Sombre Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 17 minutes ago, Monster Megamind said: The one thing Biden did not do is call all Palestinians terrorists. He's only focusing on Hamas my mistake, i seem to have misinterpreted one of his earlier tweets. my point still stands, he disregarded innocent Palestinians up until recently, and i think the majority of us can see through his transparent motives. 1
Monster Megamind Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Sombre said: my mistake, i seem to have misinterpreted one of his earlier tweets. my point still stands, he disregarded innocent Palestinians up until recently, and i think the majority of us can see through his transparent motives. He definitely has a pro israel bias. But that's how the full Washington DC is. 1
Scars Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Communion said: "Yes, Israel is the source of violence and will likely continue ravaging the Palestinian people in their goal of a pure ethno-state, but no one can stop them so we need to accept them as a permanent fixture and work on appeasing them to get them to stop so the Palestinians need to make some concessions?" Reread that and ask yourself why any Palestinian would denigrate themselves to live under the boot of Zionism instead of committing themselves to the mission of destroying the Israeli state, a force that people keep acknowledging wants them dead and has a right to? "Destroy Hamas," "eradicate Hamas," "wipe out Hamas." These things don't mean anything. People who say them can't tell you what actions they actually think would achieve such. Israel does not differentiate between men over the age of 18 and actual Hamas fighters in Gaza. Look at news reports Western reporters repeat Israel figures that "1300 Hamas militants have died". So somehow Israel has killed 700 Palestinain children and dozens of UN workers but magically no adult women? No civilian men? All just Hamas? The lie perpetuated is to hide that "destroy Hamas" really just means to collectively punish Gazans to never pursue or consider violent resistance to occupation ever again. Well said as always. The "Free Palestine...from Hamas!" crowd deliberately ignore the fact that there'll be a negative narrative painted against any Palestinian resistance movement, and that narrative will ultimately be used to justify the mass murder and ethnic cleaning from Israel against Palestinians, because Israel and it’s western allies do not believe Palestinians have a right to fight back for their lives and land, regardless of what their resistance may look like. "-but but Hamas are cold-hearted sociopaths that want all Jews erased from the Middle East, they are the ones to blame for the situation Gazans are currently in!!" I wish people could stop spouting those talking points for just one second and genuinely ask themselves about the Israel-Palestine dynamics before the rise of Hamas to power. - When did Israel start stealing lands exceeding the initial proposed demarcation by the UN? Was it before Hamas? - Were people already displaced from their villages, in order to give space to Israeli settlers, and turned into refugees unable to return to home? - Were palestinian civilians already killed at alarmingly high rates by the IDF? The answer to all these questions are: yes. No ifs, ands, or buts. Let's not sit in here and disingenuously act like the West had any sort of positive perception of the *secular* Palestinian liberation organizations during that time, most of these parties being self-proclaimed either as Marxist-Leninist or Social Democrat, like Fatah, and that Israel didn't do everything in their power to shut PLO off (and still does). I mean, the funding of Israel to Hamas, in the hopes of dividing and conquering Palestinians, is how Hamas got the backing needed to become a relevant military force to begin with. The truth, and that may be uncomfortable to some, is that whether Palestinian civilians support Hamas or not, it really doesn't matter at the end of the day. Sure, it's important to let it be clear that many of them absolutely despise their actions and make that distinction, but that information shouldn't hold any weight to the credibility of the Palestinian struggle. As we've already discussed many times before in this thread, people living under extreme horror and degrading conditions will hold themselves to any force that presents itself as a strong fighter capable of achieving their freedom. Western liberals need to stop looking at the world through Marvel'd lens and stop punishing people living under an aparhteid regime because some of them do not behave like the perfect victims straight out of a sanitized Hollywood documentary-film. Edited October 16, 2023 by Scars 14
Monster Megamind Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 I think Biden admin is focusing on still making the Israel Saudi deal successful. That's why the focus on destroy Hamas, which Saudi won't mind but if too many civilians die, that deal collapses. I hope the civilian death keeps below 10k. 1
