discussion Anti-Covid lockdown protests flare across China

[RockStarShit101]

lockdowns in 2022? that's crazy

[Katy V.!]

The genocide supporter going full "choose one of my fascists policies or you're killing people"

 

 

[karma police]

Pooh's "0 covid" policy was delusional from the beginning, but it's getting completely out of hand lately as it's more and more evident that even a "mighty leader" like him cannot control viral biology. And in Chinese society once you are caught being wrong you're loosing your "honor". And once you loose face you loose power. At this point it's a vicious circle and a reason they won't retract this idiotic policy.
 

 

[Communion]

45 minutes ago, Katy V.! said:

 fascists policies

Vaccines are effective. Vaccines are safe. Vaccines prevent death. Any denial of these basic factual statements is endemic of QAnon style conspiracy and really should result in ZTP style warming points. 

 

"You support genocide if you force authoritarian vaccines on people, you fascist! We will not be controlled!!!!"

 

I'm sorry bur this is honestly insane. 

[Espresso]

The angle of Chinese vaccine intake, and not just regarding elder preference, needs to be unpacked more in the global press. Imho. 

 

With inevitable resurgence because the originals have long since expired and even new doses of that same vaccine aren't effective enough against the newer strains.

 

Even if we follow the hypothetical of little to no lockdowns in Chinese cities, combine this factor with the poor ventilation covered earlier in this thread, and the numbers will get to levels where isolation would be required regardless of it being applied by an "authoritarian" government  

 

Is it a resistance to mRNA? Not willing or not affording mass alternatives like Novavax's done more recently? Or do we need to have conversations again on the patent battles? 

[Gui Blackout]

19 hours ago, karma police said:

Pooh's "0 covid" policy was delusional from the beginning, but it's getting completely out of hand lately as it's more and more evident that even a "mighty leader" like him cannot control viral biology. And in Chinese society once you are caught being wrong you're loosing your "honor". And once you loose face you loose power. At this point it's a vicious circle and a reason they won't retract this idiotic policy.
 

 

A dystopian fascist hellhole. This is insane.

[If U Seek Amy]

I think people comparing any form of rebellion in the United States with COVID measures no matter how small to the situation in China is just ignorant. People in the United States were generally free vaxxed or not. Sure, some employers began to require them, masks were often required or requested, quarantine was generally recommended but not forced in most situations, the idea floated around of forced vaccination, but it never came, there was social pressure, and more, but nothing even close to the scale China is facing. So cut the stupid argument that most people are hypocritical about this situation with China. Most of America who had a problem with safety measures were a bunch of babies throwing a temper tantrum over being asked to wear masks and social distance. China is literally forcing their people into insane conditions like camps, tanking the country, enforcing cruel punishments for non-compliance, and so much more. Yes, COVID can kill, but let's drop the narrative that this is some black death like plague already. Mask up, get vaccinated if you want to help yourself, social distance as needed, and if you're vulnerable do what you need to do to protect yourself. Enough with the delusion that we have to ensure not a soul ever gets sick again and as long as its happening we need to be in constant full lockdown. It's unrealistic. 

[Communion]

11 hours ago, Espresso said:

The angle of Chinese vaccine intake, and not just regarding elder preference, needs to be unpacked more in the global press. Imho. 

 

With inevitable resurgence because the originals have long since expired and even new doses of that same vaccine aren't effective enough against the newer strains.

 

Even if we follow the hypothetical of little to no lockdowns in Chinese cities, combine this factor with the poor ventilation covered earlier in this thread, and the numbers will get to levels where isolation would be required regardless of it being applied by an "authoritarian" government  

 

Is it a resistance to mRNA? Not willing or not affording mass alternatives like Novavax's done more recently? Or do we need to have conversations again on the patent battles? 

I think a focus on mRNA vaccines misses out on that even those most critical of ZC in China have the view that adopting mRNA vaccines will do nothing because the issue is not vaccine efficacy - even Sinovac during Hong Kong's opening was shown to emulate the average mRNA vaccine's efficacy by doing a regime of three shots instead of two.

 

The Chinese government also has the rights to BioNTech's mRNA tech still via Fosun so I'm not sure about having or not having the capability, especially when you had on the multiple non-foreign mRNA vaccines within China still in development. 

