base talk Billboard's Greatest Pop Stars of the 21st Century | #2 Taylor Swift

[Kalmanta]

13 minutes ago, kimberly said:

based on their criteria, it is a mix of both.

 

I still think it'll be Taylor at #1, mainly due to recency bias. While her "debut" might be in 2006, Taylor Swift's pop iconography only kicked in at the beginning of Red era, in 2012.

 

Whereas Beyoncé has been a dominant force the entire time. It's difficult to ignore that but I'm not surprised by the mental gymnastics done here to minimize that massive gap.

Taylor had an insane 2009 and topped the charts even one year earlier with Fearless. And last year we've also not seen an artist being this ubiquitous since the 80s. Taylor will get the #1 spot, but it's closer than some might expect.

[CherryBay]

Probably Taylor

Should be Beyonce

[whiteferrari]

4 minutes ago, CherryBay said:

Probably Taylor

Should be Beyonce

 

[SwiftLover]

Caresha 

 

 

[Into The Void]

Who cares about a dumb list Billboard came up with 

[kimberly]

1 hour ago, Kalmanta said:

Taylor had an insane 2009 and topped the charts even one year earlier with Fearless. And last year we've also not seen an artist being this ubiquitous since the 80s. Taylor will get the #1 spot, but it's closer than some might expect.

while "You Belong With Me" and "Love Story" are big hits, they are her first two. Speak Now was mostly a dud, failing to send anything into the pop radio Top 10. her foray into the pop sphere didn't really kick off until she collaborated with Max Martin on "We're Never Getting Back Together." that's when she even became a pop star, to begin with.

 

Beyoncé is the first-ever woman to do a stadium tour. Changed music release day to Friday. Visual albums. Conquered Pop, Rhythmic, R&B, AC and even found success in Country and Rock. these are not minor talking points. there would be no Taylor Swift without Beyoncé — she herself says this.

 

but yes, I do feel like Billboard will give this to Taylor, because her peak is more recent and sales figures unmatched.

[byzantium]

Based on influence and impact on the music industry from a sonic, artistic, and business standpoint, it should be Taylor.  But billboard will probably give it to Beyonce. 

[byzantium]

3 hours ago, kimberly said:

I still think it'll be Taylor at #1, mainly due to recency bias. While her "debut" might be in 2006, Taylor Swift's pop iconography only kicked in at the beginning of Red era, in 2012.

I feel like you would need to not be from the US to be making this statement.  She was absolutely a staple of pop culture and a household name by 2009 in the US ( and Canada, much of Asia, Australia etc) 

Edited November 20 by byzantium

[theboyismine]

13 minutes ago, byzantium said:

 influence impact Taylor.  

[byzantium]

Just now, theboyismine said:

Seethe more   

[kimberly]

1 minute ago, byzantium said:

I feel like you would need to not be from the US to be making this statement.  She was absolutely a staple of pop culture by 2009.  

for young girls, maybe.

 

the main thing she did that permeated every level of pop culture that year wasn't even her own doing — and I've already acknowledged her two big hits from that year. that was a great breakthrough era for her.

 

but when we think of Taylor Swift the pop icon & business mogul, the one that's dominating today, the one that reaches beyond her core demographic — 2012 is the beginning of her "greatest pop stardom" story. (as opposed to, I would say, 2003 for Beyoncé — when she goes solo and dominates with back-to-back hits.)

 

kinda referring to this, really, as someone shared earlier — the first time they each were honored with this:

 

Quote

 

According to Billboard's own Greatest Pop Stars of each year:

 

Taylor:

Honorable Mention in 2008

Honorable Mention in 2009

Honorable Mention in 2012

Greatest Pop Star of 2015

 

Beyoncé:

Honorable Mention in 2001 (as Destiny's Child)

Greatest Pop Star of 2003

 

[byzantium]

10 minutes ago, kimberly said:

for young girls, maybe.

 

the main thing she did that permeated every level of pop culture that year wasn't even her own doing — and I've already acknowledged her two big hits from that year. that was a great breakthrough era for her.

 

but when we think of Taylor Swift the pop icon & business mogul, the one that's dominating today, the one that reaches beyond her core demographic — 2012 is the beginning of her "greatest pop stardom" story. (as opposed to, I would say, 2003 for Beyoncé — when she goes solo and dominates with back-to-back hits.)

 

kinda referring to this, really, as someone shared earlier — the first time they each were honored with this:

 

 

So you are just making an argument that neither of them really became pop stars until about 6 years into their careers.  At least you are consistent.  Personally I would put it at both of their second albums but sure, whatever.  

