news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Vermillion]

 

[Scars]

 

[Nicholai]

14 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

(I'm gonna put this tweet under a spoiler because even though it's not graphic, it's still... a lot, in emotional terms.)

 

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No one should be subjected to so much evil.

 

We're really about to witness (the final phase of) a genocide and not only are world leaders not doing anything to prevent it, they're actually giving unconditional support to the oppressors.

 

History will not look kindly on those who approached this situation with fake nuance and holier-than-thou "both sides"-ism.

 

Free Palestine. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

 

This reminds me of the armenian genocide. It will take some time for the world to understand what this really is but the time will come eventually and Israel will be seen as the evil state it is.

[Communion]

3 hours ago, wastedpotential said:

I mean my point was just to say that this will have a very limited effect on the upcoming US election either way because American voters don't usually make their presidential decision based on foreign policy, and that I agreed that Biden's seeming backpedaling on the Palestinian issue was from a PR perspective but that it probably doesn't have much to do with the election. The Democratic Party establishment leans Zionist to match the extent of Americans who lean Zionist, as seen in this poll from two days ago. There is certainly a notable pro-Palestinian undercurrent expressed by many members of the party, but they are the minority. You can call it 'dark-sided', but it is the objective truth that there is zero reason to expect this to have any effect on the popularity of and support for Biden or Trump or the Democratic or the Republican parties. As to my presence in this thread apparently making you uncomfortable, this is not a conflict that I feel I have developed a strong enough understanding to feel appropriate to comment on, and I've been reading through the posts here for educational purposes. I have no intention of wading into the specifics of the issue any further here, but I did want to address that user's comment that this would impact the election. 

Sis, these are the kind of USAID, NatcSec-leaning talking points I found uncomfortable, especially cause it feels like this kind of conversation purposefully perpetuates a circling-the-wagon behavior.

 

> Biden tweets out he spoke to Abbas... yet mainly about why Hamas must be condemned. 

 

> US foreign policy is clearly aligning to try and pressure Egypt to take 2M refugees, and when this is pointed out as amounting to ethnic cleansing, a user somehow responds with "well... do you want genocide???"

 

Electoralism seems like a petty squabble to touch on, but it also shouldn't be ignored just how gratuitous the West's support for mass Palestinian death is alienating Muslims in the West from parties like Labour or Democrats.

 

Someone like Gretchen Whitmer sounded like a dove in her statements compared to Biden who framed Palestinians as barbaric and whose secretary of state said Israel must be given anything they need.

 

Even Mehdi is pointing out the chance that this fractures Muslims from Democrats in a significant way:

And yet even when these realities bubble up to the surface, there's this kind of circling-the-wagon anxiety from again, very NatSec / establishment-obeying voices reminding us "YES, THIS IS SAD BUT THIS IS INEVITABLE NOW THAT ISRAEL'S 9/11 IS HERE; THIS IS JUST HOW IT IS, ISRAEL IS JUST GOING TO HAVE TO GET TO KILL PALESTINIANS; NO, NO CONSEQUENCES SHOULD BE FACED BY POLITICIANS IN THE WEST, LET'S NOT BE CHILDISH AND BE TEAM PLAYERS; YES, ISRAELI AID IS IN THE BILLIONS BUT WESTERN POLITICIANS CANNOT CHANGE THAT, WHY NOT BE HAPPY THAT BIDEN IS TRYING TO FIND TENTS FOR ALL THOSE GAZANS TO SLEEP UNDER IN THE SINAI??"

 

It's this "rules based order", Western-centric rhetoric where the West is given de-facto ownership and authority over the world's affairs. And how people keep tip-toeing around how the Western world has not given Palestinians any reason to think pleas and begging will produce any meaningful results for them.

 

We're soon to approach *double* the Palestinian deaths than Israeli deaths from just this week. And what has been the Western response? Western leaders decided what? Still working out the logistics to get Egypt to participate in the end of Gaza? Criminalize their own protestors? But this is just the way it is? The best we can hope for is what, Israel only kill 10,000 Gazans? 20,000 Gazans? Someone in this Thread just said this! 

