Headlock Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 6 minutes ago, Insanity said: I legit never heard anyone use the word birthing person or menstruator Exactly, because this is not a real issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Spirit Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 On 7/4/2022 at 11:26 PM, Trent W said: “Birthing people” and “Menstruators” sounds offensive af to women. Who the **** talks like this I’m sure if I used those terms with women irl I would get rightfully slapped It sounds dehumanizing and sounds like they are “birthing machines” Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted July 7, 2022 Share Posted July 7, 2022 To @Communion and anyone else knowledgeable: I know the obnoxious far-right and the obnoxious far-left have unfairly weaponised the term "biological woman," but why isn't "biological woman" a more "inclusive," "clinically-acceptable" term as opposed to "birthing person" or "menstruator"? Or maybe "genetic female" or "genetic woman" or "XX person" and "XY person." Just throwing ideas out there. ...Vin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Just now, Vin said: but why isn't "biological woman" a more "inclusive," "clinically-acceptable" term as opposed to "birthing person" or "menstruator"? Medical language expresses actions, not identities. See: "Egg donor". "Biological woman" is literally just... saying "cis woman" differently. The point is that there are people who experience the various biological needs and issues that cis women mainly experience but who are simply not cis women, like trans men. 99% of people who have made themselves mad over this are not actually interested in medical language. That's really not what this issue is about and I don't mean that pointedly, but it's clear that the issue with inclusive language is people having some kind of disliking - or discomfort with at best - being associated with trans people at large. People are rejecting at its core the idea of grouping cis people and trans people together. That's really all this comes down to. A discomfort at the idea that cis people and trans people can somehow be similar and overlapping. They say don't include trans men in medical terminology so that we still say "woman"... but then also say that "women" can ONLY be referring to cis women and that trans women's womanhood is somehow inherently different. Sure, let's say women, but that it also means trans women, and affirms that trans women are as equally inherently women as cis women, right? Right? "Stop erasing women by not using the word" and "only word the word for CIS women" can't both exist together in the same strand of logic that those who overlap in saying both are exhibiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Communion said: Medical language expresses actions, not identities. See: "Egg donor". "Biological woman" is literally just... saying "cis woman" differently. The point is that there are people who experience the various biological needs and issues that cis women mainly experience but who are simply not cis women, like trans men. One small step closer to being educated. Thanks. I will be parroting "medical language expresses actions, not identities" at some point. Something I never noticed. I'm taking your word for it that that is 100% true so if I get clocked in real-life conversation, I'm blaming you and the internet. 9 minutes ago, Communion said: People are rejecting at its core the idea of grouping cis people and trans people together. That's really all this comes down to. A discomfort at the idea that cis people and trans people can somehow be similar and overlapping. They say don't include trans men in medical terminology so that we still say "woman"... but then also say that "women" can ONLY be referring to cis women and that trans women's womanhood is somehow inherently different. Sure, let's say women, but that it also means trans women, and affirms that trans women are as equally inherently women as cis women, right? Right? "Stop erasing women by not using the word" and "only word the word for CIS women" can't both exist together in the same strand of logic that those who overlap in saying both are exhibiting. This, however, is a mess. The medical community has a big storm coming until they figure out the correct terminology. I have no doubt that it will sort itself out with time, but until then, the trans community will continue to be a political punching bag, unfortunately. ...Vin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Vin said: The medical community has a big storm coming until they figure out the correct terminology The issue is that much of this language has already been used in medical settings for years. Even ones - which is the point - where there has never been any intentional gendering or de-gendering. There are literally no other words people know for terms like "egg donor" or "sperm donor". Those are the terms. Much of this language has been slowly trickling into medical settings as far as back as 15-20 years, especially since much of it originates in the need for medical accuracy of intersex people. There have probably been lots of times where people have seen it but not taken issue with it because they assumed it was simply describing them and no one else. It didn't registered that "people who menstruate" or "those with testes" could ever, for example, describe anyone but cis women, the former, or cis men, the latter, to many people for many, many years. But now that trans rights are rightfully a thing, people suddenly feel that this language is no longer medically generic despite being so but now "pro-trans" and now an issue. Which circles back on what really the discomfort is... is it that people think it's medically Inaccurate - that cis women and trans men have that drastically different menstruation needs to where grouping them provides LESS utility and functionality - or is the issue an earnest discomfort at being grouped with and told that experiences are shared by people who are trans? Edited July 8, 2022 by Communion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Spirit Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 On 7/5/2022 at 1:23 PM, Luckitty said: do Americans actually say "birthing people"? it's honestly funny how republicans are planning and organizing while democrats are busy fighting with each other about woke terms like "latinx" and "birthing people" that's why republicans are gonna win 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Spirit Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 On 7/5/2022 at 8:31 PM, More Than A Melody said: You can say "women and other affected people" and be done with it. Being inclusive is important but it doesn't mean that you have to be offensive and "birthing people" is reductive and kind of gross. It's this simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Spirit Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 10 hours ago, iiswhoiis_max said: I don't know why you think this offends me in any kind of way. But seeing how defensive you get just confirms to me that this is hopeless topic. If you dont agree with it, they offend you and act like you are some kind of anti person. There is no room for discussion and I'm tired of it. Woke Twitter can do whatever they want. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeltwat Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 she probably just doesn't know the context in which people use those terms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomepossum Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 On 7/5/2022 at 9:39 PM, Communion said: Why can't any of you do anything but resort to pedantry? Sis, you made the argument that a medical journal and Planned Parenthood were one-in-the-same. You quite literally said "these two are the same thing YET.." to argue about how their language differs.. for some reason??. Except... it was literally explained to you why their language varies.. because they are different. What do you think can be productive from this if you have no intentions other than to troll? How have either abortion or trans rights upset you that you find it enjoyable to contribute to attacking either? 1. I didn't say that. 2. I asked you a question that you still haven't answered. You don't have to answer the question if you don't want to, but it's pretty ironic that you're accusing me of trolling when all you have done throughout this thread is hop from one irrelevant rant to another all to avoid having to take either trans rights OR abortion rights seriously by articulating whether or not you agree that it is transphobic to say abortion is a women's issue or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustHoran Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 PLEASE. Bette will NEVER be JK Rowling. Bette actually loves the LGBTQ+ community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superben Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 She is right, though. When you reduce people to just their reproductive functions, it's ******* offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slayne Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) "Birthing people" and "menstruators" are actually medically accurate terms when talking about pregnancy. Not all women menstruate and are able to give birth... ATRLers trying to be edgy and "AnTi-SjW" as usual but you just look stupid. Edited July 9, 2022 by John Slayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slayne Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 On 7/8/2022 at 12:56 AM, Vin said: To @Communion and anyone else knowledgeable: I know the obnoxious far-right and the obnoxious far-left have unfairly weaponised the term "biological woman," but why isn't "biological woman" a more "inclusive," "clinically-acceptable" term as opposed to "birthing person" or "menstruator"? Or maybe "genetic female" or "genetic woman" or "XX person" and "XY person." Just throwing ideas out there. ...Vin Because "biological woman" is not a medically accurate term for discussing pregnancy, periods, births, etc? My grandmother is a biological woman but obviously she won't be giving birth anytime soon. And there are infertile cis women too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Slayne Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Sure, most people in regular conversations won't say "birthing people" or "menstruators". But in medical contexts and research those terms are important because "women" and "birthing people" are two different groups with some overlap, but they are not the same. Conservatives just use that to stir up hatred towards trans people and y'all fall for it because you have no common sense to realise that this isn't just political correctness, it's scientific accuracy. Old and infertile cis women can't give birth too so that's why there a specific term for people who can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobility Mary Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 From people trying to paint fighting for women's rights as some far-right rhetoric under the disguise of "progressiveness" to people posting gifs of the girlfriend-beater Michael Fessbender, this thread is a nightmare Also let me not even get into the fact that pregnancy would be horrible for gender dysphoria in trans men and that they don't like to be constantly reminded of the fact that they have a uterus. I know how aggressive the tucute politics are so let me leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headlock Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 5 hours ago, Mobility Mary said: From people trying to paint fighting for women's rights as some far-right rhetoric How is attacking the trans community fighting for women’s rights? That’s the thing, this is not about women’s rights, this is not about anything at all. It is a made up issue created by right-wing polemics to scare cis women into believing the trans community and their allies are at war with them. Meanwhile, the actual people responsible for taking away women’s rights, conservatives, go about their business having killed two birds with one stone. 5 hours ago, Mobility Mary said: Also let me not even get into the fact that pregnancy would be horrible for gender dysphoria in trans men and that they don't like to be constantly reminded of the fact that they have a uterus. I know how aggressive the tucute politics are so let me leave it at that. This is an incredibly generalized assumption that both assumes all trans peoples’ dysphorias are the same and that they would not need the services of healthcare providers regardless. Because once again, this is literally just about terms used in a medical setting. Trans men aren’t pushing to be called these terms in passing in everyday life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobility Mary Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 11 minutes ago, Headlock said: How is attacking the trans community fighting for women’s rights? That’s the thing, this is not about women’s rights, this is not about anything at all. It is a made up issue created by right-wing polemics to scare cis women into believing the trans community and their allies are at war with them. Meanwhile, the actual people responsible for taking away women’s rights, conservatives, go about their business having killed two birds with one stone. This is an incredibly generalized assumption that both assumes all trans peoples’ dysphorias are the same and that they would not need the services of healthcare providers regardless. Because once again, this is literally just about terms used in a medical setting. Trans men aren’t pushing to be called these terms in passing in everyday life Calling women women instead of birthing individuals is now transphobic? Yeah no lol. People who treat every