Edited November 20 by byzantium

[slw84]

I think the Eras tour will put Taylor over the edge in terms of touring stats.

I think if they can put Beyonce, Drake and Rihanna in the top 5 then they can put Taylor at #1 and back it up without needing to think about any backlash.

 

Taylor misses with the vocals and performance skills but covers her bases for everything else.

[sasashite]

14 hours ago, kimberly said:

for young girls, maybe.

 

the main thing she did that permeated every level of pop culture that year wasn't even her own doing — and I've already acknowledged her two big hits from that year. that was a great breakthrough era for her.

 

but when we think of Taylor Swift the pop icon & business mogul, the one that's dominating today, the one that reaches beyond her core demographic — 2012 is the beginning of her "greatest pop stardom" story. (as opposed to, I would say, 2003 for Beyoncé — when she goes solo and dominates with back-to-back hits.)

 

kinda referring to this, really, as someone shared earlier — the first time they each were honored with this:

 

 

The fact that they included Taylor as an honorable mention in 2008 and 2009 demonstrates that they recognized her as a pop star before the Red era.

[einando]

It should be Beyoncé because she has been dominant since day one of the 21st century, but it'll be Taylor.

[Moonlight Nation]

20 hours ago, slw84 said:

Taylor misses with the vocals and performance skills but covers her bases for everything else.

Vocals and performance skills being two crucial factors in determining a popstar's greatness.  Arguably the bare minimum, even if mainly excelling on one field (Britney Spears in performance skills or Kelly Clarkson on vocals, for example).

 

I'd argue popstar Taylor Swift is comfortably her weakest facet, which would make her taking the top honour rather ironic. She was a wonderful country artist and her singer-songwriter moments both musically and performance-wise are often her finest. But with the exception of a few stand-out moments ("Red" 's pop singles, "Blank Space", "Style", "Cruel Summer", and several "Lover" deep cuts) I feel she fundamentally misunderstands what pop greatness should be, with any 'fierce pop girl' attempts ("Bad Blood" MV, everything about "Look What You Made Me Do", her bizarre stage presence) being inauthentic and extremely try-hard. I feel she struggles playing to her strengths when doing pop, leading to inconsistent results which hardly belong in the same conversation as others ranked below her, let alone Beyoncé.

 

Won't argue against her commercial success and impressive business acumen, but Beyoncé covers similar bases while having a longer career (literally scoring #1s from 2000 all the way to 2024) and having had significantly more hurdles to get to this stage.

 

Each to their own, though.

 

[sasashite]

4 hours ago, Moonlight Nation said:

Vocals and performance skills being two crucial factors in determining a popstar's greatness.  Arguably the bare minimum, even if mainly excelling on one field (Britney Spears in performance skills or Kelly Clarkson on vocals, for example).

 

I'd argue popstar Taylor Swift is comfortably her weakest facet, which would make her taking the top honour rather ironic. She was a wonderful country artist and her singer-songwriter moments both musically and performance-wise are often her finest. But with the exception of a few stand-out moments ("Red" 's pop singles, "Blank Space", "Style", "Cruel Summer", and several "Lover" deep cuts) I feel she fundamentally misunderstands what pop greatness should be, with any 'fierce pop girl' attempts ("Bad Blood" MV, everything about "Look What You Made Me Do", her bizarre stage presence) being inauthentic and extremely try-hard. I feel she struggles playing to her strengths when doing pop, leading to inconsistent results which hardly belong in the same conversation as others ranked below her, let alone Beyoncé.

 

Won't argue against her commercial success and impressive business acumen, but Beyoncé covers similar bases while having a longer career (literally scoring #1s from 2000 all the way to 2024) and having had significantly more hurdles to get to this stage.

 

Each to their own, though.

 

The problem with some pop fans (often Taylor Swift haters) is that they associate pop stardom solely with fierceness and sex appeal.

The Beatles are the greatest pop stars of all time and they were nothing like that.

 

Taylor Swift is more popular, more famous, more discussed, more omnipresent, more powerful than Beyoncé. She deserves the #1 spot.

[Ayanaa]

After the Era's tour I don't see how they possibly could put Beyonce at #1. If they do they are heavily biased 

[Meloetta Carey]

On 11/22/2024 at 8:44 AM, sasashite said:

The problem with some pop fans (often Taylor Swift haters) is that they associate pop stardom solely with fierceness and sex appeal.

The Beatles are the greatest pop stars of all time and they were nothing like that.

 

Taylor Swift is more popular, more famous, more discussed, more omnipresent, more powerful than Beyoncé. She deserves the #1 spot.

