news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Jjang]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:55 AM, Harrier said:

There's nothing I don't "get", miss smug. I know what you people believe and why you believe it.  I also have never made an argument about "angry homosexuals" and have fought against the "Gazans dont support your gay rights" narrative several times. But this is always the case with online leftists - everyone who disagrees in any way is put in the same camp - see the above post as well. I'm a zionist that loves Israel because I think Hamas is bad and supporting them is bad for Palestinans.

 

It's incredibly fascinating how people can get so self righteous and self assured that they think pushing back on open support and celebration of Islamist groups is somehow controversial, and worthy of smug jeering. You can't make up the derangement

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There is absolutely something you don't get, Miss Smug. You don't get that your energy here is completely and utterly useless and certainly not what Palestinians need right now. In case you didn't notice, our tolerance here for anyone not siding with us is not because we're some crazy leftists but because the case we are defending is a century-old systemic oppression day in and day out that Palestinians have been subjected to. That's why we're not tolerant. we could not give a rat's ass about your pseudo-intelligent nuanced opinion in times of ongoing genocide. 

 

Both secular and Islamist Palestinian liberation fronts were rejected by Israel. If tomorrow a new secular & ultra gay-friendly Palestinian liberation front morphed Israel is gonna try to kill them tomorrow. Their anti-Palestinian systemic racism and their plight to never give Palestinians their right to self-determination is the issue we're trying to tackle here.

 

The only reason Hamas was able to thrive and become so hostile is precisely because of the blockade culture that Israel created in Gaza. So any way you are going to try to turn it around, the source issue remains Israel's existence. There are extremist Islamic groups that are bad for citizens in Lebanon and Jordan too, does that mean they should live indefinitely under occupation until that's resolved? Do you also want me to mention a bunch of resistance groups throughout history that did not give a **** about civilians that now history praises regardless? 

 

And by all means, let us Palestinians protest Hamas once Palestine is free. Let us protest our gay rights once Palestine is free. You don't get to dictate the terms and conditions of our freedom and only then we can entertain the idea of living freely on our ******* land. **** that bs.

 

And there's something very orientalist about objecting to ExtRemIst ISlAmic OrGaniZations as if the Middle East is not mainly a Muslim region.  That's the situation in that region and that's the cards we're dealt with. You either make the effort to grasp this reality and pick up the conversation from where it's at or you're against us. Sawry miss smug! 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Jjang

[Harrier]

  On 12/25/2023 at 12:31 PM, Jjang said:

There is absolutely something you don't get, Miss Smug. You don't get that your energy here is completely and utterly useless and certainly not what Palestinians need right now. In case you didn't notice, our tolerance here for anyone not siding with us is not because we're some crazy leftists but because the case we are defending is a century-old systemic oppression day in and day out that Palestinians have been subjected to. That's why we're not tolerant. we could not give a rat's ass about your pseudo-intelligent nuanced opinion in times of ongoing genocide. 

 

Both secular and Islamist Palestinian liberation fronts were rejected by Israel. If tomorrow a new secular & ultra gay-friendly Palestinian liberation front morphed Israel is gonna try to kill them tomorrow. Their anti-Palestinian systemic racism and their plight to never give Palestinians their right to self-determination is the issue we're trying to tackle here.

 

The only reason Hamas was able to thrive and become so hostile is precisely because of the blockade culture that Israel created in Gaza. So any way you are going to try to turn it around, the source issue remains Israel's existence. There are extremist Islamic groups that are bad for citizens in Lebanon and Jordan too, does that mean they should live indefinitely under occupation until that's resolved? Do you also want me to mention a bunch of resistance groups throughout history that did not give a **** about civilians that now history praises regardless? 

 

And by all means, let us Palestinians protest Hamas once Palestine is free. Let us protest our gay rights once Palestine is free. You don't get to dictate the terms and conditions of our freedom and only then we can entertain the idea of living freely on our ******* land. **** that bs.

 

And there's something very orientalist about objecting to ExtRemIst ISlAmic OrGaniZations as if the Middle East is not mainly a Muslim region.  That's the situation in that region and that's the cards we're dealt with. You either make the effort to grasp this reality and pick up the conversation from where it's at or you're against us. Sawry miss smug! 

