news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[ClashAndBurn]

19 minutes ago, Glam said:

But "Gaza is an open air prison" according to some people. Gaza has an 8 mile border with Egypt, a muslim country. Does Israel control that border too? No, they don't. So what happened with the brotherhood that muslims allegedly have? Egypt isn't a developed country but they don't lack any of the basics, why don't they support Gaza more? Can anyone explain?

you do realize that Israel has been bombarding the border crossing from Gaza into Egypt, yes? They're only just stopping short of firing over the Egyptian border. The entire point is to keep 2m+ Gaza residents trapped in a small space.

 

Funny, none of the Israel stans have even bothered to acknowledge this fact or say that it's the wrong thing to do. Israeli bloodlust is justified in all forms here on this forum though I guess?

[Scars]

2 hours ago, Communion said:

After that, it feels important to highlight these below posts from before from users who always speak with both consideration and sincerity (with all 3 being far more eloquent and in-tune to many of the experiences being touched on than myself could be [praise to a myriad of other users as well, of course]):

 

(I'm also thinking of @Jjang in times like this and hope they're doing okay. )

As someone that doesn't really speak english as a first language, I try my best to fully articulate myself here, but sometimes it is hard to not feel a bit anxious about that getting in the way of my message, especially on such a sensitive topic. Thank you, sis.

 

Your posts here definitely make the communist experience on ATRL feel less lonely. 

 

2 hours ago, Jjang said:

Thank you for thinking of me. There's simply too much chaos going on and no energy to engage in social media/internet activities. But I'm well. 

We haven't interacted much on this board, but I'd also like to share that I thought of you these past few days. I love reading your in-depth takes here. I've seen you multiple times being kind, thoughtful and helpful to other members that admitted to not know much about the Palestinian struggle, but wanted to learn more. Your voice is deeply appreciated. Good to hear you're doing well despite everything. 

[SeeingStars1515]

2 minutes ago, Bloo said:

You’re missing the point. Oppression pushes people to the point of retaliation. Hamas was literally established in the 80s following a Palestinian uprising against Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Of course the recent Hamas-led violence is wrong. But, it is completely naïve and unproductive to not acknowledge that the Western world empowering Israel while Palestinian people have suffered from an apartheid state only serves as fodder to radicalize people towards groups like Hamas. 
 

People have their breaking point where they’ll inevitably retaliate. That’s the point. It doesn’t justify or place Hamas as the moral actor here. They’re not. But you need more context when discussing this issue than just “Hamas is the bad guy and that’s the whole story” like it’s a cheap storyline from the MCU. 

I quite understand this. In fact, I think most people debating here understand that. What has been shocking to me is the immediacy of how the deaths from the terrorist attack turned to blame Israel for its action - not even giving Israelis or the Jewish diaspora a moment of mourning (yes, it's intertwined - this whole idea that it's antisemitic is kinda dumb. There are 14 million Jews compared in this world - like .2% of the population so the diaspora does tend to react with fear/grief/anger at the most number of Jews killed in a day since the Holocaust). Combine that with Hamas's real intention of Jewish extermination - yes, youre going to see some people fed up rush to compare to civilian deaths to israeli govt actions.

 

I dont know any Jewish person who thinks the Israeli govt as it stands is a good path forward (most diasporic Jews are in the US and are left-leaning considerably). 

 

I like to look at it in two ways. You have governments being government (i.e. corrupt and power hungry) and you have Jews who have generations of trauma woven into their dna, be it from the holocaust, the inquisition, and several other attempts at extinction - some that took place after israelis agreed to a 2 state solution and nearby Arab countries all attacked. 

 

None of this takes away from the generational trauma that has been inflicted on Palestinians either. 

 

But it;'s exhausting to have to defend Jewish lives with - well they probably had it coming.

[shelven]

I've been waffling back and forth on whether or not to make this post because I know some people will (perhaps intentionally, in some cases) misinterpret it, but I figured I'd share my perspective for the benefit of people who are at least interested in understanding what the other side is thinking, even if you disagree with it. Not to be cheesy and naive, but I think if this conflict ever does end, it'll be because people on both sides are finally willing to at least understand the other side's concerns, even if they don't think those concerns justify the actions that result from them.

 

My own understanding of this conflict stems from the fact that I went through Jewish schooling for 12 years where students were subjected to an extremely one-sided, propagandist, pro-Israel education of the conflict, which I then spent many years unlearning. I'm now firmly against the vast majority (if not the entirety) of the current Israeli government's actions and believe that the Israeli government is actively and intentionally perpetuating this conflict by committing numerous long-time and ongoing human rights violations against Palestinians.

 

Even though I've gotten to that position myself, I'm surrounded by a lot of close friends and family members who are firmly pro-Israel and fall squarely in the "Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how aggressively it does so" camp. While some of them are right-wing in many aspects of politics, a lot of them are very left-wing and progressive on practically every other political issue other than the Israel/Palestine conflict. So I figured I'd share the most common concerns I hear from those people. To be extremely clear (not that it will stop some people from reading this post in bad faith anyways), I'm not endorsing these concerns nor am I remotely suggesting they come close to justifying the crimes that the Israeli government has and continues to commit against Palestinians. But what I do strongly feel is that it's extremely counterproductive to write off every pro-Israel person as fundamentally evil and bigoted and to wave off the nuances of this conflict when many of the people doing the hand waving likely don't have any close personal connections to Palestinians or Israelis. So if anyone's interested, here's some of the perspective I've gained from being surrounded by a lot of pro-Israel people in my life:

 

1) The biggest obstacle to peace on the pro-Israel side is that most of them fundamentally do not believe that the Jewish people in Israel (or frankly at large) will be safe from harm if the occupation ends, mostly due to the continued existence of Hamas. I very often see posts along the lines of "if Israel ended the occupation today, the conflict would end" on social media - pro-Israel people will never be convinced of that while Hamas still has any sort of leadership position in Palestine. Honestly, this is probably the fear I sympathize with the most. What often goes ignored on social media is that up until just a few years ago, the Hamas Charter had numerous directly antisemitic statements in it that essentially called for the eradication of the Jewish people. Those comments aren't in the current Charter, but they've left a permanent impression on how the pro-Israel Jewish population views Hamas. These people are genuinely fearful that if Israel stopped exerting military power over a Hamas-led Palestine, Hamas would attempt to systematically murder as many Jewish people as possible. This conflict has zero chance of ever ending while Hamas is still in power because you will never convince most pro-Israel people that Hamas is solely interested in a free Palestine and they wouldn't commit or incite further violence against Jewish people after that.