The Beatles are more of a rock band and predate the pop star mould, which was really defined with the MTV darlings like Michael & Janet, Madonna, George Michael, Prince, and Whitney. Even the rappers on this list are there because they fit that mould quite well---it's the criteria that brings the whole list and pop stardom as an idea together. Maybe Taylor kind of subverting or parodying that by not having any undeniable performance talent yet being really successful at it gives her the #1 spot. Maybe it doesn't.

I also wouldn't say that Taylor is more omnipresent (no one really is), famous, or even more powerful. You can really avoid all of her music if you don't want to hear it. That's not even shade that's just how media works these days. She just has the biggest and most lucrative base, which makes her the biggest but not necessarily the best.

Beyoncé's influence is more widespread and has defined 21st century (pop) stardom whether that's album release dates, visual albums, or even how to stay mysterious in modern times with surprise drops and intense privacy. Even Taylor has taken a few notes from that model with Reputation (it's kind of Lemonade-coded), Folkmore (double surprise drop), and doing less interviews. I think that's more than enough to put her at #1 and she still has a good deal of commercial success from the 00s to today, even if she's not as commercially successful as the others.  

[MissedTheTrain]

On 11/21/2024 at 2:20 PM, Moonlight Nation said:

Vocals and performance skills being two crucial factors in determining a popstar's greatness.  Arguably the bare minimum, even if mainly excelling on one field (Britney Spears in performance skills or Kelly Clarkson on vocals, for example).

 

I'd argue popstar Taylor Swift is comfortably her weakest facet, which would make her taking the top honour rather ironic. She was a wonderful country artist and her singer-songwriter moments both musically and performance-wise are often her finest. But with the exception of a few stand-out moments ("Red" 's pop singles, "Blank Space", "Style", "Cruel Summer", and several "Lover" deep cuts) I feel she fundamentally misunderstands what pop greatness should be, with any 'fierce pop girl' attempts ("Bad Blood" MV, everything about "Look What You Made Me Do", her bizarre stage presence) being inauthentic and extremely try-hard. I feel she struggles playing to her strengths when doing pop, leading to inconsistent results which hardly belong in the same conversation as others ranked below her, let alone Beyoncé.

 

Won't argue against her commercial success and impressive business acumen, but Beyoncé covers similar bases while having a longer career (literally scoring #1s from 2000 all the way to 2024) and having had significantly more hurdles to get to this stage.

 

Each to their own, though.

 

 

Do we think Billboard is ranking them by and thinking of "pop star" so strictly though?  Or just ranking them as superstar music artists that exist in pop culture?  I think Billboard is probably going to be taking most of Taylor's discography into account, since she's been into the Pop realm since 2009 (Speak Now didn't do a lot on Pop, true, but her overall presence, fanbase and album sales have been big since then across the board).

 

 

[slw84]

On 11/20/2024 at 3:49 PM, Into The Void said:

Who cares about a dumb list Billboard came up with 

When your faves don't make the list or rank low on the last teas...

33 pages in...

I think some  people care.

 

[slw84]

On 11/24/2024 at 3:27 AM, Ayanaa said:

After the Era's tour I don't see how they possibly could put Beyonce at #1. If they do they are heavily biased 

I think the Eras tour sealed the deal, and even if it were close, that moment took her over the edge. I still don't think it should be that close because Taylor has dominated pop culture and has been influential and impactful in recent years.

 

I have a feeling Beyonce, Rihanna and Drake being placed in the top 5 will probably tee up Taylor being #1 without backlash.

TBH without 1999 Britney should still have ranked top 5 but Bieber also needs to be there. 

 

When Beyonce wasn't having huge hits the press would put out comments like...she's bigger than being a popstar...it's more about music as a whole (fair points). taylor has consistently gotten bigger as a popstar and avoid 99% of the pitfalls of her predecessors and is a self-made billionaire and even her flop eras are still those girls.

 

 

 

 

[Into The Void]

22 minutes ago, slw84 said:

When your faves don't make the list or rank low on the last teas...

33 pages in...

I think some  people care.

 

 

Dont even know who's on this list

[slw84]

3 hours ago, Into The Void said:

Dont even know who's on this list

A wonderful argument If I've ever seen one...

 

But yes, Taylor being #2 after the Eras well...era would be odd but either way Top 2 is great.

[Into The Void]

1 hour ago, slw84 said:

A wonderful argument If I've ever seen one...

 

But yes, Taylor being #2 after the Eras well...era would be odd but either way Top 2 is great.

i was not expecting any faves to appear on this list in the first place lol