 

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You say Palestinians can protest Hamas after Palestine is free - so after Hamas achieves its goals?  Your nationalist delusion will not happen. Palestine will not be from river to sea, not unless israel is bombed into submission by Iran or something. Israel will not cease to exist without extreme, completely unjustifiable violence. It is an entrenched modern state with the backing of a superpower, and the UN recognition of virtually every state outside of the Islamic world. We are completely powerless to do anything about it, especially those of us who aren't American. Face that reality.

 

Is it justice? No. Should it be this way? No. I have always said that Israel should never have existed. But peace is more important than justice. The lives of Palestinian children are more important than one free state. The sacrificial, martryed, revolutionary politics of Hamas and their supporters in the online left makes pawns of innocent Palestinians in service of an impossible goal. Accepting Israel's existence and pushing for hard immediate peace is the only way forward and I will continue to fight anyone who says otherwise regardless of who you are or whatever any of you think of me. Violence will end only in genocide.

 

 

[Jjang]

  On 12/25/2023 at 12:52 PM, Harrier said:

Your nationalist delusions will not happen. 

Palestine will not be from river to sea, not unless israel is bombed into submission by Iran or something. Israel will not cease to exist without extreme, completely unjustifiable violence. It is an entrenched modern state with the backing of a superpower, and the UN recognition of virtually every state outside of the Islamic world. We are completely powerless to do anything about it, especially those of us who aren't American. Face that reality.

 

Is it justice? No. Should it be this way? No. I have always said that Israel should never have existed. But peace is more important than justice. The lives of Palestinian children are more important than one free state. The sacrificial, martryed, revolutionary politics of Hamas and their supporters in the online left makes pawns of innocent Palestinians in service of an impossible goal. Accepting Israel's existence and pushing for hard immediate peace is the only way forward and I will continue to fight anyone who says otherwise regardless of who you are or whatever any of you think of me. Violence will end only in genocide.

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The same was said by apartheid South Africa for 40 years and colonial Algeria for 130 years. If anything, we're closer to a one-state solution conversation than we've ever been in terms of public discourse. The support Palestinians are receiving internationally is also beyond unprecedented. 

 

So basically, in short, you are here to taunt Palestinians in bad faith, tell them they're delusional for believing in a world where they are free, and that the only thing they should strive for is to continue getting murdered and humiliated by Israel day in and day out, but they should do it silently. Your solution is that Palestinians should just accept death.

 

Palestinians haven't had a day of peace or justice for nearly 100 years now. Way, way, way, way before Hamas was even a thing. 

 

Also, that's a horrendous quote. Did you steal it from Yuval Harrari? lol. 

 

You know you could just have entered this thread and wrote "it is what it is, Palestinians should just continue to die quietly" and be honest with yourself because clearly that's your opinion. Glad I exposed your fake psuedo nuanced other opinion you were trying to insert here. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Jjang

[Jjang]

anyway, my friend's cousin in Hebron is still under arrest (for quite literally nothing, and by that I mean nothing) and has been kidnapped from his family for nearly a month now. 

 

Should he just follow Miss Harrier's advice and choose peace? let me call my friend to tell his cousin to do a peace sign to the nice soldiers, I'm sure that will get him out and free him in the non-Hamas governed Hebron.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Jjang

[Harrier]

  On 12/25/2023 at 1:08 PM, Jjang said:

The same was said by apartheid South Africa for 40 years and colonial Algeria for 130 years. If anything, we're closer to a one-state solution conversation than we've ever been in terms of public discourse. The support Palestinians are receiving internationally is also beyond unprecedented. 

 

So basically, in short, you are here to taunt Palestinians in bad faith, tell them they're delusional for believing in a world where they are free, and that the only thing they should strive for is to continue getting murdered and humiliated by Israel day in and day out, but they should do it silently. Your solution is that Palestinians should just accept death.

 

Palestinians haven't had a day of peace or justice for nearly 100 years now. Way, way, way, way before Hamas was even a thing. 

 

Also, that's a horrendous quote. Did you steal it from Yuval Harrari? lol. 

 

You know you could just have entered this thread and wrote "it is what it is, Palestinians should just continue to die quietly" and be honest with yourself because clearly that's your opinion. Glad I exposed your fake psuedo nuanced other opinion you were trying to insert here. 

