Kassi Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 ^All of that has come well after the creation of the state of Israel as a consequence of the various existential threats posed against Jews and their state. Completely unnecessary and avoidable. 4
Harrier Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Communion said: Anyway, I can only imagine people are more interested in philosophical debates about where people originate from (whether Pangea or our mothers' wombs) because this is what is coming out about Netanyahu, the IDF, and the alleged intelligence of the Israeli state apparatus: “******* give Hamas back whoever they want and bring everyone back.” “And this is all you have to say [about the pause in exchanges]? That you want to collapse Hamas’ rule? You want to show them who has bigger balls??” “You have no intel. Look how we were bombed. It’s a fact that no one knew anything about our whereabouts.” This is why the only moral & also logical response from Israel's perspective should have been restrained military action, perhaps through targeted special operations to retrieve hostages, as well as negotiations. Yet now, it is a certainty that the IDF are responsible for some hostage deaths. Obviously Hamas have responsibility there too, but if someone takes your mum hostage and you shoot her both her and her captor... you still killed her. Not that complicated. Instead they are waging what essentially amounts to a war of conquest and most of their traditional allies outside of the United States grow more cynical about them by the day. But that's what happens when your country is run by right wing idealogues who are more interested in their genocidal geopolitical goals than protecting life. It's too late for the moral or logical path, but it's not too late for the hostages. Negotiate a ceasefire. Get the them out. It seems to obvious if you're not a lunatic. But Bibi won't.
welham Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 6 minutes ago, Harrier said: But that's what happens when your country is run by right wing idealogues who are more interested in their genocidal geopolitical goals than protecting life. It's too late for the moral or logical path, but it's not too late for the hostages. Negotiate a ceasefire. Get the them out. It seems to obvious if you're not a lunatic. But Bibi won't. I'm sorry, but this is such a tired talking point. The vast majority of Jewish Israelis, the only group with actual power in the land, have consistently shown support the IDF's actions in the way, with a good chunk believing more "should be done". This sentiment transcends the left-center-right paradigm of politics, and even the minority anti-war Jews face life-threatening rhetoric over their position. Center and center-left (and even some supposed leftists) are at the forefront of the attack on Gaza just as much as the right-wing. Saying "Bibi bad, current government bad! No Bibi = no warcrimes" is naive at best and disingenuous gaslighting at worst. 3 1
Harrier Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, welham said: I'm sorry, but this is such a tired talking point. The vast majority of Jewish Israelis, the only group with actual power in the land, have consistently shown support the IDF's actions in the way, with a good chunk believing more "should be done". This sentiment transcends the left-center-right paradigm of politics, and even the minority anti-war Jews face life-threatening rhetoric over their position. Center and center-left (and even some supposed leftists) are at the forefront of the attack on Gaza just as much as the right-wing. Saying "Bibi bad, current government bad! No Bibi = no warcrimes" is naive at best and disingenuous gaslighting at worst. You're so right I forgot that most Jewish Israeli civillians are bad, sorry sis! Your argument is the exact same one used to justify the IDF's crimes against Palestinians in Gaza and is dangerous territory. This is part of why your side is constantly accused of antisemitism. Hold the right wing government of Israel and the IDF accountable, by all means. And any potential future left wing government too. But these narratives about how everyone in Israel is a supervillain... yeah it's a no from me. Public opinion during periods of conflict is messy, and also changeable. Let's be careful using it for justifying our geopolitical goals, whatever they may be.
