hoax Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 31 minutes ago, Communion said: This is both revisionist and disingenuous. If people demand Hamas be seen as doing something undeniably monstrous, the scale of what occurred on 10/07 has to be acknowledged in all aspects, including the suffering Israel chooses to experience by perpetuating this cycle of violence. It can't be that 10/07 was so harrowing that the world can't stop Israel from its pursuit to destroy Hamas... but *also* that the threat of what 10/07 represents against Israel is somehow nothing~* and Israel is actually totally~* unfazed by Hamas and only Palestinians have something to lose. The line of "well Hamas will achieve nothing against Israel, Israel is 10000x stronger!!!" doesn't come off as being against Israel. It reads very pro-Israel. No matter how one feels, Hamas was undeniably successful on 10/07 in shattering any false sense of safety Israelis felt laying their head down at night. Any sense of security the Israeli state apparatus had in being a ~blooming oasis amongst a barren desert~ is gone. No carpet bombing will ever give Zionists that back. Israel disproportionately rains death down upon Palestine both *after* and *before* 10/07 - the change now is that it's not just Palestinians forced to accept the constant fear of violence and death as a permanent fixture. This is not to romanticize violence. In fact, it's to de-romanticize it. It's certainly true that 10/7 changed the dynamic of violence of this conflict by shattering the Israeli security illusion, but it also provided Israel with the internal (if not the international) justification required to eradicate Hamas (and by extension the Palestinians). Before 10/7, Israel was averaging a few hundred to a few thousand killed Palestinians per year. On 10/7, Hamas killed ~1200 Israelis, and in return Israel killed 1000 Hamas militants. In the two months since, Israel has killed about 18,000 with all indicators pointing to the rate of death dramatically increasing over the next few months due to famine and disease, while Hamas has managed to kill about 180 Israelis. Hamas "won" the battle on 10/7 by destroying Israel's image, but a 180/18000 kill ratio does not make it look like they'll "win" the war. The circumstances that allowed for Hamas to pull off 10/7 (a distracted and placated Israel, exploitable border defenses, years of preparation, etc.) are not replicable, and the IDF is well aware given their complete nonchalance regarding the potential radicalization of the remaining Palestinians. The plan is to kill them all before they can mount another 10/7, so why bother worrying about that while that plan is succeeding? Does it matter if the general Israeli or global population lives in fear of another 10/7 when the men in charge of preventing attacks clearly aren't living in fear? Also, I'm sorry you aren't reading what I'm saying in the way that I'm intending, but pointing out the basic facts on the ground does not make me pro-Israel. I can detest the regime and its actions and still recognize that they're on an unstoppable trajectory. 51 minutes ago, Communion said: To recognize that there is no actual easy, feel-good solution to these horrors (that often neolibs+neocons accuse leftists of wishcasting). It's why I'm not going to sit here and entertain the *insane* idea that I, a random homosexual American graphic designer, could even possibly have some meaningful solution to "propose" (!) re: an ongoing genocide. I can only accept that the Palestinian people have the right to lead their destiny. To recognize all I can do is be an observer, and maybe a vocal activist in a very limited capacity as a citizen of the nation financing the genocidal colony (only money talks in America and I already live in a district where the Democrat is one of the rare ones to support a ceasefire). To actually remove the sensationalism surrounding the shock and horror of death, by recognizing death is part of this situation no matter how much it makes me uncomfortable to 'see'. That such death and violence *has always been* part of the Palestinian reality for as long as Israel has existed. And to listen to Palestinians when they say that those who somehow only began paying attention after 10/07 - and who rush to convince the Palestinian people to accept living under Israel's boot and lay down their weapons - don't have much care for them after all. If you're not going to provide any rationalization for what I think are your equally as *insane* ideas regarding the outcome of this war and your refusal to engage with what I'm actually arguing (considering that the first half of this post I'm quoting was you arguing over semantics, that Hamas actually had responded mutually to the Israeli destruction because of the damage done to the Israeli image and sense of safety; and the second half was a cop-out as to why you can't actually respond to what I'm saying, followed by an attempt to shame me for my perspective as someone who apparently doesn't care about Palestinians) then you seriously discredit yourself. You can make the "I'm an irrelevant American who can't dream of proposing a meaningful solution" point all you like, but I'm not asking you for anything actionable. It's not as if I'm any more powerful in this situation than you are, my thoughts are just as meaningless and worthless to the bigger picture as yours are. The only difference between us