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There is indeed more international support for Palestine now than there was 15 years ago - but why is that? It's because of the death. It's because of the current genocide. This is the matyrdom politics in action. How many tens of thousands more must be sacrificed to Israel's brutality for the one state utopia to become a reality?

 

South Africa was a state ruled by less than 10% of its population. Ditto Algeria. It is in no way comparable to a modern state with a strong ethnic majority. 

 

I use the harsh words I use because I want people to face reality. I don't want Palestinians to be silent and die - I want them to make the best of an unjust situation and do what is right for the safety and security of their children, as many colonised groups around the world have done before. And the first step in that path is the acceptance of Israel's existence.

[State of Grace.]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:55 AM, Harrier said:

There's nothing I don't "get", miss smug. I know what you people believe and why you believe it.  I also have never made an argument about "angry homosexuals" and have fought against the "Gazans dont support your gay rights" narrative several times. But this is always the case with online leftists - everyone who disagrees in any way is put in the same camp - see the above post as well. I'm a zionist that loves Israel because I think Hamas is bad and supporting them is bad for Palestinans.

 

It's incredibly fascinating how people can get so self righteous and self assured that they think pushing back on open support and celebration of Islamist groups is somehow controversial, and worthy of smug jeering. You can't make up the derangement

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I think @Jjang already said it all much more eloquently than I could have so I'll just add my two cents.

 

First of all, no one here was cheering for the Houthis or supporting them. We're just cackling at the Biden Admin getting humiliated again. If you don't see the difference, then that's on you. 

 

Now I do know you're not a Zionist and you haven't been doing Israel apologia like other members here, but you're sincerely not you’re not doing Palestinians or their cause any good with your "I support Palestinians but Hamas is bad for them" energy. 

 

We've also had this exact same conversation several times before and you still don't get it:

  On 12/2/2023 at 11:19 AM, State of Grace. said:

Exactly. You simply don't get what resistance is. And you very clearly don't get the difference between acknowledging resistance movements and their right to resist their occupier and oppressor VS agreeing with all of their ways. This has been clear since day one.

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  On 11/6/2023 at 2:16 PM, State of Grace. said:

I think one of the most bizarre things to me about that user is the fact that they're not even white. You would think someone with his racial background would understand that appealing to the conscience of the oppressor never works and that the whole "responding to violence with violence is bad uwu" is pure bullshit. Like...Civil Rights Movement? Hello? I'm not about to give history lessons  I actually really don't give a single **** if you think I'm a "terrorist", but history has shown us several times that oppressors/occupiers do not "peacefully" leave people and their lands. Nobody likes to see blood being shed, but decolonization always comes with horrific violence. You don't like that? Either don't colonize in the first place or maybe hand people their lands and rights back. Settlers can wake up tomorrow and be like "You know what? We're actually sorry for stealing your lands and treating you as subhuman. We just want to live here with you with the exact same human rights and no privileges or laws of ethnic supremacy." But that **** only happens in fictional movies/books.

Black people fought, struggled, and violently resisted Jim Crow laws and South African Apartheid.

Jewish people violently resisted the Nazi regime in Warsaw.

Irish people violently resisted British rule.

Algerians violently resisted the French colonization.

Ukraine is violently resisting and fighting back.

etc. etc. etc.

 

Do they not deserve our support and sympathy? Would you have stood and told them "hmm maybe you should try protesting peacefully" with a full chest?

 

No matter what Palestinians do, there will always be people like him who claim that they're against the illegal occupation and support a #FreePalestine, but still stand in the way of their liberation because...they don't like the way they're resisting. Anyway, I'm pretty sure this thread has been posted here before but I'll leave it again as a reminder for anyone still asking this question.

 

 

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I'm sure you will consider this a "pro-Hamas" talking point, but again, we just recognize the right of occupied people to resist their occupier and respond to +7 decades of brutal occupation. All of this "I just want peace" crap is good and all that, but it remains completely useless when Israel itself doesn't want peace and has never ever existed in peace.

 

People like you were also calling my North African great-grandparents savage terrorists when they were resisting and fighting the French occupation. It's the same talking point. Every single liberation movement in history was labeled a "terrorist organization" by its oppressor.

 

So if there's anyone here cheering on terrorists and violent groups, it's the Israel/IDF apologists and Biden stans constantly arguing against a ceasefire. Now that is pure derangement. 