welham Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 15 minutes ago, Harrier said: You're so right I forgot that most Jewish Israeli civillians are bad, sorry sis! Your argument is the exact same one used to justify the IDF's crimes against Palestinians in Gaza and is dangerous territory. This is part of why your side is constantly accused of antisemitism. If you don't see the difference, then you're just hopeless 3
Delirious Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 I'm sorry but didn't both literally try to do a ceasefire last week until the Hamas not only decided to not release every hostage but broke it by launching tonnes of rockets & terrorist attacks? 6
Harrier Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 44 minutes ago, welham said: If you don't see the difference, then you're just hopeless The difference being that you decided it's different Civillians having bad opinions at a particular time does not justify downplaying their civllian status and/or then doing displacement or murder, we have international law for a reason 1 6
A.R.L Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) On 12/5/2023 at 3:54 AM, ClashAndBurn said: Gaza is literally described as an open air prison by Israeli Holocaust experts. Liberals ALWAYS have to deflect to whataboutism about China in order to justify what Israel gets away with in Gaza AND the West Bank. Actually obscene and abhorrent. Of course, I would bring whataboutism when I don't see a single Chinese product being boycotted and the fact that the media in the islamic world only report once every 100000 times about the horrible and inhuman situation that is happening against Muslims in China. Of course I would bring whataboutism because I see a lot of hypocrisy. You have to admit that the anger of Muslim communities over this conflict is mainly based on religious views against Judaism rather than on humanitarian issues that’s happening to poor Palestinians. Putin has killed thousands of Syrian children and is now seen a good leader in the Islamic community. China has killed thousands of Muslims and is still seen a beloved country. Saudi Arabia has killed thousands of Yemeni children and no one has moved. There have been many civil wars in Sudan, Libya, where thousands of children died. Nobody cared. On the other hand, I agree that Gaza is an open-air prison, but still the situation was still better than it is at the moment, I would blame Israel for the war crimes committed against poor civilians when the target is only hamas. I don't care where they hide, it's still a war crime when you punish an entire nation for some people. Whoever has made that decision must be punished by international law. But on the one hand, the policy of hamas against the existence of a state like Israel was never to help the Palestinians. Not to mention the tensions between Hamas, which rules Gaza, and the Palestinian National Authority/Fatah movement, which rules the West Bank, over customs tax revenues, Gaza financing, and political power that causes daily struggles for the Palestinians, meanwhile, the billionaire leaders of Hamas who live a luxury life in Qatar flying on private jets, and use Qatar's money to destabilize the state of Israel, which will not help the Palestinians resolve the situation. Therefore, that’s why the Israeli government is also putting many restrictions on the inhabitants of Gaza and other Palestinians in the West Bank, but it was never as serious as the war we are seeing at the moment. Another thing is that the Islamic mentality among Muslims about this conflict is not helping either. A lot of anti-Semitism and the idea of not recognizing the state of Israel, the claims that the Israelis don’t have their rights over those lands and that they are European colonizers, etc... are not helping the situation at all. Israelis, like Palestinians, have strong ties to those lands. The only exception is that Israelis have established their sacred places before even Islam existed. Jerusalem is the most sacred place for Israel. It's like Mecca for Muslims. Therefore, for Muslims, Jerusalem is not the most sacred place, it only occupies the third place after Mecca and the medina, I mean. For f’s sake, let the Jews have at least one sacred place. Israelis aren’t only white Europeans, they are also Arab Jews from countries such as Morocco, Yemen and Iraq, where they were forced to accept Islamic rules or fight to leave their own country in a Muslim-majority country. Israelis don’t want to live their lives as second class citizens or as dhimmis like Christians in Muslim-majority countries, they want their own state and have all the rights to do so. So, as long as I condemn Israel for their war crimes. I also condemn other nations for not recognizing Israel simply based on an Islamic point of view that is based on the control of that entire region. Some of those nations tried to fight Israel twice for the same reason (religious perspective) and lost terribly, so it's time to make love and peace. The only solutions for long term peace are: 1- recognize the state of Israel 2- give the Jews Jerusalem since they were there first, but with guaranteed rights for the freedoms of religion for Christians and Muslims. 3- Get rid of the right-wing party in Israel 4- Get rid of corruption among Palestinian leaders, that would be quite difficult, since it’s s common in that entire region, not only in Palestine. Before some of you jump to tell me about the corruption of Israeli leaders, yes, that's true and they must be accountable for it, but let's be honest, Israel is more developed and people have access to better rights, including Muslim migrants. Without these things, unfortunately this terrible situation would remain the same for both sides. Edited December 6, 2023 by A.R.L 4 10