Aethereal Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 2 hours ago, State of Grace. said: This was so well said. Zionist propaganda machine in the West has been framing the conflict as this deeply "complicated" and incredibly "layered" issue that is "difficult to grasp" and much more "complex" than it appears for the average person for decades to further entrench the status quo, convincing people to stay away from learning the truth, and therefore remaining "neutral". This conflict is only "complicated" if you are doing Olympic-level mental gymnastics to try and justify an ongoing genocide or if you have mixed feelings about apartheid/ethnic cleansing. It's 2023 and this has been happening for over 7 decades. There's truly no excuse for you to not open a damn book, read about the history of Palestine, watch a documentary, follow and listen to Palestinian creators/journalists and educate yourself if you genuinely want to. I understand that many have been force-fed propaganda since birth and there's no shame in asking for resources to educate yourself, but choosing to stay ignorant in this digital age while still rambling about "both sides" is something else. I have zero patience left for these people, and they have completely lost the benefit of the doubt. And once again: constantly handwringing about both sides, whataboutism, and equivocation isn't "nuance". It's taking a stance without having the spine to say it. While I usually think that it's best to just keep your mouth shut/sit down and eat your food if you're ignorant instead of making a fool out of yourself like many celebs/creators/influencers have been doing this week, I feel ilike it is being used as an excuse to shirk any responsibility from having to say anything. And this includes "normal" people as well. Israel is the root of the conflict that is not complicated but both Israelis and Palestinians support far right leaders of their countries so the solution is quite complicated. What Israel needs to do first is improve the lives of the Palestinians when it comes to basic needs just as drinkable WATER, invest in their both of Jewish and Palestinians school to teach against xenophobia from both sides. Considering more than 50% of Palestinians in polls did not support the recent Hamas attack in Israel I wonder if Israel did not use violence against Gaza for the first time how would this affect the Palestinians' opinion of Israelis for peace? Just for a starter. 1
Communion Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: The Democratic Party establishment leans Zionist to match the extent of Americans who lean Zionist, as seen in this poll from two days ago. A peak of 69% of American Democrats saying the US should support Israel vs: 99% of House Dems supporting unconditional military funding to Israel 97% of House Dems supporting increased Iron Dome funding 96% of House Dems supporting a resolution that said Israel is not an apartheid state 95% of House Dems supporting a resolution that Israel has a right to defend itself by any means necessary 88% of House Dems rejecting a resolution calling on to recognize the rights of Palestinian civilians - baring in mind that Dem voter support for Israel was much lower during most of these measures in Congress. I would not say the average Dem voter and Dem politician are equally aligned on this matter, especially before this week. And while true many Americans do not consider foreign policy in their vote, your post ignores the realities of how 9/11 worked and how neo-conservatism works as a movement where aggressive militarism around the globe is used psychologically to where bloodlust makes someone a strong leader, a brave leader, a powerful leader, etc. Trying to whitewash Biden - or any Western leader - as needing to gauge the barometer of how his or her country feels first before assessing whether it is wrong or not for them to assist Israel in its genocide is silly. They for decades have already promoted anti-Palestinian bias as part of their careers. Israel's existence is proof of the Western's world support for settler colonialism. Biden has the power to stop Israel. That's objective fact. The American public are inundated with constant messaging that Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis are America's closest allies because American politicians are bipartisan in their belief in such. This occupation and ethnic cleansing is happening because Biden (and all other past American leaders) want it to. This is happening because Trudeau wants it to. This is happening because Sunak wants it to. This is happening because Albanese wants it to. This is happening because Macron wants it to. This is happening because Scholz wants it to. To act like these powerful leaders have their hands tied and that somehow the very same country that gets propped up by billions in aid is unstoppable is silly. To me it is antisemitic for any of us to think Israel is all-powerful. Israel doesn't have magic. Israel doesn't have mind control. It does not control the West - the West controls it; yet the West have decided the material benefits from having a military outpost in the Middle East is worth the lives of thousands, tens of thousands, and possibly millions of Palestinians. It's now come to trying to bribe Egypt to take in 2M refugees. That's madness. Edited October 15, 2023 by Communion 7 2
airplane Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) There’s hardly any updates anymore. I hope things are calming down and we’re heading towards talks instead of more civilian casualties. I’m struggling to believe this: Edited October 15, 2023 by airplane 1
Vermillion Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 59 minutes ago, Monster Megamind said: Right now my bigger worry is Hezbollah starting a war from the north. Then unfortunately US will play a more active role. This is where most of my focus is at the moment too, honestly.
