news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Aethereal]

Sanders opposed to sending $10B to ‘extremist Netanyahu government’ in Israel    

 

Quote

“I do not think we should be appropriating $10.1 billion for the right-wing, extremist Netanyahu government to continue its current military approach. What the Netanyahu government is doing is immoral, it is in violation of international law, and the United States should not be complicit in those actions,” Sanders argued on the Senate floor.

 https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4342060-sanders-netanyahu-government-israel/

[State of Grace.]

1 hour ago, Aristotle said:

Sanders opposed to sending $10B to ‘extremist Netanyahu government’ in Israel    

 

 https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4342060-sanders-netanyahu-government-israel/

extremist *insert any Israeli politician from any party here* government

 

He's such a joke.

[Aethereal]

2 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

extremist *insert any Israeli politician from any party here* government

 

He's such a joke.

I would not send another 10B dollars to them even if they were on the good side. There are like 30,000 Hamas soldiers and you're a nuclear power why do you need another 10B?

Edited December 11, 2023 by Aristotle

[Aethereal]

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-will-turn-beirut-into-gaza-if-netanyahu-stern-warning-to-hezbollah-4644410

https://www.newarab.com/news/senior-israeli-official-says-war-hezbollah-likely

 

"If Hezbollah decides to open an all-out war, then with its own hands it will turn Beirut and southern Lebanon into Gaza and Khan Yunis," Netanyahu said.

Israeli national security advisor says war with Hezbollah likely

 

[Mean Trees]

29 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-will-turn-beirut-into-gaza-if-netanyahu-stern-warning-to-hezbollah-4644410

https://www.newarab.com/news/senior-israeli-official-says-war-hezbollah-likely

 

"If Hezbollah decides to open an all-out war, then with its own hands it will turn Beirut and southern Lebanon into Gaza and Khan Yunis," Netanyahu said.

Israeli national security advisor says war with Hezbollah likely

 

Yet it was Israel who had to sue for peace in 2006.

[wastedpotential]

7 hours ago, Communion said:

The genocidal feelings of your average Israeli is important to address given that they have both the material means and systematic power to see this genocide to fruition, and thus if you also feel that extremist Palestinians must reform their religious views and this be a conditoon for peace, then the dismantling of the genocidal state apparatus of Israel and the collective re-education of the Israeli people is also a necessary condition for peace. 

I've seen this concept thrown around several times but I've never seen an answer as to how this could reasonably play out. All Israeli actions in Gaza have been met thus far with very limited pushback from the global community (unless you want to count the UNGA resolutions that aren't worth the ink they're printed with). Regional and global powers have shown a great deal of apathy when confronted with the plight of the Palestinians by protesters (the only group to actively respond to Israeli actions have been the Houthi rebels in Yemen, and they aren't capable of forcing the dismantling of Israel and the re-education of its citizens). The Palestinians themselves are not presently in a position to force such a change on Israel, and the Israeli political apparatus is obviously quite opposed to any internally-driven dismantling campaign. China won't jeopardize its trade relationships, Russia is preoccupied, and if Iran tries anything overt, Tehran will be a pile of radioactive rubble. The only external powers with a chance of forcing the Israeli's hand are the Americans or (less likely) a combination of the Saudi's, Turks, and Egyptians. If the protesters in the US are incapable of getting the US government to mandate a long-term ceasefire (and will have a harder time with humanitarian pauses now that most of the American citizens held as hostages have been released) or to slow the shipment of weapons, I seriously fail to see how they'll manage to convince the Biden Administration to force through the dismantling of the Israeli regime or the re-education of the Israeli people. And even that assumes that the protests don't lose steam over the coming months or years of this conflict. It's not as if the US election cycle can be waited out either, since the opposition is literally made up of bloodthirsty Zionist Islamophobes who believe that supporting the state of Israel will bring about the Rapture and the second coming of Christ. As for a regional coalition, it would require a regime change in Egypt back to the MB, a radical shift in Turkish-EU relations, and a guarantee for the Saudi's that the US didn't care if they went ahead and dismantled Israel (all of these are unlikely to occur individually, let alone in conjunction). Even disregarding the hypothetical pre-requisites, the leadership in all 3 countries would need a strong emotional incentive from their populations to act, and while I thought that might have started after the first hospital bombing, that's not panned out. 

