base talk How did R&B remain dominantly Black?

[lonnie]

Unlike the other genres of music pioneered by Black Americans: jazz, rock, dance, soul, blues, disco, even rap to an extent, RnB has remained predominantly Black. In that it is mostly Black artists who do well with the genre, win awards in the categories at major award shows, as opposed to a genre like house which is now predominantly white.

 

I should also add that the audience also is still very predominantly Black. While the other genres still have a Black audience, white audiences fully embraced them while R&B remains mostly Black.

Why is that? 

Edited June 7, 2023 by lonnie

[Virgos Groove]

Because when white people do it, it gets labeled "pop".

[Shimenawa]

You need to be able to sing

[MonsterNavy]

because 99.9% of the time only black people can pull it off effortlessly. they just have the natural charisma and coolness to it not to mention vocals

when white people do it its just  and most of the time they sound very poppy and never really commits to it

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by MonsterNavy

[lonnie]

4 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

Because when white people do it, it gets labeled "pop".

Can you give examples? Because I don't think ballads are necessarily R&B. Teena Marie is one of the best examples of white people doing R&B.

[Kimbra]

11 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

Because when white people do it, it gets labeled "pop".

/end thread.

[GoodGuyGoneGhetto]

To be honest…

 

There has only been a handful of White artists that have been able to execute Contemporary R&B music well since the genres inception ie. Average White Band, Hall & Oates, Teena Marie, George Michael, Lisa Stansfield, Robin Thicke, Christina Aguilera, Jojo, Ariana Grande etc. 

 

Aside from that, there’s also a difference between 1) white acts randomly partaking in the genre and 2) those of whom are actually committed to it and make it a part of their overall artistry, thus being respected for it. 
 

You need to have a “voice”, first and foremost, as well as a certain level of natural charisma and stylistic appeal to do the genre justice. Even the Black R&B singers who may not have the biggest or most powerful voice (SZA, Jhene Aiko) are still able to bring forward a lot of ‘cool’ that still makes them and the genre interesting. 
 

If Taylor Swift decided to suddenly veer toward R&B music, it wouldn’t be authentic and she’d execute it poorly. That said, if Willow Smith decided to do that today it also wouldn’t be authentic as it’s not her style. The difference is that the music industry and society are obsessed with labels so if Willow Smith did do it, as a Black woman, it wouldn’t be “surprising” to many. Overall, the industry has been labelling R&B a “Black genre” for decades, for better or worst. @lonnie
 

Edited June 7, 2023 by GoodGuyGoneGhetto

[vale9001]

cause in 2023 if a white person make that genre you call it appropriation. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by vale9001

[ugo]

Justin Timberlake did some R&B which was pretty successful

 

I guess some genres are cultural...just like how country/folk/americana is mainly a white genre

Edited June 7, 2023 by ugo

[Virgos Groove]

10 minutes ago, lonnie said:

Can you give examples? Because I don't think ballads are necessarily R&B. Teena Marie is one of the best examples of white people doing R&B.

My point was mostly about how, while R&B and pop are clearly not the same genre, there is a large in-between space where a lot of performers tend to fall on. White performers can add R&B elements to their songs and still appeal to broad audiences*, while Black performers tend to get sidelined to the "urban" label even if their music is pop-adjacent.

 

Teena Marie, pre-BR Robin Thicke, etc., are the exceptions, as their music does not appeal to white audiences and they are/were perceived as "loyal" to the genre. R&B as a genre is extremely broad and influential, but as a "space" it is very gatekeep-y (which is not a bad thing).

 

*Plus, when white people add R&B elements to their music, it tends to be seen as temporary and "putting on a costume". It is a vacation to R&B-land, basically (see: Miley, Bieber, etc.).

[GoodGuyGoneGhetto]

11 minutes ago, ugo said:

Justin Timberlake did some R&B which was pretty successful

 

I guess some genres are cultural...just like how country/folk/americana is mainly awhile genre

Folk and Americana music, I agree to an extent. 
 

