news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[RihRihGirrrl]

Just saw my best friend's husband spewing IDF propaganda on my IG feed....smh

[FOCK]

[GhostBox]

I do not like this user or support the full text. This is posted for the video only. And good lord these Hamas leaders are just 💀

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by GhostBox

[GhostBox]

6 hours ago, Communion said:

Not my opinion that I don't need to condemn Hamas when making the point that Israeli hostages were being treated better than Palestinian hostages - and that demands for such condemnations 50+ days in is bad faith trolling - being the opinion too of *checks notes* the literal Thai government official representing the Thai hostages taken by Hamas.

 

And to think ghouls like @GhostBox made awful, disgusting implications, called for me to be permabanned, and likely tried sending my info to the CIA. 

Honey you ain’t that important 😂

 

 

 

 

[State of Grace.]

Israelis value life.

 

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[FOCK]

 

Palestinians are openly calling for international and regulatory investigations, Israel is burying evidence, slaughtering reporters & refusing any investigations. It doesn’t take a genius. 

[ClashAndBurn]

 

 

Looks like they aren't just trial-ballooning the "push Gazans into Egypt" plan anymore

[FOCK]

Trigger happy psychopaths aka the IDF, continue to display their ineptitude & cowardice. Children, civillians & even their own people. They either wet themselves or cream themselves. Nothing but a house of cards that will fall. Stick to TikTok.

Edited December 2, 2023 by FOCK

[DAP]

[DAP]

I believe this was an admission examined a few years ago in a documentary? Gaza Fights for Freedom by Abby Martin.

[nooniebao]

 

[Harrier]

17 hours ago, Communion said:

Not my opinion that I don't need to condemn Hamas when making the point that Israeli hostages were being treated better than Palestinian hostages - and that demands for such condemnations 50+ days in is bad faith trolling - being the opinion too of *checks notes* the literal Thai government official representing the Thai hostages taken by Hamas.

 

And to think ghouls like @GhostBox made awful, disgusting implications, called for me to be permabanned, and likely tried sending my info to the CIA. 

They did not negotiate the release of Thai nationals from Hamas custody by being needlessly antagonistic towards them. Thai Muslim negotiators were an effective choice for that reason. Additionally it's clear from the wording of his responses that he has personal sympathies for Hamas - I'm sure you can see that. I mean 'it's war people die' as a response to a question about 39 Thai nationals being killed on Oct 7th is a pretty pathetic response, and is equivalent to the extremely weak defenses given to the IDF murder of Palestinians. Nevermind the widly charitable interpretation of Hamas' motives to taking captives 

 

Also, the fact that they did not brutalise the Thai hostages they took does not get them any credit, it is quite literally the bare minimum

 

I just will never understand how campists like yourself can justify defending and doing apologia for this obviously right-wing, obviously religious extremist, obviously corrupt group of angry men that just want to do revenge and brutality and who have no actual concern for Palestinian lives. What is Hamas' end game here? What are they achieving right now? It is truly astonishing to me. I don't spend any time defending the IDF or Hezbollah or anyone else - it's so easy not to. I just don't get it.

[State of Grace.]

2 hours ago, Harrier said:

I just don't get it.

Exactly. You simply don't get what resistance is. And you very clearly don't get the difference between acknowledging resistance movements and their right to resist their occupier and oppressor VS agreeing with all of their ways. This has been clear since day one.

[Cloröx]

 

[Mean Trees]

5 hours ago, Harrier said:

They did not negotiate the release of Thai nationals from Hamas custody by being needlessly antagonistic towards them. Thai Muslim negotiators were an effective choice for that reason. Additionally it's clear from the wording of his responses that he has personal sympathies for Hamas - I'm sure you can see that. I mean 'it's war people die' as a response to a question about 39 Thai nationals being killed on Oct 7th is a pretty pathetic response, and is equivalent to the extremely weak defenses given to the IDF murder of Palestinians. Nevermind the widly charitable interpretation of Hamas' motives to taking captives 

 

Also, the fact that they did not brutalise the Thai hostages they took does not get them any credit, it is quite literally the bare minimum

 

I just will never understand how campists like yourself can justify defending and doing apologia for this obviously right-wing, obviously religious extremist, obviously corrupt group of angry men that just want to do revenge and brutality and who have no actual concern for Palestinian lives. What is Hamas' end game here? What are they achieving right now? It is truly astonishing to me. I don't spend any time defending the IDF or Hezbollah or anyone else - it's so easy not to. I just don't get it.

