on the line Posted August 23 Posted August 23 6 hours ago, welham said: Show me where people said they'd vote for Trump instead. That's a disingenuous framing of the talking points most users here are making. Absolutely no one is thinking Trump would be better, but we're not going to "settle" for a "normal" ******* GENOCIDE instead of a worse one. Okay....but those are the options.
ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted August 23 ATRL Administrator Posted August 23 39 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: Indeed, I do believe that Palestinians have a right to armed resistance against the occupation, apartheid, and genocide. All resistance groups, including Hamas, are morally and legally legitimate and in complete accordance with International Law. The ICJ recently affirmed that as well. You and I don't get to determine "good" vs "bad" resistance here. It is not our place to tell them how to feel or what to do, especially when all of their peaceful efforts have been met with violence in the last +7 decades. As people who support Palestinian liberation, our obligation is to support all Palestinian resistance against the greatest source of violence which is the Israeli occupation. So, calling me "pro-Hamas supporter" isn't the serve you think it is. Meanwhile, it's you who still claim to be supportive of the Palestinian cause yet: you refer to resistance groups as terrorists, you don't like how they protest, you don't like that they're pushing a candidate for the presidency to do better, and you blame the murder of thousands of Palestinians on Hamas. You very clearly don't get the difference between acknowledging resistance movements and their right to resist their occupier VS agreeing with all of their ways. "I stand with Palestinians until they fight back" is just peak Liberal behavior. They literally committed a terrorist act. They literally hide among the very people they claim to protect. They’re no different than the IDF. The Palestinians deserve better. The fact that you consider Hamas “resistance” tells me everything I need to know. I pray for the day the Palestinians are free from their occupiers — the Israel terrorists and the terrorists that are Hamas. 1 3 2 4
Gov Hooka Posted August 23 Posted August 23 1 hour ago, The7thStranger said: That comparison doesn't quite hold up, as American citizens are not the main antagonist of the attacks on Gaza (Israel is). The parallel in your example would be Italians or Japanese citizens being complacent in what Germany was doing. But we also need to remember that they had very different geopolitical conditions than the US does right now, that is that American citizens still have the choice to voice their dissent and push back against further societal degradation. Very, very different set of circumstances. Also, I would urge you not to downplay the serious threat of Project 2025. We do have to think about POC communities, Ukrainians at risk of further attacks from Russia, undocumented immigrants, women's rights (particularly concerning domestic violence and abortion), and the rights of the LGBT community. I want Kamala and the established Democratic party to change and stop shouting down the voices that they claim to champion. But I'm not sure what you expect the average American voter to do... The ideology and justifications for looking the other way still hold the same. Israel is a de facto state in the US, Japan and Italy were still individual actors. Israel cannot function or exist without the US, which makes American taxpayers by proxy all complicit in Israel's war crimes to a degree greater than Japan or Italy wrt Nazi germany Undocumented immigrants, women's rights, trans rights have ALREADY been rolled back. Project 2025 isn't something brand new, several aspects of it are being implemented and upheld by a complacent liberal Dem establishment. Kamala hasn't even put out a proper plan to counteract project 2025… characterizing me saying that as Downplaying a serious *potential* threat rings kinda hollow when it's to defend an administration that has increased federal funding to police hiring programs and basically enacted trump's border policy wrt ending asylum, increasing detentions and deportations etc. 1 1 1
Gov Hooka Posted August 23 Posted August 23 14 minutes ago, Ryan said: They literally committed a terrorist act. They literally hide among the very people they claim to protect. They're no different than the IDF. The Palestinians deserve better. The fact that you consider Hamas "resistance" tells me everything I need to know. I pray for the day the Palestinians are free from their occupiers — the Israel terrorists and the terrorists that are Hamas. They literally didn't. It was a successful targeted attack against the Israeli military. Overwhelming majority of the "Israeli civilians" killed on Oct 7 were by the IOF's own fire via their Hannibal directive. Just genuinely shocked (but not surprised given your posts here) that you can even equate an ACTUAL terrorist org like the IOF and their indiscriminate slaughter to Hamas. You're one of those feckless rainbows and pony's liberal Zionists that doesn't actually want Palestinians to fight back. Tells me everything I need to know. They are a resistance group full stop and the majority of the world rejected the UN resolution to call them a terrorist org. 5 5