 

For what reason does anyone, let alone Palestinians, have to respect or follow the Western world order when we are quickly approaching the reality that Gazans are being brought to slaughters like cattle by Biden, etc.?  Why expect them to follow the terms and conditions for liberation set by the West when it's clear countries like the US never want Palestinians to win or be liberated in the first place? And why parse words? If any American cares to claim about Palestinians, they should recognize their government will be responsible for their slaughter.

 

A surge in violence by Hamas was the result of a far-right Israeli government making it clear: "We will never see you as human; we will never live amongst you so give up." It must be made clear that Western leaders, no matter their own election concerns in their own borders, are doing the same accelerant by doing any option besides withholding aid from Israel until the concession that the occupation and apartheid of Palestine, that fuels this, ends.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Communion

[Nova_23]

As a Palestinian American I am not voting for Joe Biden in 2024 with the way he handled this situation. Dont be shocked to see other Arabs follow suit as I’ve already discussed this with family and friends and most have similar views. There are consequences for his “unconditional support for Israel,” including the murder of American children like this 6 year old boy who was murdered today in Chicago for being Muslim. 

 

 

 

The democrats probably lost 2024 because of how they handled this. There’s no coming back from it. You can’t unconditionally support the genocide of Palestinians then expect Arabs and especially Muslims to vote for you in the next election. 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Nova_23

[Riot]

 

It's really surreal to live during our time. Seeing people suffer in real time, but being completely unable to do anything about it.

 

Historians in the future will also have endless things to say about how the Western world handled the conflict in Ukraine vs. the one in Palestine.

[Aethereal]

7 minutes ago, Riot said:

 

Historians in the future will also have endless things to say about how the Western world handled the conflict in Ukraine vs. the one in Palestine.

And you don't have to worry about none of those conflicts unlike Ukrainians and Palestinians, there is no need to bring those comparisons. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Aristotle

[FOCK]

3 hours ago, Nova_23 said:

 

Can we start calling them Nazis now or? 

 

“Democracy”, “freedom”, where? 

[Riot]

3 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

And you don't have to worry about none of those conflicts unlike Ukrainians and Palestinians, there is no need to bring those comparisons. 

I worry because I'm seeing that our leaders (Europe, in my case) don't give a flying f**k about the genocide.

 

I remind you that these are the fundamental rights of the European Union:

• respect for human dignity,
• freedom,
• democracy,
• equality,
• the rule of law, and
• respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities.

Palestinians don't have any of that.

[Virgos Groove]

15 minutes ago, Riot said:

 

It's really surreal to live during our time. Seeing people suffer in real time, but being completely unable to do anything about it.

 

Historians in the future will also have endless things to say about how the Western world handled the conflict in Ukraine vs. the one in Palestine.

The same people who were advocating for no-fly-zones in Ukraine are same ones talking about "well, it's complicated" when it comes to Palestine.

 

The moment a US ally is being attacked, suddenly everyone understands uncritical support, lesser evil-ism and ends justifying means. It's crazy.

[Shelter]

19 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

 EU needs to grow a pair and do the same. 

[Aethereal]

10 minutes ago, Riot said:

I worry because I'm seeing that our leaders (Europe, in my case) don't give a flying f**k about the genocide.

 

I remind you that these are the fundamental rights of the European Union:

• respect for human dignity,
• freedom,
• democracy,
• equality,
• the rule of law, and
• respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities.

Palestinians don't have any of that.

I meant that you personally don't have to worry from Israel's rockets so there is no need to make comparison with Ukraine's situation. You can compare your  privileged life to Palestinians' if want to, but not others' struggles even if they are less severe. 

[Bhabylon]

Yeah, I will not be voting for Biden again.

[Illuminati]

4 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

The same people who were advocating for no-fly-zones in Ukraine are same ones talking about "well, it's complicated" when it comes to Palestine.

 

The moment a US ally is being attacked, suddenly everyone understands uncritical support, lesser evil-ism and ends justifying means. It's crazy.