Campists? Hmmm interesting term to use. Trotskyists never have seen an war waged by the West that they never liked. The Trotskyist to Neocon pipeline is REAL.

 

And I am sure that Communion was pro-Ukraine so you're wrong about that.

[Communion]

6 hours ago, Harrier said:

I just will never understand how campists like yourself 

I don't think that word means what you seem to think it means, and would advise against using words just because you see them becone popular ad hominems on liberal globe emoji twitter!

 

I don't even think third campism - the actual term - is relevant to modern politics. Are you accusing me of being a member of the Ba'ath party of Iraq? 

 

I think it's interesting that liberals find themselves unable to accept genuine socialist views that they then accuse socialism of being something else, like anti-Americanism, and make horrific assumptions like as though I support Russia. If your theory was correct, you'd find me supporting Russia. But we know that's not the case. And that it's more so that since I criticize Russia not for being "an enemy" of America (Obama & Putin did seem close!) but for being a capitalist, oligarch-ran police state very much like America, my criticisms are apparently the "wrong" criticisms. 

 

It's just weird to find myself about to articulate your own ideology for you and give detailed examples about how you are clearly indoctrinated into a Western supremacist view and much of the contradictions present in your views of allegedly wanting "liberal values like peace" come from holding the view the West is inherently more human and less savage than anywhere else and thus no crime can actually be truly irredeemable when the West must always be the world's police and thus justified to some degree.  Meanwhile you use...slogans that I don't think you yourself know how to explain.

 

Did you have to stop using tankie as a slur because you couldn't provide an answer when asked what country is rolling their tanks into Gaza?

Edited December 2, 2023 by Communion

[heckinglovato]

ICYMI

 

 

[Communion]

Also things like this are so funny:

7 hours ago, Harrier said:

 What is Hamas' end game here? 

Because your brain is so rotted with War on Terror liberal racism, your own shortcomings see you accuse those who simply acknowledge basic facts about the current situation as like...somehow endorsing the methods chosen. 

 

Hamas: *state that they want the release of all hostage Palestinians, a permanent ceasefire, and the end to settler violence in the West Bank, and will use the threat of violence to scare the Israeli people into pressuring their government to comply*

 

Western Leftists: I don't agree with the reality of violence, but those goals are ones that are objectively needed for any chance of peace, and it's on the shoulders of Israel to comply. 

 

You: I CANT BELIEVE YOU TERRORIST LOVING TANKIES ARE SUPPORTING THESE MUD SAVAGES AND GOAT FUCKERS IN THEIR DESIRED CAMPAIGN OF AIMLESS KILLING. THEY LITERALLY HAVE NO GOALS OTHER THAN TO SPREAD SHARIA LAW AND SIP ON JEW BLOOD!!!!!

Edited December 2, 2023 by Communion

[State of Grace.]

Legit felt my heart sinking as I read this

 

 

[wastedpotential]

12 hours ago, Harrier said:

 I just will never understand how campists like yourself can justify defending and doing apologia for this obviously right-wing, obviously religious extremist, obviously corrupt group of angry men that just want to do revenge and brutality and who have no actual concern for Palestinian lives. What is Hamas' end game here? What are they achieving right now?