 

2) The "anti-Zionism /=/ antisemitism" point is more complex than well-educated, politically engaged people can see. For what it's worth, I personally strongly believe in a separation of the Jewish religion and Zionism and even believed that back when I was still being "brainwashed" about Israel in school. But it's easy for myself and for the type of person who will see this post - who is more politically engaged and consistently online than the average pro-Israel supporter - to understand that concept. Most older pro-Israel Jewish people aren't seeing the nuanced discussions online; they're seeing videos like the "gas the Jews" chant that just took place in Australia or the Facebook comments where people describe Jews as a cancer that should have been wiped out in the Holocaust so that this conflict wouldn't have happened. It's absolutely true that anti-Zionism doesn't inherently equal antisemitism, but it's also true that there are many anti-Zionists who are also antisemitic. So a lot of pro-Israel Jewish people feel gaslit when they're told that this conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, and that leads them to overreact in the opposite direction and assume that all anti-Zionists must be antisemites who just don't want to admit they're antisemitic.

 

3) A lot of the pro-Israel position ultimately comes down to a combination of a very intentional and coordinated misinformation campaign in Jewish communities and cultural/societal pressure. Zionist advocacy groups spend a TON of money and effort making sure that their version of history is the only version that Jewish people learn. Essentially all of the top donors of my Jewish high school were Zionists, so the school was basically forced to teach that incredibly lopsided history. Growing up, I never learned that Israel was illegally building settlements in the West Bank. I never learned that Israel controlled essentially all of Gaza's resources. I literally never even learned that Palestine was recognized as a legally separate entity from Israel - Gaza and the West Bank were always framed as areas of Israel that were controlled by Palestinian groups and were the subject of controversy. That severe lack of education is what leads to the seemingly hypocritical reactions by pro-Israel people who have been traumatized by the deaths of Israeli civilians this weekend but have never spoken out about the deaths of Gazans. A lot of them literally don't know it's happening because Zionist advocacy groups work extremely hard to keep them in the dark. And what's worse, that lack of information is compounded by a lot of pressure within the community to be pro-Israel in order to be a "good Jew." I can't even count the number of extremely heated arguments I had with my own family members as I was unlearning the pro-Israel version of history. It's very difficult to talk about with friends and family because, like I said above, even people who are otherwise very progressive across all other social issues are staunchly pro-Israel due to their own lack of education on the subject. So the cycle never ends - the biased education keeps happening, and most people don't unlearn that education because the people who try often end up feeling a sense of guilt and betrayal to their families and larger culture. I know it can be frustrating to be told not to view the people who are clearly supporting bad things as bad people, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

Anyways, I don't really have a larger point with this post. To be honest, writing it up is probably just a form of therapy for me as I grapple with the stress and internal tension of being pro-Palestine myself while also not wanting to see people in my life that I care about being written off as irredeemable villains when I know why many of them feel the way they do (even if I disagree with it). I very likely won't be responding to any quotes of this (from either side) because my intention isn't to try to wade into the debate myself, but I think everybody on all sides could use a reminder that conflicts almost never get solved by one side refusing to understand what's going on in the minds of the other side.

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, Gui Blackout said:

The murdering of Israelis is a direct consequence of Hamas wanting to murder Israelis, actually. 

 

Please drop this talking point because is effectively whitewashing Hamas' crimes and selling their bloodthirsty jihad as a noble "resistance".

No resistance is allowed by Israel, violent or non-violent. If you protest peacefully they shoot you, and if you advocate for non-violent sanctions such as BDS they call you antisemitic.  Had they just attacked military targets it would not have gotten any attention by the people who claim to want peace.  

[ClashAndBurn]

4 minutes ago, Gui Blackout said:

The murdering of Israelis is a direct consequence of Hamas wanting to murder Israelis, actually. 

 

Please drop this talking point because is effectively whitewashing Hamas' crimes and selling their bloodthirsty jihad as a noble "resistance".

The decades of oppression Gazans have faced at the hands of the IDF is a direct root cause leading to Hamas being accepted by the Palestinians as "resistance." It doesn't make their cause noble and just - it is abhorrent, and I can find it within myself to say that. But I think a lot of Americans especially suffer from a severe lack of empathy to even address why things have happened this way, or the role their actions have played in the power imbalance. Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu-Akleh being shot in the head by the IDF last year was a telling moment because Joe Biden barely acknowledged her assassination and swept it under the rug just like both him and Trump did to Jamal Khashoggi.

[SeeingStars1515]

4 minutes ago, shelven said:

I've been waffling back and forth on whether or not to make this post because I know some people will (perhaps intentionally, in some cases) misinterpret it, but I figured I'd share my perspective for the benefit of people who are at least interested in understanding what the other side is thinking, even if you disagree with it. Not to be cheesy and naive, but I think if this conflict ever does end, it'll be because people on both sides are finally willing to at least understand the other side's concerns, even if they don't think those concerns justify the actions that result from them.

 

My own understanding of this conflict stems from the fact that I went through Jewish schooling for 12 years where students were subjected to an extremely one-sided, propagandist, pro-Israel education of the conflict, which I then spent many years unlearning. I'm now firmly against the vast majority (if not the entirety) of the current Israeli government's actions and believe that the Israeli government is actively and intentionally perpetuating this conflict by committing numerous long-time and ongoing human rights violations against Palestinians.