State of Grace. Posted August 23 Posted August 23 9 minutes ago, Ryan said: They literally committed a terrorist act. They literally hide among the very people they claim to protect. They're no different than the IDF. The Palestinians deserve better. The fact that you consider Hamas "resistance" tells me everything I need to know. I pray for the day the Palestinians are free from their occupiers — the Israel terrorists and the terrorists that are Hamas. Again, we can consider that civilian deaths on Oct 7th were a war crime. (And I'm not even gonna talk about how anyone that served in the IDF and every settler on illegal land already gave up that "civilian" title ). They are also factually existing in the context of the hundreds of war crimes Israel has committed before and after. You constantly fail to understand the root cause of this matter, and the reason a group like Hamas exists. And here you are once again pushing the "Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields" zionist propaganda and claiming that "Hamas are no different than the IDF". Save your prayers. You do not support the Palestinian people. No matter what they do, there will always be people like you who claim that they're against the illegal occupation and support a #FreePalestine, but still stand in the way of their liberation because...well they don't like how they're resisting! or because they'e too violent!! And frankly? I'm ******* tired of reading it. I'd rather see a raging Zionist celebrating butchered bodies. 4 5
ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted August 23 ATRL Administrator Posted August 23 19 minutes ago, Gov Hooka said: They literally didn't. It was a successful targeted attack against the Israeli military. Overwhelming majority of the "Israeli civilians" killed on Oct 7 were by the IOF's own fire via their Hannibal directive. Just genuinely shocked (but not surprised given your posts here) that you can even equate an ACTUAL terrorist org like the IOF and their indiscriminate slaughter to Hamas. You're one of those feckless rainbows and pony's liberal Zionists that doesn't actually want Palestinians to fight back. Tells me everything I need to know. They are a resistance group full stop and the majority of the world rejected the UN resolution to call them a terrorist org. 6 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: Again, we can consider that civilian deaths on Oct 7th were a war crime. (And I'm not even gonna talk about how anyone that served in the IDF and every settler on illegal land already gave up that "civilian" title ). They are also factually existing in the context of the hundreds of war crimes Israel has committed before and after. You constantly fail to understand the root cause of this matter, and the reason a group like Hamas exists. And here you are once again pushing the "Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields" zionist propaganda and claiming that "Hamas are no different than the IDF". Save your prayers. You do not support the Palestinian people. No matter what they do, there will always be people like you who claim that they're against the illegal occupation and support a #FreePalestine, but still stand in the way of their liberation because...well they don't like how they're resisting! or because they'e too violent!! And frankly? I'm ******* tired of reading it. I'd rather see a raging Zionist celebrating butchered bodies. You people demand conformity into your way of thinking. Good luck to your causes. Hopefully rational logic will win out and a peace deal will be reached. That’s the most important thing anyway. 7 1 4
Contessa Posted August 23 Posted August 23 I will not be voting, or will vote for a third party option. 1 2 5
on the line Posted August 23 Posted August 23 1 minute ago, Contessa said: I will not be voting, or will vote for a third party option. Thanks for letting me know to put you on ignore as your opinions are now invalid. Good luck booking that ceasefire you speak of. 4 7
Contessa Posted August 23 Posted August 23 2 minutes ago, on the line said: Thanks for letting me know to put you on ignore as your opinions are now invalid. Good luck booking that ceasefire you speak of. Uff if this is how you engage with politics. Good luck booking that future you speak of 3 3
The7thStranger Posted August 23 Posted August 23 49 minutes ago, Gov Hooka said: Israel cannot function or exist without the US, which makes American taxpayers by proxy all complicit in Israel's war This is such a logical break that I'm not even sure how to respond to the rest of your post... My tax dollars (theoretically, as I no longer live in the US despite being a US citizen) go toward a lot of things I don't agree with, including what I consider to be legalized slavery occuring in prisons across the entire country. And a police force that is not qualified to protect its citizens and often ends up murdering them without consequence. What would you like me to do in order to prevent that from happening? 54 minutes ago, Gov Hooka said: Undocumented immigrants, women's rights, trans rights have ALREADY been rolled back. Project 2025 isn't something brand new, They have been, primarily because the sitting president always has to fight against the framework installed by the previous administration. And I think Biden did a poor job of putting up that fight. The repeal and degradation of those rights would only accerelate at break-neck speeds under a Trump administration. I urge you to be more concerned about this. This and the very real threat of Trump offering increased support both to Israel to Russia, threatening the lives of the Palestinians and Ukrainians alike. I want the DNC to change. I cannot force it. So my question remains underanswered: What is it you want me and all voters to do on November 4? 2 1