[Wolf Alice]

  On 12/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, Harrier said:

I want them to make the best of an unjust situation and do what is right for the safety and security of their children, as many colonised groups around the world have done before

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So basically let the oppressors bleed them dry till there is nothing else to give and then maybe rebuild from whatever's left if the oppressors decide to spare something. Must be great typing that from wherever safe place you are in.

[Harrier]

  On 12/25/2023 at 1:34 PM, State of Grace. said:

I think @Jjang already said it all much more eloquently than I could have so I'll just add my two cents.

 

First of all, no one here was cheering for the Houthis or supporting them. We're just cackling at the Biden Admin getting humiliated again. If you don't see the difference, then that's on you. 

 

Now I do know you're not a Zionist and you haven't been doing Israel apologia like other members here, but you're sincerely not you’re not doing Palestinians or their cause any good with your "I support Palestinians but Hamas is bad for them" energy. 

 

We've also had this exact same conversation several times before and you still don't get it:

I'm sure you will consider this a "pro-Hamas" talking point, but again, we just recognize the right of occupied people to resist their occupier and respond to +7 decades of brutal occupation. All of this "I just want peace" crap is good and all that, but it remains completely useless when Israel itself doesn't want peace and has never ever existed in peace.

 

People like you were also calling my North African great-grandparents savage terrorists when they were resisting and fighting the French occupation. It's the same talking point. Every single liberation movement in history was labeled a "terrorist organization" by its oppressor.

 

So if there's anyone here cheering on terrorists and violent groups, it's the Israel/IDF apologists and Biden stans constantly arguing against a ceasefire. Now that is pure derangement. 

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But this is my point though - if we are for ceasefire, as I of course am - is that not the path of peace? Is that not the path of ending violence, including the resistance violence of Hamas?

 

You all are essentially making an argment against ceasefire. You are arguing from the same position as those who chanted "no peace on stolen land" in Brooklyn (  ) a few weeks ago. If groups have the right to resist in whatever manner they see fit - then it follows from that you think that Hamas should continue to fight for years to come, regardless of the toll inflicted on Gazans. This is why I say the pro-violence online left, call people tankies etc. It is a position that is fundamentally against peace.

 

For the record, I do appreciate you not putting me in a box with zionists and Israel apologists - that goes a long way with me, so thank you.

[State of Grace.]

  On 12/25/2023 at 1:47 PM, Harrier said:

But this is my point though - if we are for ceasefire, as I of course am - is that not the path of peace? Is that not the path of ending violence, including the resistance violence of Hamas?

 

You all are essentially making an argment against ceasefire. You are arguing from the same position as those who chanted "no peace on stolen land" in Brooklyn (  ) a few weeks ago. If groups have the right to resist in whatever manner they see fit - then it follows from that you think that Hamas should continue to fight for years to come, regardless of the toll inflicted on Gazans. This is why I say the pro-violence online left, call people tankies etc. It is a position that is fundamentally against peace.

 

For the record, I do appreciate you not putting me in a box with zionists and Israel apologists - that goes a long way with me, so thank you.

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But Hamas is also calling for a permanent ceasefire. They're only rejecting the "temporary humanitarian pause" and "sustainable ceasefire" offers.

 

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Hamas rejects any further temporary pause and says it will discuss only a permanent ceasefire. Israel has ruled that out and says it will agree only limited humanitarian pauses until Hamas is defeated.

 

"Hamas' stance remains: they don't have a desire for humanitarian pauses. Hamas wants a complete end to the Israeli war on Gaza," a Palestinian official said.

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu repeated that the war would end only with Hamas eradicated, all hostages freed and Gaza posing no more threat to Israel.

 

"Whoever thinks we will stop is detached from reality...All Hamas terrorists, from the first to the last, are dead men walking," he said in a statement on Wednesday.

 

Israel has faced increasing pressure from its Western allies to curb a military onslaught in Gaza that has laid waste to much of the densely populated coastal enclave.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-battles-hamas-streets-gaza-city-un-delays-vote-again-2023-12-20/

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It just goes to show you that Israel couldn't care any less about the hostages and their civilians considering they're refusing to stop until "all Hamas terrorists" (ie all Gazans) are dead.