Country music, not so much.

 

There have been a few Black Country singers that remain a legend in the genre ie. Charlie Pride, Darius Rucker etc. 
 

The huge problem is that Country music became solely aligned with White southerners starting in the middle-to-late 1960’s and popular Country music record labels only started to sign White artists to appeal to a primarily White, Southern audience and it’s never truly recovered since.

 

Modern Black Country singers ie. Kane Brown, Mickey Guyton have all spoken about the difficulties faced in having them marketed as Country singers while being Black. Even famous White Country singers ie. Dolly Parton, Garth Brooks, Maren Morris have spoken about this, ironically. White R&B singers don’t (generally) have this issue.

 

The issue with Country music goes so much deeper and there’s been a lot of direct/indirect racism and discrimination surrounding it for decades. 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by GoodGuyGoneGhetto

[lonnie]

17 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

My point was mostly about how, while R&B and pop are clearly not the same genre, there is a large in-between space where a lot of performers tend to fall on. White performers can add R&B elements to their songs and still appeal to broad audiences*, while Black performers tend to get sidelined to the "urban" label even if their music is pop-adjacent.

 

Teena Marie, pre-BR Robin Thicke, etc., are the exceptions, as their music does not appeal to white audiences and they are/were perceived as "loyal" to the genre. R&B as a genre is extremely broad and influential, but as a "space" it is very gatekeep-y (which is not a bad thing).

 

*Plus, when white people add R&B elements to their music, it tends to be seen as temporary and "putting on a costume". It is a vacation to R&B-land, basically (see: Miley, Bieber, etc.).

Oh no, I recognize what you mean. Pop music as a genre is amorphous and basically derives from a lot, that R&B would be one of those sources shouldn't be surprising. And I mean this even with Black artists: Rihanna, Beyoncé, Whitney, Mariah, Janet are among examples of mainstream Black artists who've incorporated R&B elements into their music. But that doesn't make Rihanna, for instance, any less of the pop artist she is. But I do agree that R&B is gate-keepy and I love that about it. I think that's why it's still robust as a genre.

 

46 minutes ago, GoodGuyGoneGhetto said:

To be honest…

 

There has only been a handful of White artists that have been able to execute Contemporary R&B music well since the genres inception ie. Average White Band, Hall & Oates, Teena Marie, George Michael, Lisa Stansfield, Robin Thicke, Christina Aguilera, Jojo, Ariana Grande etc. 

 

Aside from that, there’s also a difference between 1) white acts randomly partaking in the genre and 2) those of whom are actually committed to it and make it a part of their overall artistry, thus being respected for it. 
 

You need to have a “voice”, first and foremost, as well as a certain level of natural charisma and stylistic appeal to do the genre justice. Even the Black R&B singers who may not have the biggest or most powerful voice (SZA, Jhene Aiko) are still able to bring forward a lot of ‘cool’ that still makes them and the genre interesting. 
 

If Taylor Swift decided to suddenly veer toward R&B music, it wouldn’t be authentic and she’d execute it poorly. That said, if Willow Smith decided to do that today it also wouldn’t be authentic as it’s not her style. The difference is that the music industry and society are obsessed with labels so if Willow Smith did do it, as a Black woman, it wouldn’t be “surprising” to many. Overall, the industry has been labelling R&B a “Black genre” for decades, for better or worst. @lonnie
 

Interesting point.

[professor2000]

I think it’s because white artists avoid being labeled “R&B” (or their labels encourage them not to be marketed as such)...b/c let’s be real, the industry works hard to keep R&B relegated to smaller platforms (limited radio formats/audience, less visibility, etc).  

What white artist would willingly choose to be marketed to smaller platforms??

 

White artists will dabble in the R&B space, but few will market themselves as purely R&B (outside of Teena Marie, Bobby Caldwell, etc).  And even their stats aren’t as impressive as some of their other white peers.  