family.guy123 Posted August 23 Posted August 23 10 minutes ago, The7thStranger said: This is such a logical break that I'm not even sure how to respond to the rest of your post... My tax dollars (theoretically, as I no longer live in the US despite being a US citizen) go toward a lot of things I don't agree with, including what I consider to be legalized slavery occuring in prisons across the entire country. And a police force that is not qualified to protect its citizens and often ends up murdering them without consequence. What would you like me to do in order to prevent that from happening? They have been, primarily because the sitting president always has to fight against the framework installed by the previous administration. And I think Biden did a poor job of putting up that fight. The repeal and degradation of those rights would only accerelate at break-neck speeds under a Trump administration. I urge you to be more concerned about this. This and the very real threat of Trump offering increased support both to Israel to Russia, threatening the lives of the Palestinians and Ukrainians alike. I want the DNC to change. I cannot force it. So my question remains underanswered: What is it you want me and all voters to do on November 4? Just vote for who you want and stop worrying what strangers, probably a lot of non-Americans, will think about you for it. 3
Virgos Groove Posted August 23 Posted August 23 They really had the daughter of a ******* Contra death squad member and the former aide of a fascist on stage, but "war is bad" is too radical of a message for them. What a morally bankrupt party. 2
The7thStranger Posted August 23 Posted August 23 6 minutes ago, family.guy123 said: Just vote for who you want and stop worrying what strangers, probably a lot of non-Americans, will think about you for it. I don't worry about it. Kamala has my vote. I'm just tired of this onus being placed upon voters and not upon the politicians. 1
LIT Posted August 23 Posted August 23 2 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said: They really had the daughter of a ******* Contra death squad member and the former aide of a fascist on stage, but "war is bad" is too radical of a message for them. What a morally bankrupt party. It's wild to me that they wouldn't even consider letting a Palestinian speaker on the stage *to endorse Harris and the Democratic Party*. It's not like these people were going to go on stage to condemn Harris as a war criminal génocidaire, or even to condemn the state of Israel - their plan was literally just to advocate for electing Harris over Trump. Seems like it would have been a shrewd, politically beneficial move for her campaign. Yet they couldn't even grant that! It's as if they consider any platforming whatsoever of any Palestinian as dangerous, as running the risk of humanizing the Palestinian people in the eyes of the public. I can only hope this serves as a wake-up call for all those who have been insisting that the Democratic Party is "the better choice for Palestine". 6 1
welham Posted August 23 Posted August 23 2 hours ago, on the line said: Okay....but those are the options. Lol. Lmao even. Sure. 1
on the line Posted August 23 Posted August 23 17 minutes ago, welham said: Lol. Lmao even. Sure. Thanks for identifying yourself to be added to the ignore list! 2 1 7
Gaia Posted August 23 Posted August 23 3 hours ago, Virgos Groove said: They really had the daughter of a ******* Contra death squad member and the former aide of a fascist on stage, but "war is bad" is too radical of a message for them. What a morally bankrupt party. They do not know if these people will go off script on live TV. Why would they risk it? There's been enough protesters saying Biden/Kamala are genocide enablers, murderers, etc. Do you think they'd risk that at the DNC? Use common sense. 2 2
Virgos Groove Posted August 23 Posted August 23 10 minutes ago, Gaia said: They do not know if these people will go off script on live TV. Why would they risk it? There's been enough protesters saying Biden/Kamala are genocide enablers, murderers, etc. Do you think they'd risk that at the DNC? Use common sense. What if an asteroid fell on the venue? What if the Joker showed up? 3 1
ClashAndBurn Posted August 23 Posted August 23 2 hours ago, Gaia said: They do not know if these people will go off script on live TV. Why would they risk it? She's literally an elected Democrat in a state legislature who has endorsed Kamala. The constant goalpost-moving and finding new excuses when presented with facts that show you Uncommitted was more than accommodating and the DNC was still stupid enough to burn that bridge because they value AIPAC and enabling genocide too much. 3 hours ago, Gaia said: There's been enough protesters saying Biden/Kamala are genocide enablers, murderers, etc. That's because every single person clapping like a braindead seal over Kamala's speech (that was so far right-wing it could've been classed as MAGA) is a genocide-enabler. Especially Killer Kamala and Genocide Joe.
toxicgenie Posted August 23 Posted August 23 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gaia said: They do not know if these people will go off script on live TV. Why would they risk it? There's been enough protesters saying Biden/Kamala are genocide enablers, murderers, etc. Do you think they'd risk that at the DNC? Use common sense. 3 hours ago, Virgos Groove said: What if an asteroid fell on the venue? What if the Joker showed up? How does a fictional character showing up at the DNC demonstrate common sense? Do you believe the great Hannibal Lecter is real too? Edited August 23 by toxicgenie 2
Virgos Groove Posted August 23 Posted August 23 18 minutes ago, toxicgenie said: How does a fictional character showing up at the DNC demonstrate common sense? Do you believe the great Hannibal Lecter is real too? Do you not know what a joke is? But if you want a serious answer to a non-issue so badly, here it is. The DNC had multiple Republican speakers (including a ******* Trump aide ) and no one worried if they would off-track or say something they shouldn't. Yet @Gaia wants to me to believe there was a chance that a Palestinian speaker with a moderate anti-war speech was gonna go Defcon 3 and call Kamala "Holocaust Harris" and call for a global intifada. Sure.
