discussion AOC addresses attacks from leftists, clocks them for being ineffective

[BOOMBAYAH]

13 minutes ago, on the line said:

It's not just you, but there's a minority of extremely loud and aggressive posters with unrealistic expectations for Harris and this extremely close election. Keep doing you.

For me, the biggest issue with Biden, Harris, and the Democrats is how they're handling the situation in Gaza. I understand that the situation is complex and far more difficult to navigate than what both sides portray online, but when it comes to war crimes, isn't the answer simple? There is a dignified and proper way to go about war. How does a nation get to bomb and kill civilians en masse while still receiving funding from the USA? Yes, Israel is an American ally, but why does that allow both Democrats and Republicans to ignore that what they're doing is wrong? To set the stance that powerful nations can do whatever they want if attacked, including killing an insane amount of innocent men, women, and children, without facing any consequences? Then these same politicians will turn around and fearmonger about how Russia and China overstep their bounds, lol. I support Kamala because, ultimately, Democrats are better on domestic and social issues and influence the world to follow suit, but I also empathise with a Muslim or Arab or POC American who decides not to vote because both parties seem willing to fund the deaths of tens of thousands of people who look like them for nothing more than political reasons. They don't have the courage to do the right thing and draw the line at war crimes (which should not be a "unrealistic expectation").

Edited August 30 by BOOMBAYAH

[needs]

1 hour ago, shyboi said:

she thought she ate 

She did .

 

AOC is as much of a politician as anyone else in DC, but we have to understand that as a young woman of color from The Bronx she has to play the game and do it in an extra calculated way. How else will she get reelected, grow in this career, or even honestly maintain her mental health while dealing with all these white men in the Capitol? She's right about everything in that post lol. Yall just like to hate just to hate. Be realistic about where we are politically in 2024 and what legitimate change will look like and require. People like AOC can be on our side and play the game too, we need that.

[Sprite]

Republicans were right about her all along, huh?

[Communion]

48 minutes ago, Communion said:

She's largely getting laughed at from the responses online. To write a mini essay about why you defended and lied about Biden working towards the end of a genocide that's still happening is deeply self-serving and unserious no matter her actual record. 

 

The elephant in the room is that her new reformed theory of change just...hasn't proven effective. 

 

What has she achieved? Her own self stated goals are farther away from being enacted than when she entered Congress. 

@khalyan sister, you can dislike this, but...is Nydia Velazquez speaking at the DNC? Is Bonnie Watson Coleman?

 

She has a huge platform not because she has a progressive voting record but because she came to prominence on the claim the Democratic party must be fundamentally shaken up and revolted against. Protested even. She did this literally!

 

And now she uses that platform achieved from insurgency to shepherd people into the ideological confines of the party's donors and uses her credibility to act as a barrier to protect Biden and Harris from activists trying to do the same insurgency and shaking up AOC promised her presence in the party meant. 

 

We can agree to disagree but I'm just brought back to the photoz of the vigil Cori Bush and Rashida Tlaib held that only a single digit number of House Dems attended in honor of both Palestinians and Israelis. 

 

 

That AOC finds it important to meet with the family of killed IDF soldiers yet did not find it important to help show that its okay and right to publicly mourn Palestinian victims of a genocide encapsulates the issue at hand. 

 

She wants to convince progressives that somehow it is effective or meaningful progress to be a leftist who doesn't want Palestinians to die yet meaningfully and materially support other Democrats who do want Palestinians to die. 

 

Her claim of power is that you get to have a seat at the table to...watch your peers commence the slaughtering of tens of thousands you dong agree with. Why would that be convincing to anyone?

Edited August 30 by Communion

[XDNA]

56 minutes ago, Communion said:

Rich people don't have a material understanding of the problems in which progressive policies aim to fix so this is why we see users like you continually claim things that exarbate these.problems are somehow effective. 

 

What has she achieved?

 

She wants M4A. The admin she supported has helped further privatize Medicare more than ever before. 

 

She did a photoshoot crying at the botder. The Dem nominee for president she's supporting is now calling for the most conservative immigration bill in 30 years that calls for mass detention of families and mass expulsions of undocumented people in just mere hours of arrest with little legal recourse. 

 

She's essentially achieved nothing in the progress to her claimed goals. 

She authored a bill that recently unanimously passed in the senate. Dont say shes useless just because shes not doing what you want.

Is she even your congress person? What has your congress person done and how have you been pressuring them about Gaza?