 

Even though I've gotten to that position myself, I'm surrounded by a lot of close friends and family members who are firmly pro-Israel and fall squarely in the "Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how aggressively it does so" camp. While some of them are right-wing in many aspects of politics, a lot of them are very left-wing and progressive on practically every other political issue other than the Israel/Palestine conflict. So I figured I'd share the most common concerns I hear from those people. To be extremely clear (not that it will stop some people from reading this post in bad faith anyways), I'm not endorsing these concerns nor am I remotely suggesting they come close to justifying the crimes that the Israeli government has and continues to commit against Palestinians. But what I do strongly feel is that it's extremely counterproductive to write off every pro-Israel person as fundamentally evil and bigoted and to wave off the nuances of this conflict when many of the people doing the hand waving likely don't have any close personal connections to Palestinians or Israelis. So if anyone's interested, here's some of the perspective I've gained from being surrounded by a lot of pro-Israel people in my life:

 

1) The biggest obstacle to peace on the pro-Israel side is that most of them fundamentally do not believe that the Jewish people in Israel (or frankly at large) will be safe from harm if the occupation ends, mostly due to the continued existence of Hamas. I very often see posts along the lines of "if Israel ended the occupation today, the conflict would end" on social media - pro-Israel people will never be convinced of that while Hamas still has any sort of leadership position in Palestine. Honestly, this is probably the fear I sympathize with the most. What often goes ignored on social media is that up until just a few years ago, the Hamas Charter had numerous directly antisemitic statements in it that essentially called for the eradication of the Jewish people. Those comments aren't in the current Charter, but they've left a permanent impression on how the pro-Israel Jewish population views Hamas. These people are genuinely fearful that if Israel stopped exerting military power over a Hamas-led Palestine, Hamas would attempt to systematically murder as many Jewish people as possible. This conflict has zero chance of ever ending while Hamas is still in power because you will never convince most pro-Israel people that Hamas is solely interested in a free Palestine and they wouldn't commit or incite further violence against Jewish people after that.

 

2) The "anti-Zionism /=/ antisemitism" point is more complex than well-educated, politically engaged people can see. For what it's worth, I personally strongly believe in a separation of the Jewish religion and Zionism and even believed that back when I was still being "brainwashed" about Israel in school. But it's easy for myself and for the type of person who will see this post - who is more politically engaged and consistently online than the average pro-Israel supporter - to understand that concept. Most older pro-Israel Jewish people aren't seeing the nuanced discussions online; they're seeing videos like the "gas the Jews" chant that just took place in Australia or the Facebook comments where people describe Jews as a cancer that should have been wiped out in the Holocaust so that this conflict wouldn't have happened. It's absolutely true that anti-Zionism doesn't inherently equal antisemitism, but it's also true that there are many anti-Zionists who are also antisemitic. So a lot of pro-Israel Jewish people feel gaslit when they're told that this conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, and that leads them to overreact in the opposite direction and assume that all anti-Zionists must be antisemites who just don't want to admit they're antisemitic.

 

3) A lot of the pro-Israel position ultimately comes down to a combination of a very intentional and coordinated misinformation campaign in Jewish communities and cultural/societal pressure. Zionist advocacy groups spend a TON of money and effort making sure that their version of history is the only version that Jewish people learn. Essentially all of the top donors of my Jewish high school were Zionists, so the school was basically forced to teach that incredibly lopsided history. Growing up, I never learned that Israel was illegally building settlements in the West Bank. I never learned that Israel controlled essentially all of Gaza's resources. I literally never even learned that Palestine was recognized as a legally separate entity from Israel - Gaza and the West Bank were always framed as areas of Israel that were controlled by Palestinian groups and were the subject of controversy. That severe lack of education is what leads to the seemingly hypocritical reactions by pro-Israel people who have been traumatized by the deaths of Israeli civilians this weekend but have never spoken out about the deaths of Gazans. A lot of them literally don't know it's happening because Zionist advocacy groups work extremely hard to keep them in the dark. And what's worse, that lack of information is compounded by a lot of pressure within the community to be pro-Israel in order to be a "good Jew." I can't even count the number of extremely heated arguments I had with my own family members as I was unlearning the pro-Israel version of history. It's very difficult to talk about with friends and family because, like I said above, even people who are otherwise very progressive across all other social issues are staunchly pro-Israel due to their own lack of education on the subject. So the cycle never ends - the biased education keeps happening, and most people don't unlearn that education because the people who try often end up feeling a sense of guilt and betrayal to their families and larger culture. I know it can be frustrating to be told not to view the people who are clearly supporting bad things as bad people, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

Anyways, I don't really have a larger point with this post. To be honest, writing it up is probably just a form of therapy for me as I grapple with the stress and internal tension of being pro-Palestine myself while also not wanting to see people in my life that I care about being written off as irredeemable villains when I know why many of them feel the way they do (even if I disagree with it). I very likely won't be responding to any quotes of this (from either side) because my intention isn't to try to wade into the debate myself, but I think everybody on all sides could use a reminder that conflicts almost never get solved by one side refusing to understand what's going on in the minds of the other side.

You said a lot of points better than I could haha Thank you.

Point 3 was different for me. I come from a reform Jewish sector that while very pro Israel - isnt quite as staunchly supportive of its actions as maybe your experience. 

 

This idea that Jews in Israel have nothing to fear is bogus and historically inaccurate (both past and present). 

[Gui Blackout]

2 minutes ago, BlueTimberwolf said:

Had they just attacked military targets it would not have gotten any attention by the people who claim to want peace.  

Well yeah, the targeting and brutal murdering of hundreds of innocent civilians got more attention than a military target, that's true.

[besaid]

8 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said:

I quite understand this. In fact, I think most people debating here understand that. What has been shocking to me is the immediacy of how the deaths from the terrorist attack turned to blame Israel for its action - not even giving Israelis or the Jewish diaspora a moment of mourning (yes, it's intertwined - this whole idea that it's antisemitic is kinda dumb. There are 14 million Jews compared in this world - like .2% of the population so the diaspora does tend to react with fear/grief/anger at the most number of Jews killed in a day since the Holocaust). Combine that with Hamas's real intention of Jewish extermination - yes, youre going to see some people fed up rush to compare to civilian deaths to israeli govt actions.

 

I dont know any Jewish person who thinks the Israeli govt as it stands is a good path forward (most diasporic Jews are in the US and are left-leaning considerably). 