 

Hong Kong moved away from Zero COVID months earlier and the ample supply of mRNA vaccines they had didn't really prevent the kind of death and disruption to life that is the main source of hesitation for different local Chinese governments. mRNA vaccines, like all vaccines, need to be taken to be effective:

 

 

It won't matter to most eyes looking at the situation because most people suddenly watching are not interested In COVID in China as related to public health, but the likely conclusion to this is much less sexy than regime change. Already there are shifts to push for vaccine drives and local governments loosening restrictions:

 

 

I think there's going to be a lot of confusion (and..... disturbingly disappointment?) when many local governments and cities end up just going "OKAY WE'LL DITCH WEEKLY TESTING, BUT YOU HAVE TO FORCE MAMA AND BABA TO COME TO THE COMMUNITY CENTER AND GET VACCINATED" and the majority reaction is celebration and cheers. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Communion

[Chemist]

 

[mylicious]

On 11/28/2022 at 10:03 AM, Jack. said:

Wait so when the WEST protested they were extreme right wing nazis and now China is doing it and we’re clapping our hands screaming YAAAAS rise up against the tyranny!!

 

YALL  

different context.

[Jack.]

27 minutes ago, mylicious said:

different context.

Yeah the context was that they were far-right nazis, when in reality it was people who were losing their businesses and livelihoods, as well as their sanity. Protest and lockdowns were occurring in Australia even after 50% of the population were fully vaccinated. It’s not fair to label people as far right nazis for being at breaking point and then label the Chinese as inspiring. 

[ugo]

14 hours ago, Jack. said:

Yeah the context was that they were far-right nazis, when in reality it was people who were losing their businesses and livelihoods, as well as their sanity. Protest and lockdowns were occurring in Australia even after 50% of the population were fully vaccinated. It’s not fair to label people as far right nazis for being at breaking point and then label the Chinese as inspiring. 

Again different contexts 

[Kamil24]

11 minutes ago, Codex said:

How are there like 0 people in this thread with the ability to draw basic conclusions?... I'm actually on Communion's side for once. Lockdowns being pointless in 2022 does not equal far-right nazis and anti-vaxxers from 2020-2021 having any retroactive legitimacy. The point of 2020-2021 restrictions was to not kill millions of people pointlessly and collapse the healthcare system while we waited a few months for vaccines to develop. The restrictions did exactly what they were supposed to... and that was back before Omicron, when COVID was actually still lethal.

 

Do y'all not remember the overflowed hospitals in Italy from the beginning of the pandemic with 1000 deaths / day? False parallel.

The main and largest protests being mentioned here were in 2022 after Omicron emerged. The Canadian government introduced a vaccine mandate for truckers (that drive alone ) and they started the convoy - then had the GP join them. Anyone that actually attended these knows it wasn't far right nazis and anti-vaxxers - as I myself was vaccinated but against mandates. For the first time I really got to see the difference between what the media was showing, and what it was actually like in real life. 

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, Codex said:

? the Chinese vaccines are factually worse than mRNA.

 

? I'm confused. I never said otherwise. Of course mRNA vaccines are the most effective. I even say how Sinovac and other non-mRNA vaccines require more doses to be close to the efficacy of just 2 doses of most mRNA vaccines. 

 

The point of the criticisms I linked is that the media angle was less so "non-mRNA vaccines are less effective" and more so "Chinese vaccines don't work...at all". Lower efficacy than mRNA is a different quantifer than the claim many made in the media that framed China's vaccines as like kitchen sink garbage. 

 

The criticisms cite sinophobia for the latter's ridiculousness, and thats why many are annoyed at Western journos' focus on mRNA because it feels like a continuation of that racism. See: people emphasizing that Taiwan having an ample supply of mRNA vaccines didn't have a substantial impact because a vaccine has to be taken to be effective. A vaccine that sits on a shelf cause no one is signing up to get it has an efficacy of 0%. I think though we both agree on the importance of a vaccine mandate. 

 

It was mentioned in a thread I linked but many feel that Westerners have a complete misunderstanding of why people are protesting because they buy into the stereotype that the Chinese government is unapologetically brutal and that Chinese science is bad. When, in reality, it seems the Chinese science was very good and they're in this mess because the Chinese government was weak and timid on forcing people to get vaccinated. 

[Chemist]

 

Protests work!

[SmittenCake]

2 minutes ago, Chemist said:

 

Protests work!

[Communion]

 

Odd to see democracy work  so smoothly in a country compared to how it goes in places elsewhere.

[Genius1111]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-07/xi-s-swift-covid-retreat-shows-china-masses-they-have-real-power?leadSource=uverify wall

 

Xi's swift COVID retreat shows China masses they have real power

 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-07/most-chinese-may-end-up-with-covid-senior-health-adviser-warns?leadSource=uverify wall

 

60% of the population may get COVID in the 1st big wave.

 

Obviously people are cheering now because restrictions are loosened and they can at least travel domestically without undergoing testing. 

 

If this re-openinf is managed poorly, well, expect a lot of people to lose their family members and friends.

