion really told on themselves with that phrasing because that is the constant tactic. 
 

The notion that Bernie's exact messaging and politics will save us and win elections has been disproved recently twice!

Edited November 12 by DevilsRollTheDice

[Cruel Summer]

8 minutes ago, Delirious said:

Bernie had even less vote share than Kamala in his own state lol. Everyone on atrl is living in their own bubble thinking that Bernie or his policies is what Americans want or wanted

 

He lost terribly for a reason because noone wants him not even his own party. 

It's so disingenuous to attempt to characterize a 1.1% difference in a state with unique politics like Vermont as "no one wanting" a candidate that… still got over 60% lol

 

Don't worry, you'll get to see Democrats keep testing the theory that Americans don't want policies like Medicare for All or a living wage again and again and again, and we'll all get to pay the price! I wonder if Liz Cheney will be the VP choice next cycle, or if they'll just make her the nominee already like they seem to want?