 

I like to look at it in two ways. You have governments being government (i.e. corrupt and power hungry) and you have Jews who have generations of trauma woven into their dna, be it from the holocaust, the inquisition, and several other attempts at extinction - some that took place after israelis agreed to a 2 state solution and nearby Arab countries all attacked. 

 

None of this takes away from the generational trauma that has been inflicted on Palestinians either. 

 

But it;'s exhausting to have to defend Jewish lives with - well they probably had it coming.

And the criticism of Israelis for having resisted the 1-state solution in the past is like...Hamas is the leadership of the other state that would be joining with the mostly Jewish state - and Hamas have explicitly written in their charters that their aims are to wipe out Jews. It's completely ridiculous and ignorant to expect Israel to agree to a one-state solution with Hamas.

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, SeeingStars1515 said:

You said a lot of points better than I could haha Thank you.

Point 3 was different for me. I come from a reform Jewish sector that while very pro Israel - isnt quite as staunchly supportive of its actions as maybe your experience. 

 

This idea that Jews in Israel have nothing to fear is bogus and historically inaccurate (both past and present). 

Being afraid is understandable, but that is just not an excuse to continue to subjugate millions of people because you are afraid of what some in the group might due. Israel already has massive defensives and plenty of money. Maybe ending the occupation would actually lead to less support for extremist groups. 

 

But let's be honest......it's not just about security. It's also about preserving the idea of a Jewish state. That would come into play even if the Palestinians were totally peaceful.  

[Bloo]

15 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said:

I quite understand this. In fact, I think most people debating here understand that. What has been shocking to me is the immediacy of how the deaths from the terrorist attack turned to blame Israel for its action - not even giving Israelis or the Jewish diaspora a moment of mourning (yes, it's intertwined - this whole idea that it's antisemitic is kinda dumb. There are 14 million Jews compared in this world - like .2% of the population so the diaspora does tend to react with fear/grief/anger at the most number of Jews killed in a day since the Holocaust). Combine that with Hamas's real intention of Jewish extermination - yes, youre going to see some people fed up rush to compare to civilian deaths to israeli govt actions.

 

I dont know any Jewish person who thinks the Israeli govt as it stands is a good path forward (most diasporic Jews are in the US and are left-leaning considerably). 

 

I like to look at it in two ways. You have governments being government (i.e. corrupt and power hungry) and you have Jews who have generations of trauma woven into their dna, be it from the holocaust, the inquisition, and several other attempts at extinction - some that took place after israelis agreed to a 2 state solution and nearby Arab countries all attacked. 

 

None of this takes away from the generational trauma that has been inflicted on Palestinians either. 

 

But it;'s exhausting to have to defend Jewish lives with - well they probably had it coming.

This is fair. It's generally a clusterf**k in the sense that I think a lot of people are going to rush to expand on the pro-Palestine side because the Western world is primed to be pro-Israel and completely erase the history of the conflict. The fact is, there is a lot of money, Islamaphobia, and other forces that go into taking advantage of the situation for profit at the expense of Palestinian people. Because the Palestinian people are so overlooked and have such little power, it makes sense people want to vocalize that power gap between Palestine and Israel because so few people "get" it.

 

I can appreciate the generational trauma and the need to mourn the loss of life. But we also have to be sure that it's not weaponized to justify further violence against a disempowered population.

 

14 minutes ago, shelven said:

I've been waffling back and forth on whether or not to make this post because I know some people will (perhaps intentionally, in some cases) misinterpret it, but I figured I'd share my perspective for the benefit of people who are at least interested in understanding what the other side is thinking, even if you disagree with it. Not to be cheesy and naive, but I think if this conflict ever does end, it'll be because people on both sides are finally willing to at least understand the other side's concerns, even if they don't think those concerns justify the actions that result from them.

 

My own understanding of this conflict stems from the fact that I went through Jewish schooling for 12 years where students were subjected to an extremely one-sided, propagandist, pro-Israel education of the conflict, which I then spent many years unlearning. I'm now firmly against the vast majority (if not the entirety) of the current Israeli government's actions and believe that the Israeli government is actively and intentionally perpetuating this conflict by committing numerous long-time and ongoing human rights violations against Palestinians.

 

Even though I've gotten to that position myself, I'm surrounded by a lot of close friends and family members who are firmly pro-Israel and fall squarely in the "Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how aggressively it does so" camp. While some of them are right-wing in many aspects of politics, a lot of them are very left-wing and progressive on practically every other political issue other than the Israel/Palestine conflict. So I figured I'd share the most common concerns I hear from those people. To be extremely clear (not that it will stop some people from reading this post in bad faith anyways), I'm not endorsing these concerns nor am I remotely suggesting they come close to justifying the crimes that the Israeli government has and continues to commit against Palestinians. But what I do strongly feel is that it's extremely counterproductive to write off every pro-Israel person as fundamentally evil and bigoted and to wave off the nuances of this conflict when many of the people doing the hand waving likely don't have any close personal connections to Palestinians or Israelis. So if anyone's interested, here's some of the perspective I've gained from being surrounded by a lot of pro-Israel people in my life:

 

1) The biggest obstacle to peace on the pro-Israel side is that most of them fundamentally do not believe that the Jewish people in Israel (or frankly at large) will be safe from harm if the occupation ends, mostly due to the continued existence of Hamas. I very often see posts along the lines of "if Israel ended the occupation today, the conflict would end" on social media - pro-Israel people will never be convinced of that while Hamas still has any sort of leadership position in Palestine. Honestly, this is probably the fear I sympathize with the most. What often goes ignored on social media is that up until just a few years ago, the Hamas Charter had numerous directly antisemitic statements in it that essentially called for the eradication of the Jewish people. Those comments aren't in the current Charter, but they've left a permanent impression on how the pro-Israel Jewish population views Hamas. These people are genuinely fearful that if Israel stopped exerting military power over a Hamas-led Palestine, Hamas would attempt to systematically murder as many Jewish people as possible. This conflict has zero chance of ever ending while Hamas is still in power because you will never convince most pro-Israel people that Hamas is solely interested in a free Palestine and they wouldn't commit or incite further violence against Jewish people after that.