here is that I'm willing to sound out what the outcome might be, and I think you continue to dodge and deflect away from what I'm asking from you because you aren't able to consider it. It might be worthless trying to get one ATRL gay to reconsider his preconceived notions and to answer for himself, but all discussions held on this website regarding politics and foreign affairs are pretty worthless anyway and you've certainly dedicated hundreds of hours to those. I'm glad you have overcome your discomfort and can recognize that there is no feel-good solution to the horrors here, but your inability to propose or support any serious solution whatsoever is what I find baffling, especially when you're more than willing to shoot down mine. I only argue what I do because I have an outsiders perspective (read: not a supporter of zionistic genocide nor ideologically driven martyrdom) and have a research background in mass casualty conflicts (mostly civil wars, but still), and know that there are points of no-return and we are quickly nearing one. When the US draws its metaphorical red line and then Israel ignores it without consequence (or the election of any Republican as President, whichever comes first), that will be the end of any hope for a peaceful conclusion with whatever Palestinian survivors there may be. Maybe I'm foolish and it is the genuine wish of every Palestinian to die at the hands of Israel in an act of martyrdom, in which case my argument of "accede before it is too late" would be misguided, but I'm not ideologically driven enough to support that now. 1
ClashAndBurn Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 Man, those Obama advisors sure know how to pick ‘em… 1
ClashAndBurn Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 16 minutes ago, nooniebao said: Neolibs shitting on the first amendment of the Constitution to own the… victims of a genocide and their advocates? Ok then… 1
Communion Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, wastedpotential said: Before 10/7, Israel was averaging a few hundred to a few thousand killed Palestinians per year. Attempted narrative like this is why I will never buy into the de-facto silencing tactic of trying to equate explaining why Hamas committed 10/07 with support for such, because posts like these will try and pretend as though reality is not self-apparent if allowed to. Your post frames things as *getting better* for Palestinians. 2018 was the worst tally for injured Palestinians in over a decade. Unnecessary Israel aggression to what were literally peaceful protests led to the kind of radicalization that spurred and birthed the plans of 10/07. Gazans used to have a majority support for a 2 state solution! Do you honestly think Hamas would have committed 10/07 - and the majority of Palestinians support such actions - if they believed things were *getting better*? 2022 literally saw the most deaths of Palestinians in the West Bank by the IDF in, again, a decade! Jewish politicians were literally leading pogroms into the West Bank in February this year! 10/07 was a *reaction* to immense violence and hopelessness that Israel caused. There is no other way to approach understanding this conflict. You keep demanding some "rationalization" and an "actually serious solution" despite continually failing to see it is neither up to you or I to deem what is or isn't a serious solution for the Palestinian people. That it be hubris and paternalism to discuss such so plainly and matter of factly like as though you're discussing chemistry. I would be concerned with an American, for example, earnestly thinking the only result is mass death and that Palestine should surrender their existence to Israeli subjugation, but who mysteriously will still be voting for Joe Biden come November 2024. Odd to demand the Palestinian people think the only logical solution is to be dominated yet refusing as an American to similarly take the uncomfortable risk of a Trump victory in order to leverage withholding your vote for concessions from Biden over his unconditional support for genocide. Seems dishonest to vehemently argue the Palestinian people have no tools at their disposal yet then refuse to use the ones at yours. I am not going to be convinced into viewing the Palestinian liberation movement as an irrational project while also being asked to ignore the collective delusion of Israeli society and its commitment to continued violence, let alone then gaslit to center the fallout from said collective delusion as the top priority of the global community. 13
nooniebao Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 Quote In this exclusive report for The Grayzone, Jeremy Loffredo provides an on-the-ground look at the fear and violence that has consumed occupied Palestinian communities across the West Bank, from the Jordan Valley to the Christian village of Taybeh, as settlers and the Israeli army exploit the shock of October 7 to carry out dispossession on a mass scale. 3
Letemtalk Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 16 hours ago, Espresso said: It was never about Hamas. Israel doesn't want any Palestinians having any form of government or self determination. 6
Kassi Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 10 hours ago, Communion said: Then it seems they'll just have to live with experiencing 10/07 over and over and over. You’re not understanding. They (Palestinians) won’t get another chance to pull this off again. 4