FOCK Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 6 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: every single one of these chucklefucks should be primaried Here are the 95 Democrats who voted for the “Anti-Zionism is antisemitism” resolution: Alma Adams Colin Allred Gabe Amo Jake Auchincloss Ami Bera Sanford D. Bishop Jr. Lisa Blunt Rochester Julia Brownley Nikki Budzinski Yadira Caraveo Salud Carbajal Matt Cartwright Kathy Castor Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick Steve Cohen Jim Costa Joe Courtney Angie Craig Jason Crow Henry Cuellar Don Davis Rosa DeLauro Chris Deluzio Anna Eshoo Lizzie Fletcher Lois Frankel Maxwell Frost Ruben Gallego Jared Golden Vicente Gonzalez Josh Gottheimer Josh Harder Jahana Hayes Brian Higgins Jim Himes Steven Horsford Steny Hoyer Jared Huffman Jeff Jackson William Keating Derek Kilmer Ann Kuster Greg Landsman John Larson Susie Lee Mike Levin Stephen Lynch Kathy Manning Doris Matsui Kweisi Mfume Joe Morelle Jared Moskowitz Seth Moulton Frank J. Mrvan Richard Neal Joe Neguse Wiley Nickel Donald Norcross Frank Pallone Jr. Jimmy Panetta Chris Pappas Bill Pascrell Jr. Mary Peltola Marie Gluesenkamp Pérez Scott Peters Brittany Pettersen Mike Quigley C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger Adam Schiff Brad Schneider Hillary Scholten Kim Schrier David Scott Terri Sewell Brad Sherman Elissa Slotkin Adam Smith Eric Sorensen Darren Soto Abigail Spanberger Melanie Stansbury Greg Stanton Haley Stevens Eric Swalwell Emilia Sykes Shri Thanedar Mike Thompson Dina Titus Norma Torres Ritchie Torres David Trone Juan Vargas Marc Veasey Debbie Wasserman Schultz Frederica Wilson 1
Communion Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Delirious said: I'm sorry but didn't both literally try to do a ceasefire last week until the Hamas not only decided to not release every hostage but broke it by launching tonnes of rockets & terrorist attacks? Literally no. Every post you attempt to make steps farther away from both logic and accuracy. There was never a ceasefire, there was a "humanitarian pause" of a set 4 days to oversee civilian women and children exchanged. (Source - CNBC) During every day of this pause, the IDF attacked different parts of both Gaza and the West Bank. (Source - Reuters) The pause came to its last day (11/27) and was literally extended *twice* for an additional 3 days for more exchanges. (Source - NBC) Violence on neither side influenced the pause to end. Hamas offered for it to be extended a third time to handle the remaining adult civilian male hostages. There was disagreement on 12/1 between Hamas and Israel over female soldiers. Israel says all women must be released first. Hamas says they'll release civilian men instead and that no soldiers will be released until a permanent ceasefire is brokered. (Source - Reuters) Edited December 6, 2023 by Communion 3 5
State of Grace. Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) This argument that only the "current government" or "right-wing parties and their supporters" in Israel are oppressing and killing Palestinians is so ******* exhausting and in complete bad faith. This is quite literally an Israeli "liberal" justifying killing children, just a few weeks before Oct 7th, and it's a very common belief among them: Here's another centrist liberal doing the exact same thing: And another one: Israeli "liberals" might oppose Bibi for various other reasons, but they're still pro-military occupation, pro-settler colonialism, pro-ethnic cleansing, and pro-genocide of Palestinians. Almost all of the parties are in agreement when it comes to this. It is not exclusive to Bibi's government or the "right-wing". Their difference is whether Israel is a fascist, racist settler colony in democracy's clothing OR simply a naked one. Liberal Zionists are still...Zionists at the end of the day and Zionists are all genocidal freaks. The one non-Arab political party in Israel that opposes occupation and genocide is Meretz, and they couldn't even garner enough votes to get a seat in the Knesset. So you are just being dense & delulu if you think a liberal government wouldn't have been murdering Gazans too. Edited December 6, 2023 by State of Grace. 7
ClashAndBurn Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 41 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: Israeli "liberals" might oppose Bibi for various other reasons, but they're still pro-military occupation, pro-settler colonialism, pro-ethnic cleansing, and pro-genocide of Palestinians. Almost all of the parties are in agreement when it comes to this. It is not exclusive to Bibi's government or the "right-wing". Their difference is whether Israel is a fascist, racist settler colony in democracy's clothing OR simply a naked one. Liberal Zionists are still...Zionists at the end of the day and Zionists are all genocidal freaks. The same could be said about American liberals. They've been fine with helping facilitate Israel's apartheid state and indefinite occupation, but their biggest issue with Israel is that Netanyahu offended Barack Obama by accepting an invitation by Republicans to speak against Obama's nuclear deal with Iran on the floor of the US House of Representatives. 2