People here act like the war in Ukraine has already ended The no fly zone (or any intervention) by most was seen as a "surefire way to drag us into WWIII" and "Russia would nuke the entire planet" but that somehow doesn't apply in this conflict even though Israel also has nukes.

 

It is complicated and the finger pointing at Ukraine isn't gonna make the terrible handling of this conflict or Palestinian lives any better.

[DAP]

Pretends to be shocked and undoubtedly he isn’t the only one 

[Thickorita]

2 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

It is complicated and the finger pointing at Ukraine isn't gonna make the terrible handling of this conflict or Palestinian lives any better.

No, but it does expose the rot of Western leaders and how little they think of brown lives. Discussion of narratives and propaganda is always a part of war analysis and the stark difference to the outburst of the Ukraine war is very telling.

[Riot]

15 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

I meant that you personally don't have to worry from Israel's rockets so there is no need to make comparison with Ukraine's situation. You can compare your  privileged life to Palestinians' if want to, but not others' struggles even if they are less severe. 

I'm not comparing Ukraine to Palestine nor saying that one is suffering more than the other, I'm comparing the two different and opposite responses that EUROPEAN LEADERS had.

 

Ursula von der Leyen literally said a few days ago that we must stand with Israel, while Israel was already telling Gaza residents to leave their houses.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Riot

[Aethereal]

5 minutes ago, Riot said:

I'm not comparing Ukraine to Palestine nor saying that one is suffering more than the other, I'm comparing the two different and opposite responses that EUROPEAN LEADERS had.

 

Ursula von der Leyen literally said a few days ago that we must stand with Israel, while Israel was already telling Gaza residents to leave their houses.

The West's stance towards Palestinians was mentioned successfully without bringing Ukraine many times in this thread. And there are bigger African genocides in the past 30 years that have received even less attention than the Palestinian one if we want to open that discussion here. 

 

 

[Communion]

19 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

People here act like the war in Ukraine has already ended The no fly zone (or any intervention) by most was seen as a "surefire way to drag us into WWIII" and "Russia would nuke the entire planet" but that somehow doesn't apply in this conflict even though Israel also has nukes.

 

It is complicated and the finger pointing at Ukraine isn't gonna make the terrible handling of this conflict or Palestinian lives any better.

This is an absurd statement because no one has argued, let alone because it'd never happen, for any country to launch the kind of military assistance to Palestine as we have seen be given to Ukraine. In fact, the scraps being fought for are people begging their governments to leverage their continued military aid *to Israel* to convince Israel to stop committing numerous human rights violations. That difference is being explored. From the bold, you'd think people were calling on Iran and Lebanon to start mass bombing, meanwhile the actual conversation is people distraught over their tax dollars funding murder and apologists being like "50,000 or so deaths won't be too many. Israel kind of deserves to get a little revenge, no?"

 

The knee jerk arguments when Ukraine is mentioned seem to intentionally miss that it's not downplaying or disregarding the struggle of Ukrainian people to point out the contradiction of Western governments rightfully recognizing Russian cruelty yet seemingly not being able to recognize the same cruelty when from Israel.

 

We literally have clips of Blinken and others saying Russia's attempts to cut off electricity, food, and water are lines that should never be crossed to only then say "it is absolutely Israel's right to cut off water" to Gaza.

 

That contradiction has to be dealt with. And I get the fear of people using such contradiction to cast doubt on the side of Ukraine, instead of demanding moral consistency from the West in holding Israel accountable, but then I encourage every person who supports Ukraine and doesn't want that to happen to throw their full-throated support behind Palestine and the fight for Palestinian liberation for moral consistency.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Communion

[wastedpotential]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

Sis, these are the kind of USAID, NatcSec-leaning talking points I found uncomfortable, especially cause it feels like this kind of conversation purposefully perpetuates a circling-the-wagon behavior.

