news Democrats prepare to go to war against third party candidates

[Bloo]

6 hours ago, Mastamaind said:

A vote for a third party is a vote that could have gone to the democrats, the only vote that can rival republicans, and in that case, one vote in favor of the fascists. Not voting is one vote that could have rivaled republicans, so one vote in favor of them.

 

It's not illogical, it's simple math. The Democratic Party is the only party that can rival republicans, any vote not to them is a vote in favor of those fascists.

 

I really wish I could give you more reasons than to beat POS Trump however, sadly, it has come to this. The most important reason to vote democrat is to beat that POS and that's all there's to it.

Not to be that person, but this talking point is so generic and commonplace that it will win over nobody. If people feel morally and ethically opposed to voting for someone sending bombs to a country committing genocide, telling them, "Well the other guy would also support genocide so you may as well vote for Biden," is not compelling. People have legitimate criticisms and issues with Biden. I completely understand why people want to vote for Joe Biden out of fear. I think it's unfortunate that that's the primary driver for so many people to vote that way—I think Democracy is only really Democracy if people are voting based on hope that they'll be represented. But, I get the circumstances and why people will make that choice. But, you will never reach people who feel differently by lecturing to them by repeating the more exhausted and widespread rhetoric.

 

More importantly, defaulting to vote shaming is not helpful in terms of making the Democratic Party more successful at winning over undecided voters. Currently, it is on the Democrats to make themselves a viable political alternative to Trump rather than trying to imitate his immigration policy and supporting genocide while saying Trump would do the same thing if elected.

[Communion]

6 hours ago, Mastamaind said:

A vote for a third party is a vote that could have gone to the democrats

According to who? Again, it's just bad political science at this point. That 3rd parties are so maligned by big corporate interests and actively under attack by Dems and the GOP *and yet people continually still vote for them* suggests these voters are motivated by ideology. These voters were never yours to have if you simply do not and do no want to meet them ideologically.

 

Biden knew that in 2020, given his pretending to move to the left on issues. Why would these some ideological voters not return to the margins and go back to voting 3rd party when you yourself Biden has achieved nothing that he promised to, and even now is actively moving to the right *away* from these voters?

 

Why would voters chase Biden? Candidates largely earn votes through persuasion and policy. Get a grip now.

Edited March 19 by Communion

[Mastamaind]

6 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

What makes you think POS Biden would be any better once he no longer has to worry about the burden of re-election? Israel getting away with a full genocide, intent and all, completely aligns with Biden's ideology as he's shown throughout his decades-long career. He's a bloodthirsty maniac, and he has a history of wanting more Arab blood spilled than any pre-Netanyahu Israeli leader.

 

 

 

Oh dude, I guess you didn't check any of the articles that backed why Trump Turd would be worse since you took like 5 minutes to respond without addressing them but I'm aware of Biden's past position about Israel, that was 1982. This is Trump and co. in 2024:

 

And I'll quote the articles for you. From Vox (https://www.vox.com/policy/24072983/biden-trump-palestinians-israel-gaza-policy-different):

 

Trump Senior Advisor:

 

"Chief among these deputies was son-in-law Jared Kushner. In a public appearance at Harvard in February, he expressed outright opposition to Biden's current push for a Palestinian state as part of any postwar settlement.

“Giving them a Palestinian state is basically a reinforcement of, ‘We're going to reward you for bad actions,’” Kushner said. “You have to show terrorists that they will not be tolerated, that we will take strong action.”"

 

Trump appointed ambassador to Israel:

 

"Trump's ambassador to Israel, noted hardliner David Friedman, went even further — accusing the Biden team of “hampering the war effort" by pressuring Israel to limit the civilian casualty toll of its bombing campaign. “At no time [while I was ambassador] did the United States put any handcuffs or limitations on Israel's ability to respond,” he added in an interview with Israel's Channel 12 news station."

 

Trump's special envoy for Middle East policy:

 

"And Jason Greenblatt, Trump's special envoy for Middle East policy, blasted the Biden administration's decision to impose sanctions on violent West Bank settlers as “wrong and deceptive.” He also claimed to be “shocked that the State Department was investigating the possibility of declaring an independent Palestinian state,” a decision he termed “terribly harmful and dangerous.”"

 

From the Slate article (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/03/trump-on-gaza-war-israel-comments-not-what-they-seem.html):

 

Trump itself:

 

"[Trump] was not urging Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to stop the bombing or withdraw Israeli troops. Quite the contrary: Trump was prodding him to intensify and accelerate the military campaign, “to finish it up and do it quickly.”

He lambasted President Biden not for going easy on Israel, as leftist critics charge, but for applying pressure on Israel at all. “Biden is so bad for Israel,” Trump said.""