sort of disagreement as bigotry and far right rethoric need to take a hard look in the mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headlock Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, Mobility Mary said: Calling women women instead of birthing individuals is now transphobic? Yeah no lol. People who treat every sort of disagreement as bigotry and far right rethoric need to take a hard look in the mirror. Are you purposefully being obtuse or is your reading comprehension that bad Cis women are not the only people who need reproductive care. Using inclusive terms for specific needs in medical settings is not telling people to not call cis women “women” I suggest you take up your misguided anger towards the cis women physicians who advocate for this terminology in their clinical and medical facilities. I bolded the parts that you seem to have missed last time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobility Mary Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 21 minutes ago, Headlock said: Are you purposefully being obtuse or is your reading comprehension that bad Cis women are not the only people who need reproductive care. Using inclusive terms for specific needs in medical settings is not telling people to not call cis women “women” I suggest you take up your misguided anger towards the cis women physicians who advocate for this terminology in their clinical and medical facilities. I bolded the parts that you seem to have missed last time I suggest that you take your identity politics to Tumblr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bey Admired Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 48 minutes ago, Mobility Mary said: Calling women women instead of birthing individuals is now transphobic? Yeah no lol. People who treat every sort of disagreement as bigotry and far right rethoric need to take a hard look in the mirror. This. It’s also not transphobic to believe that trans women should not compete against cis women in sports. I feel like there are certain values that everyone on the left can coalesce around: Respect, dignity, safety, and freedom. Trans people deserve all of those things. Trans women are women. But we also have to accept biological reality. Women are women, not “birthing people”. And cis women should only compete against other cis women in professional sports in the interest of fairness. I believe trans people should be able to play professional sport, of course I do. Do I know the solution to this? No, I do not. And I’m happy to admit that. But I believe here is an opportunity for real solutions to be put forth and for progress to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bey Admired Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 6 hours ago, Mobility Mary said: From people trying to paint fighting for women's rights as some far-right rhetoric under the disguise of "progressiveness" to people posting gifs of the girlfriend-beater Michael Fessbender, this thread is a nightmare Also let me not even get into the fact that pregnancy would be horrible for gender dysphoria in trans men and that they don't like to be constantly reminded of the fact that they have a uterus. I know how aggressive the tucute politics are so let me leave it at that. The weird thing is I’m a progressive and a socialist as a matter of fact. I support trans people and have trans people in my life who I love and respect. But I have been called a far-right bigot, transphobic *******, and a TERF on here for believing that women should be called women and that trans women should not compete against cis women in sport. It’s ludicrous. You’re entitled to disagree, but we all need to stop the name-calling as it doesn’t get us anywhere and it’s extremely counterproductive to progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headlock Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Mobility Mary said: I suggest that you take your identity politics to Tumblr Given your post history, I suggest you take your reactionary comments to 4chan On 6/21/2022 at 4:09 PM, Mobility Mary said: Only for me and only so I can talk **** about an identity that rhymes with the word "winery" On 6/19/2022 at 2:25 PM, Mobility Mary said: Small, but loud group of people are constanly playing Oppression Olympics and coming up with new microidentities accompanied by 200 self-diagnosed disorders which makes us all look ridiculous and it's an opportunity that all bigots have been waiting for so they can voice their hatred towards us. Tho to be fair to Hillary, it seems like she kind of wanted to ignore that part of the question. On 6/24/2022 at 1:40 PM, Mobility Mary said: Please don't call gay men non binaries luv On 6/17/2022 at 8:24 AM, Mobility Mary said: Period. The worst thing is that it is mostly used by made up microidentities who never had that word used againt them before and then they go out of their way to explain to gay men why they should be fine with the word even tho they are the type of people to play victims 24/7. On 6/12/2022 at 11:30 AM, Mobility Mary said: God the way there are now literally hundreds of flags for different microidentities or whatever they are called. Cringe people trying too hard to be unique and oppressed. The way y’all always give yourselves away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headlock Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Bey Admired said: This. It’s also not transphobic to believe that trans women should not compete against cis women in sports. I feel like there are certain values that everyone on the left can coalesce around: Respect, dignity, safety, and freedom. Trans people deserve all of those things. Trans women are women. But we also have to accept biological reality. Women are women, not “birthing people”. And cis women should only compete against other cis women in professional sports in the interest of fairness. I believe trans people should be able to play professional sport, of course I do. Do I know the solution to this? No, I do not. And I’m happy to admit that. But I believe here is an opportunity for real solutions to be put forth and for progress to be made. 55 minutes ago, Bey Admired said: The weird thing is I’m a progressive and a socialist as a matter of fact. I support trans people and have trans people in my life who I love and respect. But I have been called a far-right bigot, transphobic *******, and a TERF on here for believing that women should be called women and that trans women should not compete against cis women in sport. It’s ludicrous. You’re entitled to disagree, but we all need to stop the name-calling as it doesn’t get us anywhere and it’s extremely counterproductive to progress. The way this issue has nothing to do with trans women and yet your TERF brain couldn’t help but bring them up Edited July 9, 2022 by Headlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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