 

Again, I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable to think about, but stating that the majority of Democrats (and the vast majority of Republicans; and thus the overall vast majority of Americans writ large) are incredibly Zionist. They are the majority of the population who supported the creation of and funding for USAID and have consistently voted in governments who are "strong" on NatSec. There are portions of the Democratic Party (mainly the Muslim minority or the strong anti-colonial factions) that are pro-Palestine, but they don't have the numbers or power as an electoral base to have much meaningful impact in Washington beyond sparking discourse and protests (and those protests will remain inneffective until and unless they grow to include a majority; if they grow violent all that will achieve is the further pro-Zionism-ization of the leadership) and at the end of the day, are still strongly out-numbered by pro-Zionism Democrats (as it stands now, there are more Jews in the US than there are Muslims, and those Jews are also strongly in the Democrat faction and generally do wield an outsized degree of political power and influence, even when discounting anti-Zionism Jews). It has very gruesome outcomes in this conflict, but that's literally just the fact of the matter in the US political space today. 

 

1 hour ago, Communion said:

> Biden tweets out he spoke to Abbas... yet mainly about why Hamas must be condemned. 

 

> US foreign policy is clearly aligning to try and pressure Egypt to take 2M refugees, and when this is pointed out as amounting to ethnic cleansing, a user somehow responds with "well... do you want genocide???"

 

All this goes to show is that, at least to the minds of Biden's team of political analysts and pollsters, the American populace is far more anti-Hamas than it is anti-Zionism. Apart from being tools of propaganda, the reason the mainstream media in the US is covering this issue the way that they are is because they also think it's what's popular with the consumers of the news. I can't speak to the specific comments of any other user on this website, but if I'm understanding your comment correctly, then their rationale would be along the lines of "well, Biden is the only person on the planet with a reasonable chance of being able to stop Netanyahu from committing genocide, and Biden has clearly stated that he is not going to do that, and millions of Palestinians being moved to a refugee camp in Egypt (probably permanently, yes), is a better outcome than millions of Palestinians being killed", which I don't necessarily think is a wrong way to look at the issue in a practical way. Both options are entirely reprehensible, but if those truly are the only two options (which, to my perspective, seems to be likely given how the US is not backing down from its rhetoric and how the IDF is moving right now), is it not the lesser of the two evils for the Palestinians to at least be alive? I'm sure you'll crucify me for that comment, but I would like for you to present an actionable third path forward that has a chance of actually playing out given the circumstances. I am not advocating for or endorsing either genocide or ethnic cleansing (and find it deeply upsetting and disgusting that we have reached this point), but the Biden Administration has given the Israeli government carte blanche here, and those are the two options they are likely to pursue, and I literally cannot think of any other viable outcome or way to exert any influence over the issue. Please, if you have a viable suggestion, I would love to hear it. 

 

1 hour ago, Communion said:

Electoralism seems like a petty squabble to touch on, but it also shouldn't be ignored just how gratuitous the West's support for mass Palestinian death is alienating Muslims in the West from parties like Labour or Democrats.

 

Someone like Gretchen Whitmer sounded like a dove in her statements compared to Biden who framed Palestinians as barbaric and whose secretary of state said Israel must be given anything they need.

 

Even Mehdi is pointing out the chance that this fractures Muslims from Democrats in a significant way:

 

Except in democracies, electoralism is the single driving force behind government action. In the US, I don't think any Democrat who isn't running in Michigan (and probably some districts in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, or Minnesota), such as Gretchen Whitmer, are particularly concerned about alienating Muslims given their relatively small population. I can certainly see it being a bigger issue for the UK, but even if the UK did make a hard turn and pulled all support from Israel, that still wouldn't have much impact on the path of Israel going forward, as the UK does not have nearly the same degree of sway over Israel (though, for what it's worth, I think Labour would be a lot more pro-Palestine if they weren't trying to attract back some of the wider support Jeremy Corbyn lost). The only way to circumvent the power the electorate wields over the government would be to de-democratize and move in a very autocratic direction. I cannot imagine a hypothetical autocratic-US that is pro-Palestine at all (given the prevailing ideology amongst the military and the gun owners of this country [ie those who would have the means to overthrow the current government]), and such a move would only provide the government greater means to silence the opposition (who would very probably be the pro-Palestinian faction). Electoralism, at least in the US system, is messy because it allows the majority of voters on any given issue to run over any minority who stands in their way, and in the US today, pro-Palestine and anti-Zionism arguments are firmly in the minority. 