Disregarding the semantic arguments, this is something I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about. Ultimately, there are only four possible outcomes: the status quo ante bellum, one state run by the Israelis, one state run by the Palestinians, or two independent states. The sqab outcome is obviously not possible, as the Israelis no longer trust the Palestinians in Gaza, and the Palestinians know that Gaza is merely a prison used by the Israelis to keep them contained for the next time they decide to start slaughtering them. The same logic holds for a two-state solution, as Israel no longer trusts the Palestinians in Gaza and seemingly has zero interest in offering any piece of its sovereignty over the WB or Gaza as a negotiating chip (that died with the Trump plan). Any attempted imposition of a single state governed by the Palestinians (even a state governed in peace with full rights to both sides) will be seen as an existential threat by the Israeli government and will be responded to with whatever force is required. A single state governed by the Israelis is obviously just as much of an existential threat to the Palestinians as the opposite is for the Israelis, but the Palestinians don't have nearly the same degree of leverage to stop that from happening. I believe that a de-militarized state under a hybrid Israeli-Palestinian administration that extends full freedoms to all citizens and pays reparations to the Palestinians is the best outcome, but I'm willing to accept that it is not possible because the Israeli government would see it as a doomsday threat, even disregarding the extreme ideological hurdles that need to be overcome. 

 

Hamas' actions so far have not moved the needle toward any outcome that would actually be desirable for the Palestinian people. They've managed to kill 1400* Israelis, take 250 hostages, kick over the metaphorical hornet's nest, and show Israel that their "worst nightmare" wasn't actually as bad as they imagined. I've seen it argued that this is an incremental step in Palestinian liberation, but considering that the Israelis are more than happy to meet them with a 1,000:1 kill ratio, I fail to see how the next step at this rate can be made before the death of the last Gazan. I sympathize deeply with the goals of Palestinian liberation, but it's a form of willful ignorance to pretend that October 7th didn't significantly expedite and increase the slaughter of Palestinians and that the previous paths of slow negotiation (that are now a nonstarter) were probably the Palestinian's best shot this decade at achieving any meaningful progress in the peace process. As a group with the express goal of the liberation of the Palestinians and the destruction of Israel, Hamas has shown itself to be highly ineffective. Before October 7th there had been progress toward worker visas and food supplies, and it seemed that any Saudi-Israeli deal would include provisions for the Palestinians. Both were small steps in the right direction, but they both seem miles away from a possibility now because of Hamas' actions. Hamas used its equivalent to the 'nuclear option' on October 7th, and all it did was destroy its negotiating position and give Israel the green light from the US to do as they saw fit, which is an annihilation Hamas is incapable of stopping. 

 

Now, all that is rather meaningless at this point given how events have played out. The Israeli goal in the post-October 7th world is (at least) the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt and the execution of those who stay, hence the only acceptable outcome to the Israelis is one where they exclusively govern Gaza. As the party in the stronger military and negotiation position, Israel will have far greater sway over the outcome up until the day that Hamas makes a tank drive to the front steps of the Knesset or flies thousands of aerial missions over Israel, destroying Tel Aviv (the only actions that would put Hamas at an equal bargaining position to Israel). Those are clearly outside of Hamas' capabilities, and the strongest card in Hamas' arsenal (basically what happened on October 7th) directly led to an Israeli response of extermination. Hamas has no other card left to play, and all they've managed to accomplish is a guarantee of their own genocide. They can continue to launch rockets into Israel, they can try for more hostages, they can try to breach the border and attack IDF bases or civilians again, they can even attack the Knesset or Netanyahu, but all that will achieve will be the further aggravation of a government already dead set on genocide with the means to accomplish it.

 

I know there are arguments of 'Well if their demise is inevitable, then wasn't October 7th justified, and aren't all their actions justified anyway?' and 'Do they not have the right to fight against their oppressors?', and the answer to those questions in a vacuum is yes. In the ideal world, the Palestinians would have the ability to successfully and fairly fight for their freedom. In the real world where every Israeli death is met by 1,000 Palestinian deaths, every attempt Hamas has made at resistance has directly led to thousands of Palestinian deaths in retaliation. At what point is it no longer worth pursuing? I can understand the emotional appeal of a fighter dying for their cause, but is making a society-wide kamikaze play worth the moral high ground (especially when the civilians paying the price had little say in the matter)? Israel's actions are not justified, but Israel has not shown any signs of stopping, so is any argument about what should be happening even worth making? Hamas' actions (in conjunction with the Israeli response, but the Israeli response would not be what it is without October 7th) have set in motion a catastrophic future for Gaza, and I think the users celebrating this as "liberation" are missing the forest for the trees. If no Palestinians survive to feel justified in their "liberating" attacks against Israel, does it matter how justified they might have been? 