 

2) The "anti-Zionism /=/ antisemitism" point is more complex than well-educated, politically engaged people can see. For what it's worth, I personally strongly believe in a separation of the Jewish religion and Zionism and even believed that back when I was still being "brainwashed" about Israel in school. But it's easy for myself and for the type of person who will see this post - who is more politically engaged and consistently online than the average pro-Israel supporter - to understand that concept. Most older pro-Israel Jewish people aren't seeing the nuanced discussions online; they're seeing videos like the "gas the Jews" chant that just took place in Australia or the Facebook comments where people describe Jews as a cancer that should have been wiped out in the Holocaust so that this conflict wouldn't have happened. It's absolutely true that anti-Zionism doesn't inherently equal antisemitism, but it's also true that there are many anti-Zionists who are also antisemitic. So a lot of pro-Israel Jewish people feel gaslit when they're told that this conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, and that leads them to overreact in the opposite direction and assume that all anti-Zionists must be antisemites who just don't want to admit they're antisemitic.

 

3) A lot of the pro-Israel position ultimately comes down to a combination of a very intentional and coordinated misinformation campaign in Jewish communities and cultural/societal pressure. Zionist advocacy groups spend a TON of money and effort making sure that their version of history is the only version that Jewish people learn. Essentially all of the top donors of my Jewish high school were Zionists, so the school was basically forced to teach that incredibly lopsided history. Growing up, I never learned that Israel was illegally building settlements in the West Bank. I never learned that Israel controlled essentially all of Gaza's resources. I literally never even learned that Palestine was recognized as a legally separate entity from Israel - Gaza and the West Bank were always framed as areas of Israel that were controlled by Palestinian groups and were the subject of controversy. That severe lack of education is what leads to the seemingly hypocritical reactions by pro-Israel people who have been traumatized by the deaths of Israeli civilians this weekend but have never spoken out about the deaths of Gazans. A lot of them literally don't know it's happening because Zionist advocacy groups work extremely hard to keep them in the dark. And what's worse, that lack of information is compounded by a lot of pressure within the community to be pro-Israel in order to be a "good Jew." I can't even count the number of extremely heated arguments I had with my own family members as I was unlearning the pro-Israel version of history. It's very difficult to talk about with friends and family because, like I said above, even people who are otherwise very progressive across all other social issues are staunchly pro-Israel due to their own lack of education on the subject. So the cycle never ends - the biased education keeps happening, and most people don't unlearn that education because the people who try often end up feeling a sense of guilt and betrayal to their families and larger culture. I know it can be frustrating to be told not to view the people who are clearly supporting bad things as bad people, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

Anyways, I don't really have a larger point with this post. To be honest, writing it up is probably just a form of therapy for me as I grapple with the stress and internal tension of being pro-Palestine myself while also not wanting to see people in my life that I care about being written off as irredeemable villains when I know why many of them feel the way they do (even if I disagree with it). I very likely won't be responding to any quotes of this (from either side) because my intention isn't to try to wade into the debate myself, but I think everybody on all sides could use a reminder that conflicts almost never get solved by one side refusing to understand what's going on in the minds of the other side.

This was very enlightening to read. Thank you for writing it.  

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, Gui Blackout said:

Well yeah, the targeting and brutal murdering of hundreds of innocent civilians got more attention than a military target, that's true.

The targeting of Palestinian civilians gets no attention as well. Maybe Hamas believes this brutal attack will provoke a response from Israel that is so over the top and publicized, that other nations (Arab or Western) will finally step in and do something about the occupation. 

[SeeingStars1515]

5 minutes ago, BlueTimberwolf said:

Being afraid is understandable, but that is just not an excuse to continue to subjugate millions of people because you are afraid of what some in the group might due. Israel already has massive defensives and plenty of money. Maybe ending the occupation would actually lead to less support for extremist groups. 

 

But let's be honest......it's not just about security. It's also about preserving the idea of a Jewish state. That would come into play even if the Palestinians were totally peaceful.  

"But let's be honest......it's not just about security. It's also about preserving the idea of a Jewish state"

 

These two things are intertwined. a Jewish state theoretically means a safe haven for Jews (obviously ---- there is an overextension of that idea that hasnt worked). 

Plenty of other nations thrive on this concept of nationhood - places where homogeneity is the rule of thumb.

As someone who lives in the US, I sometimes wonder if we have it all wrong in our pluralism (I'm being facetious of course but still).

[SeeingStars1515]

7 minutes ago, Bloo said:

This is fair. It's generally a clusterf**k in the sense that I think a lot of people are going to rush to expand on the pro-Palestine side because the Western world is primed to be pro-Israel and completely erase the history of the conflict. So, it's very easy to misinterpret a person's perspective based on which part of the conflict they're discussing.

 

This was very enlightening to read. Thank you for writing it.  

I appreciate it :-) 

 

I live in a world where there are definitely many who are pro-Israel and dont know why they are ----and 100% of them are non Jews lol....

 

But as someone who leans politically left, I am surrounded by the opposite. Finding my space of mourning while showing support has been tough.

[Gui Blackout]

4 minutes ago, BlueTimberwolf said:

The targeting of Palestinian civilians gets no attention as well. Maybe Hamas believes this brutal attack will provoke a response from Israel that is so over the top and publicized, that other nations (Arab or Western) will finally step in and do something about the occupation. 

Well nice job cause the result was the exact opposite.

 

Frankly I don't really care to rationalize terrorists intentions because at the end of the day their intentions are one: to murder, which they did. End of story.

[BlueTimberwolf]

3 hours ago, SeeingStars1515 said:

"But let's be honest......it's not just about security. It's also about preserving the idea of a Jewish state"

 

These two things are intertwined. a Jewish state theoretically means a safe haven for Jews (obviously ---- there is an overextension of that idea that hasnt worked). 

Plenty of other nations thrive on this concept of nationhood - places where homogeneity is the rule of thumb.

As someone who lives in the US, I sometimes wonder if we have it all wrong in our pluralism (I'm being facetious of course but still).