[Bosque]

So the Chinese government is loosening restrictions without a vaccine mandate? Cant believe the fascist CCP wants to literally kill millions of elderly people in their own country 

[Genius1111]

9 hours ago, Dephira said:

So the Chinese government is loosening restrictions without a vaccine mandate? Cant believe the fascist CCP wants to literally kill millions of elderly people in their own country 

 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/challenging-last-mile-chinas-vaccine-102912550.html

 

Health risk analysis firm Airfinity has predicted as many as 2.1 million Covid fatalities at current immunity levels.

...

 

An attempt in July to impose a jab mandate to access public spaces in the capital Beijing was swiftly abandoned after a strong backlash in a public traumatised by domestic vaccine scandals in recent years.

 

...

 

Under the zero-Covid policy, "the perceived benefit of vaccination is still quite low", Cowling told AFP.

"If you aren't likely to get infected... you may not benefit from vaccination."

Officials have also been hesitant to push too hard.

"There is always the fear of reprisals," Singapore-based infectious diseases expert Leong Hoe Nam said, noting a history of confrontations between patients' family members and doctors in China after deaths or medical complications.

Fixing the problem "requires the government to invest in building trust with the Chinese people", said Nancy Qian, a China policy expert at Northwestern University.

 

 

______________________

 

I think the central government's timetable was to loosen restrictions gradually in mid-2023, but since the Xinjiang fire and the subsequent massive protests, the government had little choice but to open up now, at a time when numbers are kind of high (by their standards). I forsee a lot of people are going to half regret it when the death toll rises dramatically and China retakes the dubious honor of most COVID deaths from the US.

[Communion]

On 12/8/2022 at 2:20 AM, Dephira said:

 loosening restrictions

 

 

 

 

Some of y'all are so mad that you didn't get any cheesy regime change that you're now giddily praying into existence tens of millions of dead Chinese people. 

[Bosque]

5 hours ago, Communion said:

 

 

Some of y'all are so mad that you didn't get any cheesy regime change that you're now giddily praying into existence tens of millions of dead Chinese people. 

That's funny because just a week ago you had this to say in response to a province loosening restrictions:

 

On 12/3/2022 at 4:44 AM, Communion said:

 

 

Odd to see democracy work  so smoothly in a country compared to how it goes in places elsewhere.

So you were suddenly praising the Chinese government's lifting of restrictions, when just a couple days beforehand you were up and down this thread accusing everyone who said "maybe total lockdown aren't fully necessary at this point" of literally wanting to kill millions of Chinese people:

On 11/28/2022 at 1:23 PM, Communion said:

So answer the question - HOW is China supposed to begin ending Zero COVID if you are claiming vaccine mandates are "draconian"?

 

How many Chinese people dying is acceptable to you? Cause that's the literal reality here about how to transition out of a system losing efficacy like ZC. Ending ZC without any dynamic exit plan that includes a vaccine mandate would result in up to 5 Million added deaths from COVID in China. How do you avoid that without vaccine mandates?

I guess if we are to trust your own words, we can add the Chinese loosening of Covid restrictions to the (surprisingly substantial) list of currently ongoing genocides that you support.

 

Or could your whiplash-inducing change of opinion have been because, instead of using logic and arguments to arrive at a conclusion, you typically reverse-engineer your arguments from the set ideological position that "your side" (in this case the Chinese government) is always correct and everyone else is evil, thereby forcing you to flip flop embarrassingly after aggressively calling everyone in this thread Sinophobic for taking the very stance that you now support just a week later? 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Dephira

[Communion]

6 hours ago, Dephira said:

 Chinese loosening of Covid restrictions

Western far-rightists hate Chinese people so much that they'll literally not read where it is stated that the Chineee government is indeed pushing vaccines despite their false claim that was just debunked. 

 

You so desperately want Chinese people to die that you have to claim somehow China is willing to let people die at the rate your sad sick country was despite literally no evidence of such. 

 

 

The irony being this little tirade:

6 hours ago, Dephira said:

Instead of using logic and arguments to arrive at a conclusion, you typically reverse-engineer your arguments from the set ideological position 

is basically how you have operated in this thread. 

 

> "DOWN WITH THE CCP!!! PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO DIE FROM COVID!!!! CHINAMEN BAD!!!!"

 

*China begins risky shift of air mitigation and increased vaccine usage to reduce the need of community-wide lockdowns to the positive response its population cause most Chinese citizens like their government and not a coup*

 

> "GENOCIDE! DICTATORSHIP! WINNIE THE POOH! STOP PRAISING THE EVIL CHINESE COMMUNIST REGIME!!!!! ANYONE PRAISING CHINA IS ACTUALLY FOR PEOPLE DYING!!!"

 

You so desperately want to be seen as a rational actor despite being a propagandist for a white supremacist view that, no matter what, China is always wrong.

 

This is you:

 

"wah wah Chinese people bad, regime change now!" We get it 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Communion