Edited December 25, 2023 by State of Grace.

[Jjang]

  On 12/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, Harrier said:

There is indeed more international support for Palestine now than there was 15 years ago - but why is that? It's because of the death. It's because of the current genocide. This is the matrydom politics in action. How many tens of thousands more must be sacrificed to Israel's brutality for the one state utopia to become a reality?

 

South Africa was a state ruled by less than 10% of its population. Ditto Algeria. It is in no way comparable to a modern state with a strong ethnic majority. 

 

I use the harsh words I use because I want people to face reality. I don't want Palestinians to be silent and die - I want them to make the best of an unjust situation and do what is right for the safety and security of their children, as many colonised groups around the world have done before. And the first step in that path is the acceptance of Israel's existence.

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Not true. Yes, the numbers are horrifying this time around but Palestinians have been murdered in the thousands for decades. Heck, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the non-Hamas governed West Bank by June of this year.

 

What happened is the digital intifada that took place in May of 2021 after the forced displacement of Palestinian families from Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan - more specifically the protest campaigns led by Mohammed and Muna El Kurd. That's when public opinion began to majorly shift and even the terminology of which we discuss this issue changed.

 

I also hope you realize more than a million French settlers withdrew from Algeria during that time. Many Israeli settlers will do the same. 15% of them already have dual citizenship and many others have an accessible route to apply for other citizenship such as Portuguese or Polish. Meanwhile, Palestinians are indefinitely stateless.

 

As of now, in the region that the Israeli government classifies as "Israel" 7 million Jews and 8 million Palestinians live. Not including the millions of Palestinian refugees awaiting their right to return - with the majority of them living in neighboring countries. 

 

  Quote

I use the harsh words I use because I want people to face reality. I don't want Palestinians to be silent and die - I want them to make the best of an unjust situation and do what is right for the safety and security of their children, as many colonised groups around the world have done before. And the first step in that path is the acceptance of Israel's existence.

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So they should accept the existence of an oppressive entity that does not accept their existence? They should accept an oppressive entity whose entire existence relies systemically on their erasure? what kind of ****** up logic is that.   All colonized people rejected their colonizers, not just Palestinians. 

 

Jeez, I truly wonder what your reaction would be if a soldier shot and killed your mother in front of your eyes. I'm 100% sure you'd instantly go hug him in that moment, whisper "I radically accept your existence" and live happily ever after. 

 

stop minimizing the scope of our humanity. Our anger is justified, our resilience is justified. Were not some crazy Arabs that have barbaric genes running in our veins. We are a people dealing with an ideology (Zionism) that would never compromise its stance of rejecting our existence. That's the story. There's no other one. Secular, white, brown, gay, hijabi, non-hijabi, lesbians, binary, nonbinary, mothers, fathers, children, aggressive, non-aggressive, angry, not angry, educated, not educated - all Palestinians of all kinds are oppressed by Israel for simply being Palestinian. That's the common denominator and there's no way to un-Palestinian ourselves. It's not an "ok you recognize Israel you get rights" but "Your other friend is sassy towards Israel so he doesn't get rights" situation - all of us don't get our rights because we're Palestinians. 

 

Like... I don't know how to make this case simpler for you. Life does not operate under Disney movie logic. 

 

 

Anyway, way before Hamas: 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Jjang

[Headlock]

  On 12/25/2023 at 12:52 PM, Harrier said:

You say Palestinians can protest Hamas after Palestine is free - so after Hamas achieves its goals?  Your nationalist delusion will not happen. Palestine will not be from river to sea, not unless israel is bombed into submission by Iran or something. Israel will not cease to exist without extreme, completely unjustifiable violence. It is an entrenched modern state with the backing of a superpower, and the UN recognition of virtually every state outside of the Islamic world. We are completely powerless to do anything about it, especially those of us who aren't American. Face that reality.

 

Is it justice? No. Should it be this way? No. I have always said that Israel should never have existed. But peace is more important than justice. The lives of Palestinian children are more important than one free state. The sacrificial, martryed, revolutionary politics of Hamas and their supporters in the online left makes pawns of innocent Palestinians in service of an impossible goal. Accepting Israel's existence and pushing for hard immediate peace is the only way forward and I will continue to fight anyone who says otherwise regardless of who you are or whatever any of you think of me. Violence will end only in genocide.