And that's the crux of the issue. Even if the Palestinians were peaceful, Israel would have to still push them out since they believe they won't be safe unless the country is demographically majority Jewish. So what are the Palestinians supposed to do about that? Willfully leave? You understand why that is untenable and why Israel is being directly blamed for the conflict regardless of Hamas's actions.  

[Into The Void]

Its so sickening how cruel the world is and so many lost lives. Sigh

[Chemist]

 

53 minutes ago, Bloo said:

You’re missing the point. Oppression pushes people to the point of retaliation. Hamas was literally established in the 80s following a Palestinian uprising against Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Of course the recent Hamas-led violence is wrong. But, it is completely naïve and unproductive to not acknowledge that the Western world empowering Israel while Palestinian people have suffered from an apartheid state only serves as fodder to radicalize people towards groups like Hamas. 
 

People have their breaking point where they’ll inevitably retaliate. That’s the point. It doesn’t justify or place Hamas as the moral actor here. They’re not. But you need more context when discussing this issue than just “Hamas is the bad guy and that’s the whole story” like it’s a cheap storyline from the MCU. 

Exactly. Anyone with even a small understanding of history knew that the situation was a ticking bomb. Most of us didn't expect it to be this bloody and vile though :/

[ClashAndBurn]

18 minutes ago, Chemist said:

 

Exactly. Anyone with even a small understanding of history knew that the situation was a ticking bomb. Most of us didn't expect it to be this bloody and vile though :/

"Nah, you don't get it. The Israelis can do no wrong and can't possibly be the oppressors, only the oppressed! Those Palestinians were supposed to just take it on the chin while settlers took their homes and the IDF butchered them on a daily basis! Therefore, collective punishment of all 2M residents of Gaza should be the just retribution for what Hamas has done!"

[Eternal220]

1 hour ago, Glam said:

But "Gaza is an open air prison" according to some people. Gaza has an 8 mile border with Egypt, a muslim country. Does Israel control that border too? No, they don't. So what happened with the brotherhood that muslims allegedly have? Egypt isn't a developed country but they don't lack any of the basics, why don't they support Gaza more? Can anyone explain?

Exactly, Egypt is helping to enforce the blockade of Gaza.

 

https://mepc.org/commentary/egypt-criticized-gaza-blockade

[bjorn]

How these groups of men can murder babies, children, women and elderly are just beyond comprehension. It must be in human nature to be able to be so evil and cruel. It’s sickening. And the fact they can roam around free and do it to civilians just “for fun”. 

[HungryByTheBuffet]

The Hamas sympathizers in here are really something... Imagine supporting or understanding a terror organization that committed war crimes only parable to ISIS in recent known history whilst thinking your views are progressive liberal or left leaning, or pro human rights in general.

 

People here trying to deny the basic facts that are being heavily reported by all sources such as that civilians were raped, babies beheaded, hundreds of 18-30 year old shot and kidnapped while on drugs tripping etc in the peak of a music festival, entire innocent families abused tortured in unfathomable ways then killed or kidnapped, all of it filmed on phones by terrorists then shared on Telegram groups, posted on Facebook walls from the victim's phones, sent to parents looking for their missing children, it's the most basic unimaginable barbaric scenario which the western realm has fought and tried so hard to minimizes in the world for a better future just so you can all sit on here and try to simp for sadistic terrorists, it's really something...

[Relampago.]

1 hour ago, shelven said:

I've been waffling back and forth on whether or not to make this post because I know some people will (perhaps intentionally, in some cases) misinterpret it, but I figured I'd share my perspective for the benefit of people who are at least interested in understanding what the other side is thinking, even if you disagree with it. Not to be cheesy and naive, but I think if this conflict ever does end, it'll be because people on both sides are finally willing to at least understand the other side's concerns, even if they don't think those concerns justify the actions that result from them.

 

My own understanding of this conflict stems from the fact that I went through Jewish schooling for 12 years where students were subjected to an extremely one-sided, propagandist, pro-Israel education of the conflict, which I then spent many years unlearning. I'm now firmly against the vast majority (if not the entirety) of the current Israeli government's actions and believe that the Israeli government is actively and intentionally perpetuating this conflict by committing numerous long-time and ongoing human rights violations against Palestinians.

 

Even though I've gotten to that position myself, I'm surrounded by a lot of close friends and family members who are firmly pro-Israel and fall squarely in the "Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how aggressively it does so" camp. While some of them are right-wing in many aspects of politics, a lot of them are very left-wing and progressive on practically every other political issue other than the Israel/Palestine conflict. So I figured I'd share the most common concerns I hear from those people. To be extremely clear (not that it will stop some people from reading this post in bad faith anyways), I'm not endorsing these concerns nor am I remotely suggesting they come close to justifying the crimes that the Israeli government has and continues to commit against Palestinians. But what I do strongly feel is that it's extremely counterproductive to write off every pro-Israel person as fundamentally evil and bigoted and to wave off the nuances of this conflict when many of the people doing the hand waving likely don't have any close personal connections to Palestinians or Israelis. So if anyone's interested, here's some of the perspective I've gained from being surrounded by a lot of pro-Israel people in my life:

 

1) The biggest obstacle to peace on the pro-Israel side is that most of them fundamentally do not believe that the Jewish people in Israel (or frankly at large) will be safe from harm if the occupation ends, mostly due to the continued existence of Hamas. I very often see posts along the lines of "if Israel ended the occupation today, the conflict would end" on social media - pro-Israel people will never be convinced of that while Hamas still has any sort of leadership position in Palestine. Honestly, this is probably the fear I sympathize with the most. What often goes ignored on social media is that up until just a few years ago, the Hamas Charter had numerous directly antisemitic statements in it that essentially called for the eradication of the Jewish people. Those comments aren't in the current Charter, but they've left a permanent impression on how the pro-Israel Jewish population views Hamas. These people are genuinely fearful that if Israel stopped exerting military power over a Hamas-led Palestine, Hamas would attempt to systematically murder as many Jewish people as possible. This conflict has zero chance of ever ending while Hamas is still in power because you will never convince most pro-Israel people that Hamas is solely interested in a free Palestine and they wouldn't commit or incite further violence against Jewish people after that.