toxicgenie Posted August 24 Posted August 24 1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said: Do you not know what a joke is? But if you want a serious answer to a non-issue so badly, here it is. The DNC had multiple Republican speakers (including a ******* Trump aide ) and no one worried if they would off-track or say something they shouldn't. Yet @Gaia wants to me to believe there was a chance that a Palestinian speaker with a moderate anti-war speech was gonna go Defcon 3 and call Kamala "Holocaust Harris" and call for a global intifada. Sure. All the republican speakers who spoke endorsed Kamala and pledged to vote for her in November. Can we say the same for the protestors? I don't think so. Ever since Kamala got the nomination protestors have been confrontational, heckling her, calling her and her supporters names. They didn't vote for her, not even on the ceremonial convention vote to show good faith, but they want to be trusted with a platform in front of millions of Americans? Listen, I think the DNC should've allowed Palestinians to show a pre-recorded video message, but to argue as you do here, pretending the protestors didn't have a hand in how they're perceived is painting an alternate reality. 1 2 2
Communion Posted August 24 Author Posted August 24 On 8/22/2024 at 9:41 AM, Communion said: What are the intentions of these knee jerk claims that aren't rooted in fact? It's concerning given you're clearly knowledgeable about politics. 1) The Uncommitted delegates have said they have been requesting a speaking slot for weeks and gave the DNC a list of speaker choices with pre-vetted speeches to edit and approve. The options varied from elected Palestinian Americans to trusted figures like American doctors who spent time in Gaza. 2) I know you know you won't be able to provide me an example of an Uncommitted delegate calling Biden or Harris any kind of name. These people are registered delegates to the Democratic party. They are literal Democratic party members and partisans who have been lifelong operatives within the party's apparatus for years (many states don't even allow people to sign up to be delegates unless you're part of a club or org off-shoot of the state party). 3) They're uncommitted delegates because they represent Democratic voters who did not vote for Joe Biden in their Democratic primary and who voted for the still-not-available option of a Democratic nominee who does not support genocide. Trying to frame them as somehow not Democrats because they're uncommitted is silly when they're literally "Uncommitted Democrats". Why is there room in the Democratic party for anti-abortion Republicans and border patrol agents who support ICE separating immigrant refugee families but not Palestinian Democrats? On 8/22/2024 at 10:00 AM, Ryan said: So the Uncommitted Delegates are not associated in any way with the protester groups who call her "Killer Kamala"? If so, I apologize. Also I did not know they had requested to speak. I wasn't saying they aren't Democrats. I'm pointing out that the choreography of the DNC is about unity and they are not presently supporting the nominee because she is not doing exactly what they want her to do. Yes, I understand pushing her to their priorities. Yes, I understand that's the point of process to engage in discussions/negotiations to get her to move on policy. I disagree with your point that we do not have a Democrat nominee who does not support genocide. We don't have to debate this btw, I'm just stating my stance. Let me be clear, I think it's a gross error on the DNC's part to not allow Palestinian-American voices to speak. If we are the big tent party we claim to be, it's only right to give voice to a community who has seen 60K of their family, friends and others murdered by the IDF. Just wanted to follow up on this with the direct quote from the Uncommitted delegates - they were asking to work something out with the DNC since 2 months ago: Ruwa's speech in full that the DNC vetoed has also been shared on this page. 2
ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted August 24 ATRL Administrator Posted August 24 8 hours ago, Communion said: Just wanted to follow up on this with the direct quote from the Uncommitted delegates - they were asking to work something out with the DNC since 2 months ago: Ruwa's speech in full that the DNC vetoed has also been shared on this page. Thank you. I think her proposed speech was fine. However after seeing what she said on 10/7 I can understand why she was not chosen. That said there were still others who should have been allowed to speak. This was an unforced error on the Dems part.
heckinglovato Posted August 24 Posted August 24 On 8/23/2024 at 4:17 PM, Ryan said: They literally committed a terrorist act. They literally hide among the very people they claim to protect. They're no different than the IDF. The Palestinians deserve better. The fact that you consider Hamas "resistance" tells me everything I need to know. I pray for the day the Palestinians are free from their occupiers — the Israel terrorists and the terrorists that are Hamas. On 8/23/2024 at 5:00 PM, Ryan said: You people demand conformity into your way of thinking. Good luck to your causes. Hopefully rational logic will win out and a peace deal will be reached. That's the most important thing anyway. What do you mean by "you people"? Have you actually ever spoken to a Palestinian about this conflict? Do you just happen to live in one of the minority ~20ish countries that classify Hamas as a terrorist group?
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