welham Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 7 hours ago, Harrier said: Civillians having bad opinions at a particular time does not justify downplaying their civllian status and/or then doing displacement or murder, we have international law for a reason Except nowhere did I suggest that? What are you even trying to argue here. My point is that even if the right-wing government fell at this very moment or right after 7/10, the IDF's response would be the same. The atrocities and war crimes would be the same. Not a single major Israeli politician is opposing the IDF's strategy, they simply bicker over who gets to be on top of the chain command while the war is happening. Poll after poll shows the vast majority of Jewish Israelis either supporting/approving of the IDF's actions and strategy or thinking they're not doing enough. The war crimes and genocide would've all happened regardless of who was at the top of the Israeli government, that was my point. The left-center-right thinking of politics simply doesn't work when it comes to Israeli politics. And lmao @ "international law". If what's going on in Gaza right now has shown anything, it's that international and humanitarian is all bullshit. 1
Kassi Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 The stark irony in anti-Zionists decrying genocide while simultaneously advocating for the complete dismantlement and de-Judaization of the world's sole Jewish state is profoundly striking and deeply unsettling. This stance seems to overlook a harrowing historical narrative: wherever Jews have been a minority, their history has been marred by relentless persecution - massacres, expulsions, subjugation, and systemic discrimination. This dark legacy spans over two millennia, casting a long shadow over Jewish existence. The establishment of Israel was a historical necessity, born out of the blood and tears of the Jewish diaspora. The relentless atrocities endured by Jews across centuries galvanized the international community to recognize the urgent need for a secure, permanent homeland for them. This was not just a response to the Holocaust but a culmination of a long history of suffering and displacement. The establishment of which also envisioned, in parallel, the establishment of a Palestinian state — a state that, historically, had not existed before. To dismiss or undermine the legitimacy of Israel is to ignore the weight of history and the rights of both peoples to self-determination, especially those who have known nothing but persecution when stateless. Interestingly, many Western anti-Zionists envision a secular, socialist single state with an Arab majority as a solution. A concept that does not align with the popular sentiments of either Israelis or Palestinians. Such proposals continue to disregard the complex realities on the ground and the deeply ingrained national identities and aspirations of both peoples. 1 8
Kassi Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 6 hours ago, A.R.L said: Israelis aren’t only white Europeans, they are also Arab Jews from countries such as Morocco, Yemen and Iraq, where they were forced to accept Islamic rules or fight to leave their own country in a Muslim-majority country. Israelis don’t want to live their lives as second class citizens or as dhimmis like Christians in Muslim-majority countries, they want their own state and have all the rights to do so. So, as long as I condemn Israel for their war crimes. I also condemn other nations for not recognizing Israel simply based on an Islamic point of view that is based on the control of that entire region. Some of those nations tried to fight Israel twice for the same reason (religious perspective) and lost terribly, so it's time to make love and peace. The only solutions for long term peace are: 1- recognize the state of Israel 2- give the Jews Jerusalem since they were there first, but with guaranteed rights for the freedoms of religion for Christians and Muslims. 3- Get rid of the right-wing party in Israel 4- Get rid of corruption among Palestinian leaders, that would be quite difficult, since it’s s common in that entire region, not only in Palestine. Before some of you jump to tell me about the corruption of Israeli leaders, yes, that's true and they must be accountable for it, but let's be honest, Israel is more developed and people have access to better rights, including Muslim migrants. Without these things, unfortunately this terrible situation would remain the same for both sides. This is the way. 3 5
ClashAndBurn Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) What’s profoundly striking and deeply unsettling is that there are American liberals who are content with supporting an ethnostate engaged in decades of occupation and apartheid driving an entire population into endless trauma and despair. Incredibly naive to think that the West displaced millions of Arabs to set aside land for a Jewish state out of the inherent goodness of their hearts and a desire to atone for their centuries of persecution. Israel exists solely to grant the Western hegemonic power a military base in the Middle East disguised as a country. The subjugation of the Palestinian people through the Nakba and 75 years of torture since has been considered an acceptable outcome. Edited December 6, 2023 by ClashAndBurn 2