ClashAndBurn Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Kassi said: You’re not understanding. They (Palestinians) At least you’re finally going mask off and admitting that this is all about annihilating the Palestinians as a whole instead of some righteous crusade against solely “Khamas”! The genocide denial from you, GhostBox, and pretty much all of the Joe Biden supporters on the neolib subreddits has been mentally exhausting to put up with tbh! 4 1
GhostBox Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 5 hours ago, nooniebao said: I mean its not like it isnt happening all over the place 💀 so easy to believe these videos sometimes. 1 1
GhostBox Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: At least you’re finally going mask off and admitting that this is all about annihilating the Palestinians as a whole instead of some righteous crusade against solely “Khamas”! The genocide denial from you, GhostBox, and pretty much all of the Joe Biden supporters on the neolib subreddits has been mentally exhausting to put up with tbh! I’ve literally stated many times I do not agree with what the government of Israel is doing. But at the same time I do not agree with what terrorist organization Hamas is doing and has done either which has and is only making the situation worse. Let’s say Israel stops what they are doing tomorrow. A “ceasefire” as y’all want, You really think Hamas is going to stop and abide by it too? 💀 or vice versa. No. It’s not gonna happen. Both sides are guilty for the deaths of innocent civilians. Both sides are responsible for what is happening at this very moment. Bii oh th sides hate each other and have for decades and decades. it takes both sides doing what is right to stop the mess and as of now neither side wants to to do that. It’s not just Israel and it’s not just Hamas. Edited December 13, 2023 by GhostBox 1 4
Headlock Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 “But really guys, aren’t the victims of genocide also at fault here?” It has to be trolling, how can someone write something that insane and think their logic holds true in the slightest? 7 1
dussel_06 Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 The UN being useless as usual. The big 5 should not have veto power. Voting is basically useless if one country can just deny the result of the votes. 7 1
teresaguidice Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) could the israel supporters in this thread clarify their stance? beyond "both sides bad" or "israel has the right to exist"? genuinely asking. one state solution israel supporters: "a wild leftist fantasy that would mean the deaths of all israeli jews. impossible." two state solution israel: "no" so either you believe the israeli government will change its absolutist stance on a two state solution eventually when a more liberal regime somehow gains popular support in israel (which, to me, is fantasy but if that's the belief, shouldn't you expect the US to demand this, weaken netanyahu's standing in israel by calling out his extremism, and condition aid on steps being made to a two state deal?) or that the only solution is the permanent removal of palestinians from gaza and the west bank (either slowly through settlements and land encroachment or quickly through continued bombardment and mass expulsion). is there an alternative path i'm not understanding? and if that's your viewpoint can you just say it? is it just contrarianism? Edited December 13, 2023 by teresaguidice 9
State of Grace. Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, GhostBox said: Let’s say Israel stops what they are doing tomorrow. A “ceasefire” as y’all want, You really think Hamas is going to stop and abide by it too? 💀 You're honestly so....despicable. I wish you would just drop your both sides b*llshit and say that you're okay with the thousands of Palestinians being murdered by Israel. Only a genocidal maniac wouldn't be calling for a ceasefire right now. 2 1
ClashAndBurn Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, Headlock said: “But really guys, aren’t the victims of genocide also at fault here?” It has to be trolling, how can someone write something that insane and think their logic holds true in the slightest? It really is hilarious how every both-sides'er in this thread ALWAYS comes around to showing their true preference for Israel's genocidal campaign in the end. Dunno why they can't just be honest. 1 1
Kassi Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 On 10/11/2023 at 3:44 PM, Kassi said: At this point it’s becoming clear that the only solution is an Israeli security state with fully integrated Palestinian administrative regions. In order for it to even have a chance of working, Israel needs to be judicious in its operations against Hamas. Indiscriminate killing and mass casualty retaliations only prolongs the timeline to that solution. Like I said 3 days after Oct 7 1
GhostBox Posted December 13, 2023 Posted December 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Headlock said: “But really guys, aren’t the victims of genocide also at fault here?” It has to be trolling, how can someone write something that insane and think their logic holds true in the slightest? Yes terrorist organization Hamas is at fault too. To think otherwise you’re too blind by your Israel/jew hatred to see it 🤷 2
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