[45seconds]

1 hour ago, Rabbit said:

I believe that we have a moral obligation to be EFFECTIVE in addition to having a just stance, otherwise who are we doing this for?

 

Right. Like what is the point of shouting from a soap box if you can't get stuff done? 

[on the line]

3 minutes ago, 45seconds said:

Right. Like what is the point of shouting from a soap box if you can't get stuff done? 

This is fundamentally what it all comes down to. If Trump wins, none of these posts or arguments will matter. At all. Whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada. 

 

If Harris wins, we have a chance to fight and push her left. 

 

That's what this is about, and AOC is speaking the truth about that. ATRLers can be morally just until their heads turn blue ranting all they want, and that fundamental truth will still be the truth.

[Communion]

11 minutes ago, XDNA said:

She authored a bill that recently unanimously passed in the senate.

I..assume you're trying to say she authored a bill in the House that then had corresponding legislation pass unanimously in the Senate? The DEFIANCE Act text she authored hasn't moved beyond being introduced into the House. 

 

Do you think her no longer advocating for and helping to bring progressives into Congress will better help her achieve this legislation?

[Communion]

19 minutes ago, 45seconds said:

Right. Like what is the point of shouting from a soap box if you can't get stuff done? 

The stuff getting done in question:

 

 

 

[Newt]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

M4A truly is the seminal example of why simply electing progressives does nothing. Electoralism on its own is broken. You cannot have a representative government when billionaires exist and they're able to legally finance politicians. Despite M4A being super popular and being a mainstream issue going into 2020, even with the Squad, Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris (lol) advocating for it, it's now never even mentioned. I don't even really hear AOC talk about it much anymore. 

 

If we're relying on politicians to push through meaningful change, we may as well roll over. 

 

I'm not saying everyone should stop voting. I think voting is important, but we have to do more than that and we need to have more realistic expectations of politicians. They're not going to think to fix our problems without us bullying the hell out of them. That's how the Civil Rights Act got passed. It wasn't because LBJ was just feeling nice that morning. He was scared to death of the Civil Rights Movement.

You know, I actually agree with this. My take is that politicians will never be our saviors, but we do need them to be around as elected officials to drive the outcome of public sentiment (protest, outrage, etc). All she can really do is take advantage of momentum that the American public is responsible for driving. We need people in office that we can trust to do this, and that does mean "keeping them in line" if they veer too far off. She can leverage that public sentiment to sway other politicians, which is her true role. 

 

But I don't agree with a portion of the animosity aimed at her from the left, because the expectations were not reasonable from the start

[Bloo]

12 minutes ago, Newt said:

But I don't agree with a portion of the animosity aimed at her from the left, because the expectations were not reasonable from the start

I think this is fair. I agree with @Communion's point that a lot of this is because she goaded people into believing that electing her would spark the revolution and now they're angry it's not here. To her credit, she was 29 when she got elected. It's not difficult to imagine she genuinely believed she could make all that difference if elected and that she realized she can't do that. But, she's galvanized people to see her as a chaos agent when she led a protest outside Nancy Pelosi's office over the Green New Deal and now she's become a fairly standard politician. I'm fine with her acting as a standard politician (even if I preferred the more vocal, activist version of her from earlier in her career). But I think a lot of people still hold her to the standard she established for herself upon getting elected.

 

That doesn't justify the extent of the harassment she's getting. But, she should be protested. She should be criticized. She should be called out. She should feel pressured. That's all well and good. Of course some on the Internet are going to go too far—people have received death threats online for saying an album by a pop girl wasn't that good. Unfortunately, the Internet is a cesspool that animates the most temperamentally extreme in any community.

 

And, to be fair, I think AOC gets far too much criticism when Bernie doesn't get his own fair share. AOC's failed project of telling us to overly rely on politicians is an extension of Bernie's movement. He did amass a massive movement of activated progressive people to show out and fight. But once the election was over and his "dear friend Joe" was elected, he was done and wouldn't bother criticizing his dear friend or challenging him publicly. So Bernie is also responsible for the same failed project as AOC, even more so in my opinion.

 

We can still respect their contributions to making leftist ideas mainstream. But the sad truth is that they've had power and have endorsed the Democratic Party as they've moved to the right of where they were in 2016. The Democrats are now the party that built more of Trump's border wall and deported more undocumented immigrants than the Trump administration. That... was unthinkable to me a few years ago, but that's where we are at. It's beyond clear simply trusting politicians gets us nowhere and working within the system as a progressive is a lost cause.