Monster Megamind Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Democratic establishment will totally abandon the DSA from now on. And I'm glad. I prefer the pro union and strike route for Dems than them. 2 4
Scars Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) Does anyone have info if Gazan Palestinians with dual citizenship already left Gaza by the Rafah border in safety? Context: Americans Might Leave Gaza on Saturday, Says US Official Quote American citizens in the Gaza Strip may be allowed to leave on Saturday, according to a US official with knowledge of the situation. Still, while Israel and Egypt have said they can exit via the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt, it’s unclear if Hamas will agree to that, said the official, who declined to be named discussing private talks. Israel announced a “safe passage” on Saturday as it urges more civilians to move from the north of Gaza — where the Israeli military is concentrating the bulk of its operations — to the south. It ends at 4 p.m. local time (2 p.m. UK). [...] The intention is to have the border crossing open from noon to 5 pm local time, the official said. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-14/americans-may-be-allowed-to-leave-gaza-on-saturday-us-official Edited October 15, 2023 by Scars
airplane Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) Edited October 15, 2023 by airplane
Vermillion Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, GhostBox said: From the beginning everything I have watched everyone has made it clear hamas doenst represent Palestinians as a whole. I remember CNN making a point to say that a lot when they first started reporting on it. CNN reported on the kids beheadings number from the Israelis without verifying it as well as Joe himself and both turned out to be false. Netanyahu and his parties conflation is well documented and I’m not extrapolating outside of that to Western MSM but that too is wildly problematic.
Aethereal Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 19 minutes ago, airplane said: There’s hardly any updates anymore. I hope things are calming down and we’re heading towards talks instead of more civilian casualties. I’m struggling to believe this: Associated Press. 15 October 2023. Retrieved 15 October 2023. ...Juliette Touma, a spokesperson for the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees. An estimated 1 million people have been displaced in Gaza in one week, she said. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-785e0eb833715354cade4694e8ccbf67
Aethereal Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed, a new Dialog Center poll released on Thursday found. An overwhelming majority – 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country’s leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety. A slim majority of 56% said Netanyahu must resign at the end of the war, with 28% of coalition voters agreeing with this view, and 52% of respondents also expect Defense Minister Yoav Gallant to resign. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880 1 1
Vermillion Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 This notion of “eliminating Hamas”. I’m getting deja vu as an American to the “War on Terror”. Empty sloganeering. Hamas is not getting eliminated from Gaza, even operationally. I think their boasts about the extent of the depth of their tunnel structures to survive bombings is exaggerated but it can’t be ignored either.
wastedpotential Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 4 minutes ago, Communion said: A peak of 69% of American Democrats saying the US should support Israel vs: 99% of House Dems supporting unconditional military funding to Israel 97% of House Dems supporting increased Iron Dome funding 96% of House Dems supporting a resolution that said Israel is not an apartheid state 95% of House Dems supporting a resolution that Israel has a right to defend itself by any means necessary 88% of House Dems rejecting a resolution calling on to recognize the rights of Palestinian civilians - baring in mind that Dem voter support for Israel was much lower during most of these measures in Congress. I would not say the average Dem voter and Dem politician are equally aligned on this matter, especially before this week. And while true many Americans do not consider foreign policy in their vote, your post ignores the realities of how 9/11 worked and how neo-conservatism works as a movement where aggressive militarism around the globe is used psychologically to where bloodlust makes someone a strong leader, a brave leader, a powerful leader, etc. Trying to whitewash Biden - or any Western leader - as needing to gauge the barometer of how his or her country feels first before assessing whether it is wrong or not for them to assist Israel in its genocide is silly. They for decades have already promoted anti-Palestinian bias as part of their careers. Israel's existence is proof of the Western's world support for settler colonialism. Biden has the power to stop