 

So yeah 2024 and you have proof that Trump Turd would be way more terrible for Palestine but somehow Biden's worse? You know what else Biden said in the 80s? This, and I quote this Mother Jones article (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/05/joe-bidens-marijuana-legalization/):

 

"He went on to say that legalizing “synthetically produced, mind-altering drugs or cocaine or heroin or marijuana" would, in fact, take the profit motive out of the drug trade and, if not eliminate, significantly reduce the violence associated with it. But doing so would be a “significant moral hurdle" for the government, he said, because unlike the case with alcohol, “you cannot be a recreational user" of “certain [other] drugs.” 

“Is it proper and legitimate for a government to take an action which we know expressly will lead to the mental and physical demise of an individual?” Biden asked. “I say no.”"

 

Which lead to his infamous 1994 crime bill that expanded the War on Drugs, however what does he do in 2022?

 

Biden pardons thousands for ‘simple possession' of marijuana: https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-government-and-politics-2d5e3d9e2cfbbbe3ee114536738894a8

 

And in 2023: 

 

Biden pardons thousands convicted of marijuana charges on federal lands and in Washington: https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64

 

So you quoting him saying something in 1982 doesn't mean that much when the man is totally capable of changing/reverting his position and responding to pressure without an electoral factor.

 

Biden is already responding to pressure about the Palestine genocide as he recently voiced support of a two-state solution in the State of the Union:

 

“The only real solution,” Biden said, "is a two-state solution", as Democrats rose for a standing ovation.

 

Biden is working in a (albeit temporal) ceasefire:

 

More recently, Biden has since adopted a more critical tone against Netanyahu and has worked behind the scenes to secure a ceasefire agreement. “I've been working non-stop to establish an immediate ceasefire that would last for six weeks to get all the prisoners released,” Biden said Thursday.

 

https://time.com/6898685/biden-israel-pressure-gaza-aid-pier-in-state-of-the-union/

 

Not the best but it's progress, he's responding to pressure, it's something. Do you know what you would get with Trump Turd? Nothing. That's right. Absolutely nothing, and not only that, fascism that would threaten your life and the rest of the world's.

 

Again, like I really don't get this virtue signaling and moral high ground where you condemn a candidate for doing something bad but somehow you're doing everything to make another candidate that would make things worse win, like:

 

"Oh f*ck Genocide Joe!, let's choose "Genocide Faster Trump!". What the f*ck?

 

 

Edited March 19 by Mastamaind

[Mastamaind]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

According to who? Again, it's just bad political science at this point. That 3rd parties are so maligned by big corporate interests and actively under attack by Dems and the GOP *and yet people continually still vote for them* suggests these voters are motivated by ideology. These voters were never yours to have if you simply do not and do no want to meet them ideologically.

 

Biden knew that in 2020, given his pretending to move to the left on issues. Why would these some ideological voters not return to the margins and go back to voting 3rd party when you yourself Biden has achieved nothing that he promised to, and even now is actively moving to the right *away* from these voters?

 

Why would voters chase Biden? Candidates largely earn votes through persuasion and policy. Get a grip now.

According to this research:

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/06/30/behind-bidens-2020-victory/

 

Literally in my next post to the one you just replied, I'll quote it for you:

 

"Overall, third-party 2016 voters who turned out in 2020 voted 53%-36% for Biden over Trump, with 10% opting for a third-party candidate."

 

I really understand your frustration, it's been really horrible to see what's been happening with Palestine but we're in a dire situation. So if you wanna call Biden "Genocide Joe", it's between "Genocide Joe" and "Genocide Faster Trump". So what is it?

[ClashAndBurn]

There is no evidence that any of the nice things Biden says about Palestine and a two-state solution are anything other than platitudes. Biden is literally ideologically inclined towards Israeli supremacy and has been his entire career.  

 

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, Mastamaind said:

According to this research:

You've now had multiple members tell you that your posts are not providing any actual argument.

 

I literally responded to your referencing of 3rd party voters going down from 2016 to 2020:

2 hours ago, Communion said:

Biden knew that in 2020, given his pretending to move to the left on issues. Why would these same ideological voters not return to the margins and go back to voting 3rd party when you yourself acknowledge Biden has achieved nothing that he promised to, and even now is actively moving to the right *away* from these voters?

 

Why would voters chase Biden? Candidates largely earn votes through persuasion and policy. Get a grip now.

I'm just confused who you think you're going to convince. You yourself are just as much of an ideologue as anyone else. 

The only thing I can remember from your posts in any previous interaction is you defending the mistreatment of Muslims in Europe because "Islam is a terrorist ideology".

Am I meant to think you are coming from a sincere and progressive space when telling me it's a necessary evil to vote for someone aiding in bombing Gaza? 