 

1 hour ago, Communion said:

And yet even when these realities bubble up to the surface, there's this kind of circling-the-wagon anxiety from again, very NatSec / establishment-obeying voices reminding us "YES, THIS IS SAD BUT THIS IS INEVITABLE NOW THAT ISRAEL'S 9/11 IS HERE; THIS IS JUST HOW IT IS, ISRAEL IS JUST GOING TO HAVE TO GET TO KILL PALESTINIANS; NO, NO CONSEQUENCES SHOULD BE FACED BY POLITICIANS IN THE WEST, LET'S NOT BE CHILDISH AND BE TEAM PLAYERS; YES, ISRAELI AID IS IN THE BILLIONS BUT WESTERN POLITICIANS CANNOT CHANGE THAT, WHY NOT BE HAPPY THAT BIDEN IS TRYING TO FIND TENTS FOR ALL THOSE GAZANS TO SLEEP UNDER IN THE SINAI??"

 

It's this "rules based order", Western-centric rhetoric where the West is given de-facto ownership and authority over the world's affairs. And how people keep tip-toeing around how the Western world has not given Palestinians any reason to think pleas and begging will produce any meaningful results for them.

 

We're soon to approach *double* the Palestinian deaths than Israeli deaths from just this week. And what has been the Western response? Western leaders decided what? Still working out the logistics to get Egypt to participate in the end of Gaza? Criminalize their own protestors? But this is just the way it is? The best we can hope for is what, Israel only kill 10,000 Gazans? 20,000 Gazans? Someone in this Thread just said this! 

 

I can definitely understand your argument here, and to a degree I can agree with the underlying logic (that it would be best for everyone but the US military-industrial complex and big oil companies for the US to pull back from its role as "global policeman" or whatever and focus more on internal issues), but things have developed the way that they have, and the current "rules-based" order where the powerful political actors within major players have no real sympathy for the Palestinian cause right now, so I don't exactly know how I should respond to this. There is literally no one with the means to "punish" Biden or Sunak or whoever for trying to push Gazans into Egyptian refugee camps. I'm not sure if you've made the connection, but war crimes tribunals are only ever set up to go after the losers of wars, and there's literally zero chance of the US (and by extension Israel) actually "losing" this war. Crimes against Humanity charges are only enforceable if the US wants them to be (I mean, if someone tried to put Netanyahu before the ICC I am positive that the US congress would invoke the The Hague Invasion Act and get him out before he could be thrown into a US funded prison). Yeah, it is incredibly unfortunate, but there's literally nothing we can do about it but ***** in this thread. 

 

1 hour ago, Communion said:

For what reason does anyone, let alone Palestinians, have to respect or follow the Western world order when we are quickly approaching the reality that Gazans are being brought to slaughters like cattle by Biden, etc.?  Why expect them to follow the terms and conditions for liberation set by the West when it's clear countries like the US never want Palestinians to win or be liberated in the first place? And why parse words? If any American cares to claim about Palestinians, they should recognize their government will be responsible for their slaughter.

 

A surge in violence by Hamas was the result of a far-right Israeli government making it clear: "We will never see you as human; we will never live amongst you so give up." It must be made clear that Western leaders, no matter their own election concerns in their own borders, are doing the same accelerant by doing any option besides withholding aid from Israel until the concession that the occupation and apartheid of Palestine, that fuels this, ends.