Israel. That's objective fact. The American public are inundated with constant messaging that Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis are America's closest allies because American politicians are bipartisan in their belief in such. This occupation and ethnic cleansing is happening because Biden (and all other past American leaders) want it to. This is happening because Trudeau wants it to. This is happening because Sunak wants it to. This is happening because Albanese wants it to. This is happening because Macron wants it to. This is happening because Scholz wants it to. To act like these powerful leaders have their hands tied and that somehow the very same country that gets propped up by billions in aid is unstoppable is silly. I will certainly agree with you that the voting records of Democrats in congress do not correctly match the attitudes of Democrats across the country, but the challenge faced by the electoral system that the US has in place today is that the ~69% of Democratic voters are spread pretty evenly across the country, so while I haven't seen any district-by-district polling, with a few exceptions (Some parts of Suburban Detroit and the urban cores of many cities), the assumption can rightly be made that about 69% of Democrats in every house district support Israel to a high degree, and it just makes sense to cater to that 69% of your electorate over the 31%, especially when this is very likely a secondary issue to many voters (again, exceptions probably being the Palestinian-American communities) behind abortion, healthcare, or immigration. If the US electoral system was designed in a way where regional distribution of ideology didn't impact electoral outcomes (an at-large, proportionate representation system as is seen in some other countries, perhaps), then there would certainly be a strong enough block of pro-Palestinian single-issue voters to elect at least a few members of a single-issue party who would be stronger on the issue. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in, and while this is an interesting thought-experiment, it has zero practical implications for the time being. I would also reason that the electoral response to 9/11 was broadly driven off of the supposed foreign policy successes of the Bush Administration before the 2004 election, but before that, the last preceding foreign policy events to actually shape the outcome of a US presidential election were the Vietnam War and the Oil Embargo of 1973. The operative difference between those instances and the present situation is that 9/11, Vietnam, and the Oil Embargo all had a marked and continuous effect on the majority of the American population for many years leading up to that election. Unless the war between Israel and Gaza escalates, with thousands of American boots on the ground for several months, this conflict will likely not have the same impact. I'd argue that the majority of the electoral success in the US of the Neo-Conservative movement came from social ideology (the Tea Party or the anti-abortion single issue, for instance), even if it did have its origins in war-mongering. It is the truly unfortunate fact that the only thing that would push Biden, Trudeau, Sunak, Albanese, Macron, Scholz or any other democratically elected leader to wield their power to stop Israel from the path it is currently on would be a majority of their electorate being strongly pro-Palestine enough to make their feelings known. Every one of those countries does have a notable pro-Palestine and anti-Zionist population, but they are either likely to electorally support an opposition party (UK Labour, La France Insoumise, Die Linke), or are a small enough component of the support of the ruling party (as with the Democrats, Australian Labour, and the SPD) that the leadership feels justified in supporting Israel. In all of these countries, supporting Israel is the path of least resistance for the leadership, and it will remain so for the foreseeable future, unless the attitudes of their electoral base changes drastically enough. I don't think it's true to say that Biden and other western leaders took the political temperature of their populations before determining their actions regarding Israel and Palestine; I think they safely assumed that the political will had not changed from the 50+ preceding years of strong support from their electorates for Israel. The support from the populations for Israel may be rooted in a colonial mindset, but at this point, it is simply engrained in the average mindset of the average citizen, even (and especially those) who see no benefit from the status quo. The average American believes it is their moral duty (for a multitude of reasons that would take a mind much brighter than mine to succinctly lay out here) to financially support Israel, and the average elected official believes the same. It's truly tragic, but I don't know if any amount of carnage, violence, or loss of life amongst Palestinian civilians would be able to sway the opinion of the majority.