Edited March 19 by Communion

[Mastamaind]

24 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

There is no evidence that any of the nice things Biden says about Palestine and a two-state solution are anything other than platitudes. Biden is literally ideologically inclined towards Israeli supremacy and has been his entire career.  

 

Your reply: "I'll ignore everything you said, even though you provided extensive backing of your arguments. I'm right, you're wrong. "

 

I think I'm done with you, I proved you wrong two times but you're unwilling to listen, alright then, I hope that in the worst case scenario and in our doom (the US and the world's) you feel at ease with yourself that you made the right choice.

Edited March 19 by Mastamaind

[ClashAndBurn]

19 minutes ago, Mastamaind said:

Your reply: "I'll ignore everything you said, even though you provided extensive backing of your arguments. I'm right, you're wrong. "

 

I think I'm done with you, I proved you wrong two times but you're unwilling to listen, alright then, I hope that in the worst case scenario and in our doom (the US and the world's) you feel at ease with yourself that you made the right choice.

He can call for a two state solution all he wants. Fact of the matter is, Israel doesn't want it to happen, so it's not going to happen. And once Biden gets re-elected, he genuinely doesn't have to care about even pretending to care anymore. And frankly there is no reason to trust Biden on his word, because he's shown himself to be untrustworthy. He undermined Obama and Hillary on the West Bank statements and reassured Bibi that he had his back.

[superben]

Why are the Democrats acting so high and mighty?  

 

People vote for who they want. They are not "spoilers". 

[Aston Martin]

12 hours ago, Mastamaind said:

So if you wanna call Biden "Genocide Joe", it's between "Genocide Joe" and "Genocide Faster Trump". So what is it?

The problem with this is that a lot of people who are rightfully upset with what's going on in Gaza will see this, realize that it's genocide either way, and just stay home. Voter suppression usually benefits Republicans (especially down ballot) so Biden and co need to really do everything possible to appeal to those voters. And that's his responsibility. Not the voters. His. 
 

Also an individual vote for President only carries any weight in the swing states. I live in one of the reddest states in the US (and I hate it here but don't have the resources to move). Whether I vote for Biden, stay home, or leave the top of the ticket blank (but vote down ballot), Trump wins my state. 

[Thesedays]

On 3/16/2024 at 10:50 PM, woohoo said:

Exactly. I'm voting for Biden because I'm worried about Thomas and Alito retiring under Trump then we're screwed with 5 semi young conservative Supreme Court justices for 30 years. This is why republicans win because the majority of democrats and leftist and progressives don't play the long game. They want it right here and right now. Zero patience. Until some of the moderate dem boomers and Republican boomers die off this is what we're stuck with, or you know, more of us come to the polls instead of complaining on forums and tiktok. It's gotten better but not even near where we need to be turnout wise. 

Wait till you find out the politics of Hakeem Jeffries, Pete Buttigieg, and other non-boomer Dems. Get ready for a shock if you think the issue here is age.

[Thesedays]

On 3/16/2024 at 11:11 PM, woohoo said:

They had a supermajority for like 6 weeks who are you kidding. Agree on RGB but trump also got 2 more nominees before her passing. Again, republicans as crazy and unhinged as they are, are totally unify when they need too. We however, have spilt into about 4 subgroups on the left who cannot fathom aligning with a side that doesn't suit our needs 100%. Purity test politics will be the end of us. 

I think it's scary how obtuse US liberals are. Like, yeah, Republicans are united because, GUESS WHAT, they REPRESENT THEIR BASE.

 

Most Republicans are pro-gun, religious freaks, pro-Israel, anti-abortion, anti-minority rights. And guess what? That's also what the politicians they elect believe in.

 

Now, according to polls, the overwhelming majority of Dems want universal healthcare, are pro-Palestine, and are in favor of free college... now tell me, which Dem politician exactly holds those views? A negligible amount of them.

Edited March 20 by Thesedays

[Fleahive]

Whatever happened to the green party? Gen z is more pro environment than any generation, and clearly doesn't want to vote between Biden and trump. That seems like the perfect party to start promoting instead of a random independent. 

[mig123]

Third party ? Is there such thing ? ATRL lives in Lala land 

[mig123]

Just now, mig123 said:

Third party ? Is there such thing ? ATRL lives in Lala land 

It too late for a third party…..there's millions of dollars invested for Two parties and y'all really think a third party is going to win ?  Guess what ? Y'all late to the party.. maybe in 2028 

[ZeroSuitBritney]

I will happily be voting third party and convincing everyone I know in swing states to do the same. 

[Vixen Eyes]

i either need a completely new set of candidates or the finances and ability to move out of the country. i cant take this mess anymore, its so beyond repair at this point.