Edited December 2, 2023 by wastedpotential

[ClashAndBurn]

46 minutes ago, wastedpotential said:

the previous paths of slow negotiation (that are now a nonstarter) were probably the Palestinian's best shot this decade at achieving any meaningful progress in the peace process.

The "previous paths" included the Abraham Accords, which completely sidestepped the Palestinians altogether and were about to leave them with zero relevance and legitimacy anyway. Hamas genuinely had nothing to lose, and the eventual forced expulsion from Gaza and the West Bank was already only a matter of time once Israel's relations with the Saudis and UAE were officially normalized.

[State of Grace.]

My god. Seeing all of these journalists and people I follow in Gaza posting their last messages to the world is so ******* soul crushing. We have failed them greatly 😞

 

 

[nooniebao]

@Communion

 

 

[Harrier]

11 hours ago, Communion said:

I don't think that word means what you seem to think it means, and would advise against using words just because you see them becone popular ad hominems on liberal globe emoji twitter!

 

I don't even think third campism - the actual term - is relevant to modern politics. Are you accusing me of being a member of the Ba'ath party of Iraq? 

 

I think it's interesting that liberals find themselves unable to accept genuine socialist views that they then accuse socialism of being something else, like anti-Americanism, and make horrific assumptions like as though I support Russia. If your theory was correct, you'd find me supporting Russia. But we know that's not the case. And that it's more so that since I criticize Russia not for being "an enemy" of America (Obama & Putin did seem close!) but for being a capitalist, oligarch-ran police state very much like America, my criticisms are apparently the "wrong" criticisms. 

 

It's just weird to find myself about to articulate your own ideology for you and give detailed examples about how you are clearly indoctrinated into a Western supremacist view and much of the contradictions present in your views of allegedly wanting "liberal values like peace" come from holding the view the West is inherently more human and less savage than anywhere else and thus no crime can actually be truly irredeemable when the West must always be the world's police and thus justified to some degree.  Meanwhile you use...slogans that I don't think you yourself know how to explain.

 

Did you have to stop using tankie as a slur because you couldn't provide an answer when asked what country is rolling their tanks into Gaza?

Oh I'm very happy to call you a tankie - because that's what you are - I'm just having a bit of fun using a trendy term in its modern usage, which is to refer to someone who supports any organisation/group that opposes the United States or the West. It's handy here because it perfectly describes you and your deranged, morally simplistic ideaology. I have never seen you once offer any straightforward criticism of anything non-Western, because it is so anathema to you, to sometimes ridiculous extents as with the China situation. You've become a known meme on this website because of it.

 

You are so confident in your beliefs, so smug and arrogant and condescending, so stubborn to taking on board opposing perspectives or new information. You attempt to characterise me as some vicious racist, going on some ridiculous rant about mud bloods or something - by no means your first time getting vicious and personal on no provocation - rather than engaging with what I said about the Thai negotiator. But that's always what you do: highlight some small part of a post and go off on some irrelevant point based on your preconceived notions, and attempt to pigeonhole a user into being something they aren't.

 

I'd direct you to read wastedpotential's post - a thoughtful discussion of the actual impact of Hamas' actions. Put aside your leftist ideaological framing drivel about resistance, oppressor and opressed, global north global south, power ect - and think about what is actually happening, where this is going, and what Hamas have achieved with their dumb, pointless brutality.

 

 

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, Harrier said:

 non-Western

So you claim I support Russia, and then say the evidence for that is that I am...anti-Western? Where do you...think Russia is located?

 

That you don't think Russia is a Western country shows what means you view this conflict in.