[Vegvisir]

My observation is that there are two camps here:

 

1. Those who have identified the American government as an industrial war complex and system that needs to be dismantled

2. Those who have identified the American government as an industrial war complex and system that needs to be dismantled in some capacity but first must be infiltrated and navigated as it already exists.

 

Given our collective rage on the progressive side, I get that Camp #1 is more attractive and would result in faster change, I think it's an extremely naive approach considering the amount of proof and endless examples we have of the lengths that Republicans and establishment Dems will go to in order to control the narrative. The US Government as it currently stands cannot be toppled overnight, otherwise we would've already done it.

 

I believe in AOC's methods. She's fighting for people despite the mud they sling at her because of the principle of it all, and we need more politicians like her. Where is this energy for those who do nothing? Furthermore, why are those who want swift and dramatic change in politics ranting online instead of getting into local offices and working their way up? The far right identified this years ago and Trump's insane takeover during his term is proof of this.

 

Life is a series of f*cking chess games that we play at home, at work, at school and out in public. It's naive to think politics is any different, and I think we should grant more grace to those people like AOC who are trying to do something. Don't like the chess moves being made? Then jump in and start your own moves - which do not include hit and run comments on IG and Twitter. The left has GOT to learn how to be more persuasive with their actions if they ever want to achieve our more progressive goals.

[on the line]

12 minutes ago, Vegvisir said:

My observation is that there are two camps here:

 

1. Those who have identified the American government as an industrial war complex and system that needs to be dismantled

2. Those who have identified the American government as an industrial war complex and system that needs to be dismantled in some capacity but first must be infiltrated and navigated as it already exists.

 

Given our collective rage on the progressive side, I get that Camp #1 is more attractive and would result in faster change, I think it's an extremely naive approach considering the amount of proof and endless examples we have of the lengths that Republicans and establishment Dems will go to in order to control the narrative. The US Government as it currently stands cannot be toppled overnight, otherwise we would've already done it.

 

I believe in AOC's methods. She's fighting for people despite the mud they sling at her because of the principle of it all, and we need more politicians like her. Where is this energy for those who do nothing? Furthermore, why are those who want swift and dramatic change in politics ranting online instead of getting into local offices and working their way up? The far right identified this years ago and Trump's insane takeover during his term is proof of this.

 

Life is a series of f*cking chess games that we play at home, at work, at school and out in public. It's naive to think politics is any different, and I think we should grant more grace to those people like AOC who are trying to do something. Don't like the chess moves being made? Then jump in and start your own moves - which do not include hit and run comments on IG and Twitter. The left has GOT to learn how to be more persuasive with their actions if they ever want to achieve our more progressive goals.

We need more of you in these threads. What a fresh, balanced perspective. 

[Vegvisir]

3 minutes ago, on the line said:

We need more of you in these threads. What a fresh, balanced perspective. 

Thank you! I really appreciate that - I try to see the nuance at hand without just playing devil's advocate and always encourage others to do the same.

[on the line]

3 minutes ago, Vegvisir said:

Thank you! I really appreciate that - I try to see the nuance at hand without just playing devil's advocate and always encourage others to do the same.

I'm definitely guilty of playing devil's advocate. Good advice. 

[Newt]

5 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I think this is fair. I agree with @Communion's point that a lot of this is because she goaded people into believing that electing her would spark the revolution and now they're angry it's not here. To her credit, she was 29 when she got elected. It's not difficult to imagine she genuinely believed she could make all that difference if elected and that she realized she can't do that. But, she's galvanized people to see her as a chaos agent when she led a protest outside Nancy Pelosi's office over the Green New Deal and now she's become a fairly standard politician. I'm fine with her acting as a standard politician (even if I preferred the more vocal, activist version of her from earlier in her career). But I think a lot of people still hold her to the standard she established for herself upon getting elected.

 

That doesn't justify the extent of the harassment she's getting. But, she should be protested. She should be criticized. She should be called out. She should feel pressured. That's all well and good. Of course some on the Internet are going to go too far—people have received death threats online for saying an album by a pop girl wasn't that good. Unfortunately, the Internet is a cesspool that animates the most temperamentally extreme in any community.