Again, no one country or individual has to respect or follow the western world order to the degree that they might not want to (see North Korea, Iran, or Russia), but the western world order holds a great deal of coercive power to entice people and countries into following (and the methods to discourage actively going against the western world order; again, see North Korea, Iran, or Russia). It is, for whatever reason, not in the current interests of western leaders with influence to care about what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians (it's great to see the Colombian government starting to take a stand, but what real impact will that have?), the Palestinians do not have the mechanisms to change the interests of western leaders, and the members of the population in the west who disagree with their governments will probably never wield the power to change things (the current political interests are too firmly entrenched), what feasible way forward is there where this ends with a Palestinian "victory" in any real form beyond survival (even after an ethnic cleansing)? Short of a mass movement of Robespierre-style guillotining or a Bolshevik-style revolution in the US, and a complete reorganization of the political elite (which is practically impossible given the repressive powers of that elite), there is no real way forward that does not end with thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of Palestinian deaths; such a solution would instead probably sacrifice a few thousand Americans to a bloody revolution instead. Perhaps I'm incredibly nihilistic in my thinking, but I'm very much a big picture thinker, and the big picture, real world factors all stack firmly against Palestine. The only people with the potential ability to possibly influence the political thinking of the only person with the coercive ability to stop Israel from committing atrocities are the average American voter (because the fringes on both sides will not appeal to Biden or the congressional leadership [though, if Jim Jordan gets through, then he may have an ear for the pro-fascism, anti-semitic factions of the far right]), and the average American voter is either apathetic, sorry for both sides, or staunchly pro-Israel. The current protests on the streets are not nearly big enough in scale to change things, and if they turn violent, all it will do is alienate the rest of the electorate from the cause. 

 

I certainly don't blame you (or anyone in this thread) from using this thread as a place of venting, or resource coordination (to whatever degree of impact that may have), or education, or of shutting down pro-genocide shills, but I've personally stayed out of it for so long (despite being a very active reader), because it seems pretty hopeless to me right now, and because much of the discussion has been far too concentrated on the micro-scale and the day-to-day for my knowledge to be relevant or applicable. Again, if you have any positive angles that I'm too cynical to see, please share them. 

 

Sorry for unloading and for being as callous as I have been (I don't want to upset anyone, but I think people are missing the forest for the trees), I'll step off the soap box now. 

 

EDIT: One final thought - every voter in the US who is turned away from Biden by this and casts their ballot for a third-party candidate or just abstains from voting in general is lowering the vote threshold that Trump or any other Republican who may take his place should he be barred from running will need by one. I strongly agree that Biden is handling this situation horribly, but I also know that Trump (or Ramaswamy or DeSantis or Haley or whoever else) would be handling it far worse, and will handle it worse (at least worse than Biden has so far) on January 21st, 2025, should they win. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by wastedpotential

[Gaia]

1 hour ago, Nova_23 said:

As a Palestinian American I am not voting for Joe Biden in 2024 with the way he handled this situation. Dont be shocked to see other Arabs follow suit as I’ve already discussed this with family and friends and most have similar views. There are consequences for his “unconditional support for Israel,” including the murder of American children like this 6 year old boy who was murdered today in Chicago for being Muslim. 

 

 

 

The democrats probably lost 2024 because of how they handled this. There’s no coming back from it. You can’t unconditionally support the genocide of Palestinians then expect Arabs and especially Muslims to vote for you in the next election. 

 

I say this genuinely, who would you support then? Because the right are the most extreme Islamophobic people I’ve met in the US. 
 

Im from the suburbs of Georgia and can tell you voting Republican would be the complete opposite of your interests as well. 
 

for the past decade the elections have seemed to be “voting lesser of the evils” and not necessarily voting for the candidate that you genuinely liked. 
 

Would you sit out the next election? Vote trump? Vote independent? 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Gaia

[Illuminati]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

This is an absurd statement because no one has argued, let alone because it'd never happen, for any country to launch the kind of military assistance to Palestine as we have seen be given to Ukraine.

That's what I was addressing. The people here who for some reason, despite what you said, expected the exact same assistance. Why else would they drag in Ukraine into this. I find it counterproductive to both causes.

 

Then there's a part where you're implying that everyone has the same demands as you and you know it's not the case because even people here can't seem to have a general agreement on how to handle this, let alone a wider group of supporters. I agree with the rest though

[Aethereal]

Gaza Strip:

2,670 killed

9,600 wounded

1,000,000 displaced

 

Inside Israel (Israeli claim):

1,000 militants killed

 

West Bank:

54 killed

300 wounded

 

Lebanon:

12–14 killed

 

Israel:

1,400+ killed

3,400 wounded

200+ abducted

60,000+ displaced

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel–Hamas_war

[nooniebao]

 

[airplane]