Kassi Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said: What’s profoundly striking and deeply unsettling is that there are American liberals who are content with supporting an ethnostate engaged in decades of occupation and apartheid driving an entire population into endless trauma and despair. Incredibly naive to think that the West displaced millions of Arabs to set aside land for a Jewish state out of the inherent goodness of their hearts and a desire to atone for their centuries of persecution. Israel exists solely to grant the Western hegemonic power a military base in the Middle East disguised as a country. The subjugation of the Palestinian people through the Nakba and 75 years of torture since has been considered an acceptable outcome. Israel is fundamentally a democratic nation-state with a distinctly Jewish character, as enshrined in its constitutional framework and reflected in its founding institutions. Its Declaration of Independence and Basic Laws, which collectively serve a constitutional role, explicitly lay out the country's dual identity: uphold democratic principles, including equal rights for all citizens (many of them Arabs) while establishing and preserving Israel's unique Jewish nature (reflected in national symbols, holidays, and language) Suggestions to de-Judaize () Israel eerily echoes the dark chapters of Jewish history marked by genocides and pogroms. -- In "Der Judenstaat" (The Jewish State), Hertzl, the father of political Zionism, outlined his vision for a Jewish state. His writings and advocacy were rooted in the idea of creating a safe haven for Jews, emphasizing self-determination and security rather than conquest or forced displacement. Israel was partially chosen because it had a sizable and relatively tolerated Jewish population. It was assumed it would be peaceful. Jewish immigration to Ottoman/Mandate Palestine was about 75 years in by the time the Holocaust happened. The violence was a direct result of Israel’s neighbors being unwilling to accept an independent state for the Jews they had just spent a century expelling (via Islamic colonialism). Constantine Zurayq, who coined the term "Nakba" to describe the Palestinian catastrophe in his 1948 book "Ma'na al-Nakba" (The Meaning of the Disaster), identified the Arab defeat in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War as a fundamental cause of Palestinian displacement. 8
Communion Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Kassi said: Israel is fundamentally a democratic nation-state with a distinctly Jewish character, as enshrined in its constitutional framework and reflected in its founding institutions. Its Declaration of Independence and Basic Laws, which collectively serve a constitutional role, explicitly lay out the country's dual identity: uphold democratic principles, including equal rights for all citizens (many of them Arabs) while establishing and preserving Israel's unique Jewish nature (reflected in national symbols, holidays, and language) Suggestions to de-Judaize () Israel eerily echoes the dark chapters of Jewish history marked by genocides and pogroms. -- In "Der Judenstaat" (The Jewish State), Hertzl, the father of political Zionism, outlined his vision for a Jewish state. His writings and advocacy were rooted in the idea of creating a safe haven for Jews, emphasizing self-determination and security rather than conquest or forced displacement. Israel was partially chosen because it had a sizable and relatively tolerated Jewish population. It was assumed it would be peaceful. Jewish immigration to Ottoman/Mandate Palestine was about 75 years in by the time the Holocaust happened. The violence was a direct result of Israel’s neighbors being unwilling to accept an independent state for the Jews they had just spent a century expelling (via Islamic colonialism). Constantine Zurayq, who coined the term "Nakba" to describe the Palestinian catastrophe in his 1948 book "Ma'na al-Nakba" (The Meaning of the Disaster), identified the Arab defeat in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War as a fundamental cause of Palestinian displacement. I thought you were an Evangelical but now it's clear you just work for USAID. Literally nothing you've written here is accurate. Even something as a quick understanding of the Uganda Scheme shows your ideas of how the Zionist movement has gone are not rooted in reality. Let alone the red flag of seeing a Christian American use a term like "de-Judaization" that in itself is hardly used by Jewish people, let alone in the context of Israek. Edited December 6, 2023 by Communion 3
Kassi Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 42 minutes ago, Communion said: I thought you were an Evangelical but now it's clear you just work for USAID. Literally nothing you've written here is accurate. Even something as a quick understanding of the Uganda Scheme shows your ideas of how the Zionist movement has gone are not rooted in reality. Everything I wrote is accurate and I cited my sources. The fact of the Uganda Proposal actually builds on my case in three key ways: The very existence of the Uganda Proposal was an acknowledgment by a major world power, the British Empire, of the severe persecution Jews in Europe faced at the time. They just didn't want them in their country (see: Aliens Act 1905). The mere consideration of the Uganda Proposal by the Zionist leadership demonstrated the desperation for an immediate safe haven for Jewish people. The proposal preceding the Holocaust by forty (40) years serves as an early indicator of the impending crisis for European Jewry and the critical need for a Jewish homeland as a final refuge and a place of self-determination. As in, Zionists were right. 4
Aethereal Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Kassi said: The violence was a direct result of Israel’s neighbors being unwilling to accept an independent state for the Jews they had just spent a century expelling (via Islamic colonialism). Constantine Zurayq, who coined the term "Nakba" to describe the Palestinian catastrophe in his 1948 book "Ma'na al-Nakba" (The Meaning of the Disaster), identified the Arab defeat in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War as a fundamental cause of Palestinian displacement. Do you have evidence that Jews would not ethnic cleanse Palestinians in 1949 had the war not taken place? If I recall Zionist wanted a homogenous Jewish state in Israel but they tolerate the 20% Arab minority that remain today.
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