 

The historical examples that come to mind for state-dismantling and re-education (Germany, Japan, Rhodesia, and South Africa) were all reliant on circumstances that don't exist here. The Americans and Brits and Soviets had beaten the Germans in the war and destroyed their economy, infrastructure, and spirit (it's hard to continue a war being fought to further your interests as the true superior race when supposed inferiors were able to defeat you so soundly). The Japanese surrender and pacification came at a nuclear gunpoint. Rhodesia wasn't exactly a top US priority at the time (and worries of driving what ended up being the Mugabe regime into the Soviet camp probably held back what little bit of the US establishment may have been in favor of an overt intervention), and the UK was mostly just mad they'd been disregarded by Ian Smith and the UDI. Apartheid South Africa had backed itself into the economic and social corner, and in the post-Soviet world the US had no domino-theory derived fears to prop it up. In the latter two cases, the minority white populations never made up more than small fraction of the population, and never had a chance at maintaining power once they lost the external circumstances keeping them propped up. Zionists in Israel make up a majority of the population Israel, and are literally outbreeding the Palestinians (while acting to kill as many children as possible, each of which reduces the potential for Palestinian ethnic survival in the future). The most radical Zionists have been preparing for the day the Americans "went home" since at least the 70s (and probably earlier). The American establishment has zero desire to put Israel in a similar state to Germany or Japan in 1945, and given the upcoming electoral actions of AIPAC, any US politician with a dissenting opinion is in the process of being shoved out in 2024 or in some future election. 

 

Ultimately, dismantling the Israeli regime and instituting a mass re-education is only one condition for a peaceful resolution. Another that comes to mind is the complete eradication of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank through mass murder campaigns (with or without an exodus to Egypt, Jordan, or countries willing to accept refugees) - which is clearly the option preferred in Jerusalem and in Washington. I guess it just depends on how someone chooses to define a peaceful resolution. A peaceful resolution to the conflict that spares as many lives as possible, establishes a stable government with meaningful input from both parties, and creates framework that prevents this from happening again is the ideal solution, but no one with the ability to bring that about is incentivized to do so.

 

In light of that, how would you propose that the genocidal state apparatus of Israel be dismantled and the population of Israel be re-educated? 

Edited December 11, 2023 by wastedpotential

[ZeroSuitBritney]

Oh wow this is such a bop and so powerful (turn on captions)

 

 

[Harriser]

4 hours ago, wastedpotential said:

I've seen this concept thrown around several times but I've never seen an answer as to how this could reasonably play out. All Israeli actions in Gaza have been met thus far with very limited pushback from the global community (unless you want to count the UNGA resolutions that aren't worth the ink they're printed with). Regional and global powers have shown a great deal of apathy when confronted with the plight of the Palestinians by protesters (the only group to actively respond to Israeli actions have been the Houthi rebels in Yemen, and they aren't capable of forcing the dismantling of Israel and the re-education of its citizens). The Palestinians themselves are not presently in a position to force such a change on Israel, and the Israeli political apparatus is obviously quite opposed to any internally-driven dismantling campaign. China won't jeopardize its trade relationships, Russia is preoccupied, and if Iran tries anything overt, Tehran will be a pile of radioactive rubble. The only external powers with a chance of forcing the Israeli's hand are the Americans or (less likely) a combination of the Saudi's, Turks, and Egyptians. If the protesters in the US are incapable of getting the US government to mandate a long-term ceasefire (and will have a harder time with humanitarian pauses now that most of the American citizens held as hostages have been released) or to slow the shipment of weapons, I seriously fail to see how they'll manage to convince the Biden Administration to force through the dismantling of the Israeli regime or the re-education of the Israeli people. And even that assumes that the protests don't lose steam over the coming months or years of this conflict. It's not as if the US election cycle can be waited out either, since the opposition is literally made up of bloodthirsty Zionist Islamophobes who believe that supporting the state of Israel will bring about the Rapture and the second coming of Christ. As for a regional coalition, it would require a regime change in Egypt back to the MB, a radical shift in Turkish-EU relations, and a guarantee for the Saudi's that the US didn't care if they went ahead and dismantled Israel (all of these are unlikely to occur individually, let alone in conjunction). Even disregarding the hypothetical pre-requisites, the leadership in all 3 countries would need a strong emotional incentive from their populations to act, and while I thought that might have started after the first hospital bombing, that's not panned out. 