Vermillion Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Tom’s not running for president hence why I’m putting this here as opposed to 2024 thread. But… Likely will beyond 2028, so, fun times. /s
State of Grace. Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 12 minutes ago, Aristotle said: Israel is the root of the conflict that is not complicated but both Israelis and Palestinians support far right leaders of their countries so the solution is quite complicated. I agree with the first half but Palestinians have not "chosen" a leader since 2006, the last time elections were held, so this honestly just falls under the "Palestinians are represented by Hamas" rhetoric. We aren't really talking about a war between two countries. It's a nuclear state with one of the most powerful/advanced/high-tech armies in the world against people with no state, no army, no navy, no air force, no massive foreign aid, and almost nonexistent civilian infrastructure. I don't even like the word "conflict" because it's actually colonialism, apartheid, genocide, land theft, and a brutal illegal military occupation. Those words accurately explain and describe what is actually happening there. 11
Aethereal Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, State of Grace. said: I agree with the first half but Palestinians have not "chosen" a leader since 2006, the last time elections were held, so this honestly just falls under the "Palestinians are represented by Hamas" rhetoric. We aren't really talking about a war between two countries. It's a nuclear state with one of the most powerful/advanced/high-tech armies in the world against people with no state, no army, no navy, no air force, no massive foreign aid, and almost nonexistent civilian infrastructure. I don't even like the word "conflict" because it's actually colonialism, apartheid, genocide, land theft, and a brutal illegal military occupation. Those words accurately explain and describe what is actually happening there. Polls show that Palestinians favor Hamas over Abbas but Israel barely gives them a chance to know better.
Popular Post Virgos Groove Posted October 15, 2023 Popular Post Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: I agree with the first half but Palestinians have not "chosen" a leader since 2006, the last time elections were held, so this honestly just falls under the "Palestinians are represented by Hamas" rhetoric. Not only that, but Hamas won because the people in Gaza saw them as a last resort after the secular leadership was diminished after the Second Intifada, not because they love Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Hamas even won Christian villages in that election. They have legitimacy in Gaza because they're the only ones who can mount any kind of opposition to Israel's crimes. At the end of day, the Palestinians have to work with what they have, not what they'd wish to have. Israel has been oppressing Palestinians long before Hamas existed (and would continue to if Hamas stopped existing this very second), so the "but, but Hamas!1!1!!!" cries will always ring as a misunderstanding of the conflict (or straight-up concern trolling) to me. Edited October 15, 2023 by Virgos Groove 5 13
Scars Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, brazil said: There is a very good documentary I found in Netflix that shows the devastation in Gaza after the last Israeli assault there, it's called "Born in Gaza". There is no Portuguese subtitles, but it was still among the most watched yesterday in Brazil. It's amazing to see Palestinians being depicted as humans, in contrast to most major western media Brazil's discourse on Israel-Palestine is currently a mess because evangelicals, which make up over 31% of our population, wholeheartedly believe that the entire region was promised by God to Jewish people as The Holy Land for eternity, some of them are so passionate about Israel that they'll go as far as remove Jews out of the discourse and center themselves. Any horror committed by Israel will be justified by christian talking points. On top of that, our mainstream neoliberal media align themselves with the US as much as possible. Under this scenario, voicing opposing views can be challenging as we both know, but I do think some of our most influential progressive figures and independent media are doing a really good job at spreading the word about the Palestinian struggle and Israel genocidal occupation. Support for Palestine seems to be at an all-time high within left-leaning circles these past few years. Your post reminded me of the huge difference between The Intercept US and The Intercept Brasil report on latest events: The Intercept Brazil: Israel-Palestine - 11 distortions about Gaza and Hamas in the media Quote [Brazilian] Mainstream media has a pro-Israel bias imported from the US. Keep an eye on these 11 narrative distortions as Israel embarks on a terrorist campaign that promises to “turn Gaza into a desert island.” Link to the article: https://www.intercept.com.br/2023/10/11/maior-jornal-de-israel-culpa-benjamin-netanyahu-por-violencia-nao-hamas/ The Intercept US: Hamas Is Dragging Israel Toward the Abyss Quote Israel has avoided ruling Gaza on the ground — but Hamas may have forced it to try. [...] The fate of Hamas may well be sealed, but that outcome will place Israel in a very dire situation as well, one that it has long sought to avoid. Link to the article: https://theintercept.com/2023/10/13/israel-ground-invasion-gaza-hamas/ No wonder they're a much more relevant independent media outlet in Brazil than in the US. Edited October 15, 2023 by Scars 4 1
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