 

 

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Israel’s version of “peace” IS the genocide of the Palestinian people, so they can be rid of them forever and build theme parks and beach resorts on top of Gazan rubble and condos on the West Bank. You keep operating under the false assumption that Israel WANTS peace with Palestinians, and countless users keep having to tell you how baseless that is. What we are witnessing is Israel’s two-state solution, and as you can see it is not working as the US and other international powers refuse to allow Israel to suffer any consequences to their abhorrent apartheid and genocide towards Palestinians.

[airplane]

i have no words

[Aethereal]

Gaza ops will expand, Benjamin Netanyahu says: War 'isn't close to finished'  

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/gaza-ops-will-expand-benjamin-netanyahu-says-war-isnt-close-to-finished-101703511557803.html

[Aethereal]

  On 12/25/2023 at 2:55 PM, airplane said:

i have no words

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They really bombed them back to stone age. 

[YellowRibbon]

Israel is evil to no end

[Communion]

  On 12/25/2023 at 5:54 AM, Harrier said:

But also I won't hide or deny that I have a particular distaste for your brand of politics, and that's been there for years, ever since I did Chinese/Soviet history units at uni. I genuinely think you and others who share your views - especially the willingness to justify violence - are dangerous. I look at you and other leftists' willingness to support "revolutionary" or "resistance' violence and I see the same ideaology that justified what was done in the CR in China, to pick one example.  It is a particularly concerning brand of modern American leftism that I have always disliked and desperately do not want to influence my country.

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As a reminder, it is a form of violence to sell bombs to a nation while knowing said nation will use said bombs to indiscriminately attack another nation. 

 

This reductionist take of "durrr durrr Moslems hate Jews" - exemplified by neocons like Noah Smith - is further exposed as absurd when those who intervene in criticisms of its pushers would reject takes suggesting that the West is only involved in Middle Eastern politics due to some visceral Arab hatred. 

 

That is is possible to recognize the subjugation of Yemeni Jews following 1948, that the Houthis are Islamists, and that neither of these things make declarations like "all of Yemen's foreign policy is dictated by Jew hatred" true. That there is no need to replace what is decades of geopolitical history and years worth of modern conflict (shocking Yemen is not siding with a nation allied with the two powers that have continually been bombing it!) with such reductionism.

 

But this reductionist tactic is obviously only one-sided by you and others for clear reasons. 

 

Palestinians want to be liberated? They're obviously Jew haters. 

 

Western, largely atheist progressives support Palestinian liberation? Haters of Western democracy. 

 

Israelis wants to keep the continued economic exploitation going via their apartheid system? "It's complicated! They're refugees! Jewish self-determination!"

 

The US and other Western superpowers enable Israel to carpet bomb all of Gaza? "They're the lesser evil. We must maintain the belief that enlightenment era liberal values are worth fighting for no matter how many mistakes we as Westerners make!"

 

Merry Christmas indeed 

[Aethereal]

A ceasefire will save the lives of thousands of Palestinian children and just as many of the adults and it will return the hostages back to Israel. #ceasefirenow

 

[Communion]

Also I'm sorry, @Harrier, but this is a horrific thing to say to a Palestinian person:

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The sacrificial, martryed, revolutionary politics of Hamas and their supporters in the online left makes pawns of innocent Palestinians in service of an impossible goal. 

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This kind of rhetoric is literally what paternalism is. Hamas is nothing but Palestinians organized into a political apparatus. They exist because they represent a not-insignificant sector of the overall ideological spectrum of Palestinian thought. 

 

Of course there will be diverse political thought in every country and it's chauvinism to be shocked there is in Palestine. It's not hard to imagine elderly Palestinians who experienced the Nakba be brought to their knees and want to give up as another Nakba unfolds in front of them. It's not absurd for someone to feel overwhelmed by the idea of their life being entangled forever in violence to just be a liberated people. 

 

But similarly, polling shows us that Israeli violence unites the Palestinian people - not just Hamas - in this cause and emotional sentiment, literally to the point of why 10/07 occurred and how it did. The more Palestinians interact with Israelis, the less and less open to living side by side with them as two nations they become because Palestinians are consistently met by Israelis with violence and subjugation. 