 

The historical examples that come to mind for state-dismantling and re-education (Germany, Japan, Rhodesia, and South Africa) were all reliant on circumstances that don't exist here. The Americans and Brits and Soviets had beaten the Germans in the war and destroyed their economy, infrastructure, and spirit (it's hard to continue a war being fought to further your interests as the true superior race when supposed inferiors were able to defeat you so soundly). The Japanese surrender and pacification came at a nuclear gunpoint. Rhodesia wasn't exactly a top US priority at the time (and worries of driving what ended up being the Mugabe regime into the Soviet camp probably held back what little bit of the US establishment may have been in favor of an overt intervention), and the UK was mostly just mad they'd been disregarded by Ian Smith and the UDI. Apartheid South Africa had backed itself into the economic and social corner, and in the post-Soviet world the US had no domino-theory derived fears to prop it up. In the latter two cases, the minority white populations never made up more than small fraction of the population, and never had a chance at maintaining power once they lost the external circumstances keeping them propped up. Zionists in Israel make up a majority of the population Israel, and are literally outbreeding the Palestinians (while acting to kill as many children as possible, each of which reduces the potential for Palestinian ethnic survival in the future). The most radical Zionists have been preparing for the day the Americans "went home" since at least the 70s (and probably earlier). The American establishment has zero desire to put Israel in a similar state to Germany or Japan in 1945, and given the upcoming electoral actions of AIPAC, any US politician with a dissenting opinion is in the process of being shoved out in 2024 or in some future election. 

 

Ultimately, dismantling the Israeli regime and instituting a mass re-education is only one condition for a peaceful resolution. Another that comes to mind is the complete eradication of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank through mass murder campaigns (with or without an exodus to Egypt, Jordan, or countries willing to accept refugees) - which is clearly the option preferred in Jerusalem and in Washington. I guess it just depends on how someone chooses to define a peaceful resolution. A peaceful resolution to the conflict that spares as many lives as possible, establishes a stable government with meaningful input from both parties, and creates framework that prevents this from happening again is the ideal solution, but no one with the ability to bring that about is incentivized to do so.

 

In light of that, how would you propose that the genocidal state apparatus of Israel be dismantled and the population of Israel be re-educated? 

I've made this point before, but happy to see it expressed more eloquently than myself here. The reconstruction of these countries came after the most horrendous war in history, with untold destruction and mass death. It came after Hiroshima, after Dresden. South Africa meanwhile had the unique situation where 10% of the population was in control - something that is unsustainable and much more easily undermined. Israel, meanwhile, is 80% Jewish, and much more well established.

 

I don't do "defenses" of Israel because I like it - I just want to online left to face reality head on. You have a country with a strong majority population that believes in its right to exist. How do you dislodge this state without doing a Dresden in Tel Aviv? Palestine will not be from river to sea without a massive regional war. I understand and sympathise with the fact that one secular state would be the just end to this conflict: but it isn't possible without mass violence.

 

I look at what is happening, what the results of people's actions are, and what the immediate possibilites are. When you look at things through this lens, and not the lens of historic justice as members in this thread do, people might understand better why I see things like framing Oct 7th as "just resistance" as dangerous and unproductive. 

 

Most of us in here accept that Israel shouldn't exist. We accept that it is an apartheid state that oppresses Palestinians and is prepared to do wildly disproportionate violence in reponse to attack, or to keep its structures intact. We see that there is 7 million strong population base supporting that state's continued existence, and the most powerful country in the world backing it. That is the situation as it stands.

 

Putting Israeli civillians aside: if we care about Palestinian lives, we want the thousands of children who are being killed to live, what is the best path for Palestinians and people that care about them to follow? What path causes the least suffering, the greatest hope for future prosperity? I would argue that it is clearly, obviously, peace and a two state solution. It is descalation of violence, abandonment of nationalistic pride and dreams, no more from the river to the sea. It is accepting the reality of Israel and attempting to build a better life for your people in a world where it exists, free of these wars. It's not perfect, it's not what should have happened: but it's the only path that lets the majority of kids live out their lives in peace.

 

That is why I argue against the online left as I do, not because I care about the state of Israel: but because I see their stridency and as an obstacle to peace and a precursor to more violence. If we abandon Hamas, abandon from river to sea, dissavow violence, call for immediate peace and ceasefire - surely that is what the left should want? Surely the lives of children are more important than some far off "justice"?

[Sheep]

I hope that the violence can end and that we can forge a new kind of peace through the interconnected online world we live in today. 

[nooniebao]

 

[Aethereal]

There is no deadline for the war. Disappointing  but not very surprising. 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Harrier said:

I would argue that it is clearly, obviously, peace and a two state solution.

75% of Israeli Jews disagree. They prefer to either maintain the status quo of apartheid or engage in ethnic cleansing to push Palestinians out of their borders. That reality hasn't even changed much, with the delta pre-Oct. 7 being a 6-7% difference.

 

You're the one who's ignoring the reality of what the people actually on the ground in Israel want. The only one pushing for the Two State Delusion are Joe Biden and Antony Blinken for a reason. Netanyahu doesn't want it. Israelis as a whole do not want it. They want the Palestinians GONE. 