 

2) The "anti-Zionism /=/ antisemitism" point is more complex than well-educated, politically engaged people can see. For what it's worth, I personally strongly believe in a separation of the Jewish religion and Zionism and even believed that back when I was still being "brainwashed" about Israel in school. But it's easy for myself and for the type of person who will see this post - who is more politically engaged and consistently online than the average pro-Israel supporter - to understand that concept. Most older pro-Israel Jewish people aren't seeing the nuanced discussions online; they're seeing videos like the "gas the Jews" chant that just took place in Australia or the Facebook comments where people describe Jews as a cancer that should have been wiped out in the Holocaust so that this conflict wouldn't have happened. It's absolutely true that anti-Zionism doesn't inherently equal antisemitism, but it's also true that there are many anti-Zionists who are also antisemitic. So a lot of pro-Israel Jewish people feel gaslit when they're told that this conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, and that leads them to overreact in the opposite direction and assume that all anti-Zionists must be antisemites who just don't want to admit they're antisemitic.

 

3) A lot of the pro-Israel position ultimately comes down to a combination of a very intentional and coordinated misinformation campaign in Jewish communities and cultural/societal pressure. Zionist advocacy groups spend a TON of money and effort making sure that their version of history is the only version that Jewish people learn. Essentially all of the top donors of my Jewish high school were Zionists, so the school was basically forced to teach that incredibly lopsided history. Growing up, I never learned that Israel was illegally building settlements in the West Bank. I never learned that Israel controlled essentially all of Gaza's resources. I literally never even learned that Palestine was recognized as a legally separate entity from Israel - Gaza and the West Bank were always framed as areas of Israel that were controlled by Palestinian groups and were the subject of controversy. That severe lack of education is what leads to the seemingly hypocritical reactions by pro-Israel people who have been traumatized by the deaths of Israeli civilians this weekend but have never spoken out about the deaths of Gazans. A lot of them literally don't know it's happening because Zionist advocacy groups work extremely hard to keep them in the dark. And what's worse, that lack of information is compounded by a lot of pressure within the community to be pro-Israel in order to be a "good Jew." I can't even count the number of extremely heated arguments I had with my own family members as I was unlearning the pro-Israel version of history. It's very difficult to talk about with friends and family because, like I said above, even people who are otherwise very progressive across all other social issues are staunchly pro-Israel due to their own lack of education on the subject. So the cycle never ends - the biased education keeps happening, and most people don't unlearn that education because the people who try often end up feeling a sense of guilt and betrayal to their families and larger culture. I know it can be frustrating to be told not to view the people who are clearly supporting bad things as bad people, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

Anyways, I don't really have a larger point with this post. To be honest, writing it up is probably just a form of therapy for me as I grapple with the stress and internal tension of being pro-Palestine myself while also not wanting to see people in my life that I care about being written off as irredeemable villains when I know why many of them feel the way they do (even if I disagree with it). I very likely won't be responding to any quotes of this (from either side) because my intention isn't to try to wade into the debate myself, but I think everybody on all sides could use a reminder that conflicts almost never get solved by one side refusing to understand what's going on in the minds of the other side.

Wonderful post, and I think you make a really important and fair point— Israel supporters are not inherently evil.

 

Something I’ve noticed is that there is a quick response to make anyone who shows support for Israel the villain. I must admit, I get physically irritated seeing so much support come out for Israel after knowing there has been decades of Palestinian slaughter that has been swept under the rug. It feels disingenuous. It feels like people are saying “I care now because Israel has been attacked, but I never cared about how innocent Palestinians died while the world watched.” However, I also realize that this is the result of decades long propaganda to paint Palestine as the enemy and Israel as the oppressed state, fighting for its own safety. 

 

That being said, I hope that if any good comes out of this horrible, vile and stomach-turning war, it’s that people open their eyes to the complicated history that surrounds this situation. That war isn’t always bad guys vs good guys. I hope it highlights the oppression  and cruelty that Palestinians have experienced for decades, and allows people to reflect on what can result from these types of situations. There are bound to be consequences, and they are ugly and unfair— especially to civilians, Israeli and Palestinian alike.  

I know this is wishful thinking. But I do see people starting to empathize with the victims in this situation and are waking up to the horrifying reality of war. I hope that this is a catalyst for change, not just in Gaza, Israel and the West Bank, but the world in general. Completely reaching and honestly naive, but that’s the only way I can hope that this meaningless slaughter results in the education of why wars can happen and how awful they can be.

[Capris Groove]

2 hours ago, shelven said:

I've been waffling back and forth on whether or not to make this post because I know some people will (perhaps intentionally, in some cases) misinterpret it, but I figured I'd share my perspective for the benefit of people who are at least interested in understanding what the other side is thinking, even if you disagree with it. Not to be cheesy and naive, but I think if this conflict ever does end, it'll be because people on both sides are finally willing to at least understand the other side's concerns, even if they don't think those concerns justify the actions that result from them.

 

My own understanding of this conflict stems from the fact that I went through Jewish schooling for 12 years where students were subjected to an extremely one-sided, propagandist, pro-Israel education of the conflict, which I then spent many years unlearning. I'm now firmly against the vast majority (if not the entirety) of the current Israeli government's actions and believe that the Israeli government is actively and intentionally perpetuating this conflict by committing numerous long-time and ongoing human rights violations against Palestinians.