 

And, to be fair, I think AOC gets far too much criticism when Bernie doesn't get his own fair share. AOC's failed project of telling us to overly rely on politicians is an extension of Bernie's movement. He did amass a massive movement of activated progressive people to show out and fight. But once the election was over and his "dear friend Joe" was elected, he was done and wouldn't bother criticizing his dear friend or challenging him publicly. So Bernie is also responsible for the same failed project as AOC, even more so in my opinion.

Exactly! The criticism you acknowledge is what I refer to as "keeping them in line"

 

And it's a fair point that AOC and other progressive politicians have contributed to these poor expectations.

 

I also think that some progressives advocating for pivoting to exclusively grassroots movements (in the post- AOC backlash narrative) as the sole impetus for change is a misguided, overreaction. We need both. Strong figureheads within are crucial when trying to sway the opinions of billions

[Communion]

49 minutes ago, Vegvisir said:

I believe in AOC's methods. She's fighting for people despite the mud they sling at her because of the principle of it all, and we need more politicians like her. Where is this energy for those who do nothing? Furthermore, why are those who want swift and dramatic change in politics ranting online instead of getting into local offices and working their way up? The far right identified this years ago and Trump's insane takeover during his term is proof of this

They did. And while AOC defended her friends Cori and Jamaal, the party she uncritically supports endorsed AIPAC spending $20M to knock out people like them; a public school teacher and a nurse - both black Americans - who got punished by big money for thinking Palestinian people are not disposable and don't deserve to die. 

 

2016-2024 was an activist-led insurgency to shape Democratic politics through winning elections and creating connections between activist groups and the party. 

 

That era ended with no policy passed and those elected off the momentum of those movements kicked out of Congress by foreign interference:

 

 

[Bloo]

35 minutes ago, Newt said:

Exactly! The criticism you acknowledge is what I refer to as "keeping them in line"

 

And it's a fair point that AOC and other progressive politicians have contributed to these poor expectations.

 

I also think that some progressives advocating for pivoting to exclusively grassroots movements (in the post- AOC backlash narrative) as the sole impetus for change is a misguided, overreaction. We need both. Strong figureheads within are crucial when trying to sway the opinions of billions

Yes, we can vote but we also need to build up an external movement that has power outside of politics. Because these politicians cannot save us. If people like AOC want to use the threat of external pressure to push for leftist ideas from within, then great. But, we need to stop wasting all our energy on politicians alone. That’s my main mindset.

[Bloo]

35 minutes ago, Communion said:

That era ended with no policy passed and those elected off the momentum of those movements kicked out of Congress by foreign interference:

That era ended with the Democratic Party building more of Donald Trump’s wall than Donald Trump himself.

[Bosque]

She spilled

[Redstreak]

4 hours ago, Virgos Groove said:

Leftists: We want our presidential candidate to support an arms embargo. Supporting a genocide is morally abhorrent and most Americans don't want arms sent to Israel. It is an electorally sound position.

 

AOC: No, wanting your party to support popular policies is dumb!!!! Stop demanding anything out of your politicians!!1!

 

The state of the Western left...

 

I feel like if that's your take away you're probably one of the peoples it's touching on

[50thStateofMind]

sheʻs right and should say it  

[beautiful player]

Oh, she cleared some of these ATRL civic faux-pundits. Yet as evidenced in this thread, her words fell on deaf ears.

 

And you can't build power by recreating the punitive, angry, expulsion-focused cultures that we seek to replace. It will require NEW SKILLS from us. It's not enough to be right.

 

[Mornings]

Honestly all of this makes sense to me. We need people like AOC to actually willingly work within the guidelines of the government, and we need those who refuse to exist withon that framework to apply pressure to the former group. 
 

to me both methods of change need to be happening simultaneously in order for anything to actually happen. The infighting and tension are an essential part of the progression as well

[Vegvisir]

13 minutes ago, Mornings said:

Honestly all of this makes sense to me. We need people like AOC to actually willingly work within the guidelines of the government, and we need those who refuse to exist withon that framework to apply pressure to the former group. 
 

to me both methods of change need to be happening simultaneously in order for anything to actually happen. The infighting and tension are an essential part of the progression as well

I agree, both are important facets to radical change!

 

But I do think when the infighting results in the constant expulsion and rejection of anyone who doesn't outwardly align EXACTLY within the expected perimeters of progressiveness we lose a ton of traction in government. We've all had to "save face" in sh*tty work environments or nod in agreement with a boss that we can't stand in order to get closer to our own goals, so why do we expect anything less from progressive politicians too?

 

Politics is a game of influence and persuasion and I think AOC is playing a good game.