 

I don't think it's what any young lefty Western person online says that causes these men and boys to hate the Israeli regime:

It is literally the difference in these material experiences that brings about what we see today - but in the opposite of what you claim.

 

That you and I have no understanding of the reality of Palestinians living under occupation. That our gayness brings us no closer to understanding the lives of gay Palestinian men close to our age who wake up and put on gear and weaponry and work alongside alleged Islamists like Hamas to neutralize and defeat Israeli military threats. Does that disparity not speak to you? That the most we have to fear is the rare chance of a micro-aggression or hearing a homophobic joke? That these things simply don't compare to living under an apartheid-style blockade where an enemy is trying to orchestrate famine? While its soldiers indiscriminately bomb apartment buildings and schools? And take hundreds hostage as political prisoners into prisons where rape is rampant as a tactic? 

 

This isn't to romanticize violent resistance, but to emphasize the horrors innate to it we can't actually know. And that of us who don't know such should instead dedicate ourselves on getting the countries we live in to disassociate from Israel militarily. You know what leads to less dead Palestinians? Less nations providing Israel with the very weapons and system it uses to mow down entire villages of innocent civilians.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

 

 

 

[Communion]

  On 12/25/2023 at 9:02 PM, Kassi said:

 

 

 

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A "permanent ceasefire" that does not include the end Israeli violence via mass political hostages (8k and counting) and expanding settlements is not a "permanent ceasefire", btw!  Because you're gleefully hoping people don't read what you share;

 

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Islamic Jihad, which also holds hostages in custody in Gaza, has echoed that stance.

 

An Islamic Jihad delegation led by its leader Ziad al-Nakhala is currently in Cairo to exchange ideas with Egyptian officials over prisoner swap offers and other issues, but an official said the group had set an end to Israel’s military offensive as a pre-condition for further negotiations.

 

Islamic Jihad insists, the official said, that any prisoner swap must be based on the principle of “all for all,” meaning the release of all hostages held in Gaza by Hamas and Islamic Jihad in return for freeing all Palestinians jailed in Israel.

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Hamas had laid out 3 clear pillars to what a ceasefire is. 

Why does Israel refuse to comply with these 3 basic tasks, especially when the international community at large agrees with Hamas?

 

How can peace come if Israel keeps referring to the West Bank as "Judea and Samaria" and refusing to end settlements there?

[State of Grace.]

As they should.

 

"If you want a permanent ceasefire, give up control of Gaza to Israel and let genocidal war criminals take over the land "

 

But the idiots here told me that Israel's objective wasn't taking over the land?

 

These ridiculous demands would only accelerate the rate at which Palestinians are ethnically cleansed/genocided. Of course, it's being interpreted as "SEE!!! HAMAS IS REJECTING PEACE AND A CEASEFIRE" when the same article from Reuters that I posted above literally has Netanyahu saying "Whoever thinks we will stop is detached from reality".

[Cyanide]

Project canary, very interesting read

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canary-mission-israel-covert-operations/?fbclid=PAAabLfxOFJIGw62irp_4se-3Hi_xnucVp4AM2hwOFkP1Sh5y9AYtF6eGLArI_aem_AShzrCnjswajqoW0RXg1ZM8eHOpUQXW6WRYp7_2sgozb70pBrKfMOIyzOzEsALREbIQ

 

This is INSANE. Can some of the Israel sympathizers here explain why people are being profiled and having their job aspects ruined by agencies like the MSA? If Israel is innocent and any critique or disagreement is automatically antisemitism, why is the goal to silence and harass people???

Edited December 25, 2023 by Cyanide

[Kassi]

Interesting.

 

#ceasefirenow has turned into #ceasefirewhenIsraelisdestroyed real quickly.

 

Though, I guess that's what it's always been.

[Communion]

  On 12/25/2023 at 9:40 PM, Kassi said:

#ceasefirenow has turned into #ceasefirewhenIsraelisdestroyed

Expand  

So you're openly saying you believe Israel includes the mythical lands of "Judea and Samaria"?

Edited December 25, 2023 by Communion

[Space Cowboy]

So Gaza is no more. What do you think Israel is going to do with all the people that used to live there?

 

No other arabic country wants them. And I doubt Israel will spend any money rebuilding the city, and Israel definitely won’t leave them on their own and let Hamas regain power.