[Mr. Mendes]

I'm so fascinated how ever after a mountain evidence pointing toward it being true, there are people in this thread who're still willing to imply what is happening is anything other than a targeted genocide 

[FOCK]

12 hours ago, GhostBox said:

This could literally be said for the Palestinians and their support of Hamas murderous actions too 💀

Actually, no, it can not.

 

Palestinians don’t call for the eradication of their Jewish brethren - who apparently view them as subhuman. 
 

800 of the (still inconclusive) 1200 killed on Oct 7 were soldiers that Israel includes in their civilian count. There is footage of fighters saying “leave that person, they’re not a soldier”, accounts of people being asked if they were soldiers, & a Hamas fighter telling a family they’re not going to harm them & that they’re only after soldiers & they have also clarified their stated targets on Oct 7.
 

The remainder of the victims were, as reported by Israeli publications, either killed in crossfire or had their home shelled by 20 year old IDF tiktok girlies with no clue. The Nova party was mysteriously relocated closer to the border the day prior to the event, even with the conclusive findings that Israel were aware of a Hamas plot months earlier, ignoring several warnings & putting their citizens in harms way, even going as far as to re-station & unarm soldiers typically at that border.
 

Those kidnapped have by their own account, been treated humanely & taken care of, and immediately offered release for prisoner exchange, which Netenyahu failed to reveal on Oct 8th, refused & prolonged. 

None of the other sensationalised accounts have been proven, nor has Israel allowed independent investigations of the claims. 
 

You can continue to paint Palestinians as “barbaric”, but everyone sees the clear source of the barbarism here, if the Amalek references weren’t enough for you.  

Edited December 12, 2023 by FOCK

[DAP]

 

[Kassi]

All the long paragraphs just to say:

 

Israel, a sovereign nuclear power with a civilian military population and a GDP per capita higher than Germany, France, or Britain, is not going anywhere on account of a failed BDS movement or some regional war.
 

Unfortunately for leftists, who seem to think it’s forever 1967, Israel is no longer a fledgling cornered country on the brink of collapse.

[ZeroSuitBritney]

Airstrike in Jenin, West Bank that has killed 3 people. Care to explain pro-Zionists?

[teresaguidice]

15 minutes ago, Kassi said:

All the long paragraphs just to say:

 

Israel, a sovereign nuclear power with a civilian military population and a GDP per capita higher than Germany, France, or Britain, is not going anywhere on account of a failed BDS movement or some regional war.
 

Unfortunately for leftists, who seem to think it’s forever 1967, Israel is no longer a fledgling cornered country on the brink of collapse.

israel is not a fledgling cornered country on the brink of collapse, but a country that's secure in its standing and future would not feel obligated to spend billions every year on lobbying and advertising specifically about its right to exist to the american and european public in op-eds, on billboards, and social media ads. no other country on earth does this. if israel in its current state became toxic for western politicians to publicly support, israel's situation would become precarious. "but that would never happen" probably not, but seems quite logical for activists to do their best to push for that outcome. 

[rihannafan]

1 minute ago, teresaguidice said:

israel is not a fledgling cornered country on the brink of collapse, but a country that's secure in its standing and future would not feel obligated to spend billions every year on lobbying and advertising specifically about its right to exist to the american and european public in op-eds, on billboards, and social media ads. no other country on earth does this. if israel in its current state became toxic for western politicians to publicly support, israel's situation would become precarious. "but that would never happen" probably not, but seems quite logical for activists to do their best to push for that outcome. 

And clearly their propaganda is working on people who don't have a moral compass (in this thread)

[FOCK]

Great journalism.

 

 

 

[Vermillion]

 

[DAP]

Oh wow

[Aethereal]

13 hours ago, FOCK said:

800 of the (still inconclusive) 1200 killed on Oct 7 were soldiers that Israel includes in their civilian count. There is footage of fighters saying “leave that person, they’re not a soldier”, accounts of people being asked if they were soldiers, & a Hamas fighter telling a family they’re not going to harm them & that they’re only after soldiers & they have also clarified their stated targets on Oct 7.

That is not true they entered random houses you could see blood in the houses and women hostages covered in blood. And the number now is 1,370 not 1,200. Nearly 900 out of 1400 were civilians.

 

So yes both sides are very hateful towards each other. 

 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Espresso said:

 

This was always going to be the case, but the Two State Delusion stans are just going to ignore it and act like their fantasy is still even a remotely realistic possibility.

[Chemist]