 

Even though I've gotten to that position myself, I'm surrounded by a lot of close friends and family members who are firmly pro-Israel and fall squarely in the "Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter how aggressively it does so" camp. While some of them are right-wing in many aspects of politics, a lot of them are very left-wing and progressive on practically every other political issue other than the Israel/Palestine conflict. So I figured I'd share the most common concerns I hear from those people. To be extremely clear (not that it will stop some people from reading this post in bad faith anyways), I'm not endorsing these concerns nor am I remotely suggesting they come close to justifying the crimes that the Israeli government has and continues to commit against Palestinians. But what I do strongly feel is that it's extremely counterproductive to write off every pro-Israel person as fundamentally evil and bigoted and to wave off the nuances of this conflict when many of the people doing the hand waving likely don't have any close personal connections to Palestinians or Israelis. So if anyone's interested, here's some of the perspective I've gained from being surrounded by a lot of pro-Israel people in my life:

 

1) The biggest obstacle to peace on the pro-Israel side is that most of them fundamentally do not believe that the Jewish people in Israel (or frankly at large) will be safe from harm if the occupation ends, mostly due to the continued existence of Hamas. I very often see posts along the lines of "if Israel ended the occupation today, the conflict would end" on social media - pro-Israel people will never be convinced of that while Hamas still has any sort of leadership position in Palestine. Honestly, this is probably the fear I sympathize with the most. What often goes ignored on social media is that up until just a few years ago, the Hamas Charter had numerous directly antisemitic statements in it that essentially called for the eradication of the Jewish people. Those comments aren't in the current Charter, but they've left a permanent impression on how the pro-Israel Jewish population views Hamas. These people are genuinely fearful that if Israel stopped exerting military power over a Hamas-led Palestine, Hamas would attempt to systematically murder as many Jewish people as possible. This conflict has zero chance of ever ending while Hamas is still in power because you will never convince most pro-Israel people that Hamas is solely interested in a free Palestine and they wouldn't commit or incite further violence against Jewish people after that.

 

2) The "anti-Zionism /=/ antisemitism" point is more complex than well-educated, politically engaged people can see. For what it's worth, I personally strongly believe in a separation of the Jewish religion and Zionism and even believed that back when I was still being "brainwashed" about Israel in school. But it's easy for myself and for the type of person who will see this post - who is more politically engaged and consistently online than the average pro-Israel supporter - to understand that concept. Most older pro-Israel Jewish people aren't seeing the nuanced discussions online; they're seeing videos like the "gas the Jews" chant that just took place in Australia or the Facebook comments where people describe Jews as a cancer that should have been wiped out in the Holocaust so that this conflict wouldn't have happened. It's absolutely true that anti-Zionism doesn't inherently equal antisemitism, but it's also true that there are many anti-Zionists who are also antisemitic. So a lot of pro-Israel Jewish people feel gaslit when they're told that this conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, and that leads them to overreact in the opposite direction and assume that all anti-Zionists must be antisemites who just don't want to admit they're antisemitic.

 

3) A lot of the pro-Israel position ultimately comes down to a combination of a very intentional and coordinated misinformation campaign in Jewish communities and cultural/societal pressure. Zionist advocacy groups spend a TON of money and effort making sure that their version of history is the only version that Jewish people learn. Essentially all of the top donors of my Jewish high school were Zionists, so the school was basically forced to teach that incredibly lopsided history. Growing up, I never learned that Israel was illegally building settlements in the West Bank. I never learned that Israel controlled essentially all of Gaza's resources. I literally never even learned that Palestine was recognized as a legally separate entity from Israel - Gaza and the West Bank were always framed as areas of Israel that were controlled by Palestinian groups and were the subject of controversy. That severe lack of education is what leads to the seemingly hypocritical reactions by pro-Israel people who have been traumatized by the deaths of Israeli civilians this weekend but have never spoken out about the deaths of Gazans. A lot of them literally don't know it's happening because Zionist advocacy groups work extremely hard to keep them in the dark. And what's worse, that lack of information is compounded by a lot of pressure within the community to be pro-Israel in order to be a "good Jew." I can't even count the number of extremely heated arguments I had with my own family members as I was unlearning the pro-Israel version of history. It's very difficult to talk about with friends and family because, like I said above, even people who are otherwise very progressive across all other social issues are staunchly pro-Israel due to their own lack of education on the subject. So the cycle never ends - the biased education keeps happening, and most people don't unlearn that education because the people who try often end up feeling a sense of guilt and betrayal to their families and larger culture. I know it can be frustrating to be told not to view the people who are clearly supporting bad things as bad people, but it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

Anyways, I don't really have a larger point with this post. To be honest, writing it up is probably just a form of therapy for me as I grapple with the stress and internal tension of being pro-Palestine myself while also not wanting to see people in my life that I care about being written off as irredeemable villains when I know why many of them feel the way they do (even if I disagree with it). I very likely won't be responding to any quotes of this (from either side) because my intention isn't to try to wade into the debate myself, but I think everybody on all sides could use a reminder that conflicts almost never get solved by one side refusing to understand what's going on in the minds of the other side.

Lovely post, thank you for writing.

[Specter]

Also you know what? I've now decided to abandon the constant, perpetual "yes, Hamas is awful" disclaimer in several of the ""discussions"" I've been having online. I've said it too many times, and how many (or how few) times I say it has no bearing on the broader context.

 

I've been seeing interviews of the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, who by the way represents Fatah - and the constant, incessant demands placed on him to condemn Hamas - something that he masterfully navigates, with patience and grace - is ridiculous, because HE DOES NOT REPRESENT OR SPEAK FOR HAMAS. It is a LITERAL oppositional party to Hamas????

 

This insidious burden placed upon the oppressed to constantly self-flagellate and apologize for the more radical, psychopathic reactionary factions that evolve from a shared goal is insane. 90% of the conversations he has been in is "WELL, DO YOU condemn Hamas?" as he once again explains that it is not something he flipped a switch on, and it is not even related to him or the people he represents.

 

Ironically, the language when speaking to Israeli government officials rarely veers into "do you regret the deaths of hundreds of Gazans", and if the conversation even goes there, a sort "hm yea sad but LOL war amirite" response usually placates the journalist asking that question. The bias could not be clearer, and you do not have to have a degree in communication, language, political science, international relations or whatever to see what is so brazenly going on here.

 

It is even more perverse when the Western media will not only never recognize or meaningfully cover the factions within the PL that have been carrying out tactical military operations, with mixed results - such a story is a harder emotional sell than murdered babies, presumably - and in the cruel instances that it does recognize other parties (such as this one), it wants them to prostate over for an entity that itself snatched power from said party. Enough.

 

So yeah. FREE Palestine. Once you Free Palestine, you also end the suffering of civilians across BOTH nations.