I do think that talent + ability is also a factor.  Because traditionally you gotta have VOCALS to partake in the R&B space, and to be accepted by Black audiences as being talented.  Typically we have very high standards for singing (especially 60s-90s).  
 

But I feel like a lot of why R&B stayed black has to do with marketing and visibility (especially 90s onward).   
 

 

[jesus del rey]

I think it also has to do with how the music industry labels your music. I think this is a very insightful quote about that:

 

She (FKA Twigs) has been associated with the alternative R&B tag, though she herself has rejected the R&B label as related to her race:

It's just because I'm mixed race. When I first released music and no one knew what I looked like, I would read comments like: 'I've never heard anything like this before, it's not in a genre.' And then my picture came out six months later, now she's an R&B singer. I share certain sonic threads with classical music; my song 'Preface' is like a hymn. So let's talk about that. If I was white and blonde and said I went to church all the time, you'd be talking about the 'choral aspect'. But you're not talking about that because I'm a mixed-race girl from south London.

[Jude]

Ariana tried but she's her RnB stuff is still labeled pop.

[Bloodflowers.]

Because racist records labels don't allow black artists to do music that isn't R&B or hip hop because they wouldn't know how to "market them" (see Tina Turner original rock album flopping in the US while smashing in the UK or Kelly Rowland doing EDM/dance music where she got no airplay in the US while smashing in UK as recent example)

[brooklyndaddy]

1 hour ago, vale9001 said:

cause in 2023 if a white person make that genre you call it appropriation. 

is critical thought difficult for you? 

[brooklyndaddy]

3 minutes ago, Jude said:

Ariana tried but she's her RnB stuff is still labeled pop.

Her “R&B” stuff was melodic moaning over some ringtones

[WBTlove]

1 hour ago, lonnie said:

Can you give examples? Because I don't think ballads are necessarily R&B. Teena Marie is one of the best examples of white people doing R&B.

Justin Timberlake 

 

Lots of Justin Bieber recent music.

Ariana Grande 

 

Bruno Mars & the Weekend are considered pop for some reason. I guess cause they don’t come from the African American tradition/culture.

Edited June 7, 2023 by WBTlove

[WBTlove]

7 minutes ago, brooklyndaddy said:

Her “R&B” stuff was melodic moaning over some ringtones

I mean, how is that different from Chloe?

[Dr. Alexander]

You have to be able to sing your behind off or be fly enough to be accepted to be in the culture. A lot of white people can’t pull off our music or “swag”.

Showtime At Apollo was a visual representation of that. If you passed the audience test, you were in. 
 

 

[GoodGuyGoneGhetto]

10 minutes ago, Bloodflowers. said:

Because racist records labels don't allow black artists to do music that isn't R&B or hip hop because they wouldn't know how to "market them" (see Tina Turner original rock album flopping in the US while smashing in the UK or Kelly Rowland doing EDM/dance music where she got no airplay in the US while smashing in UK as recent example)

I agree, but Kelly Rowland‘s problems were a little different.

 

The Pop/Electro-oriented music she released Globally, bar the United States, was either purposely not released there or she would only release the more “Urban”-based music in the United States.

 

Her label had no idea how to market her, nor did she know how to market herself, equally, and it was extremely frustrating during her imperial phase - 2007-2011. She once said that she didn’t want to “alienate” her “core” audience in the U.S but that should’ve had no bearing on what style of music she released in one part of the world vs. the other. Usher, Beyoncé, Rihanna all released Pop music alongside R&B music and it wasn’t an issue. 
 

Her solo career has been so haphazard and I can only, truly, blame her. 

[Devin]

I’m happy R&B and Hip Hop are still primarily Black genres. Our people gave flavor and use to dominate so many genres that are now commercially white washed. Every time I see a YT artist dive too deep in R&B (or Rap) its very try hard and inauthentic. 
 

R&B remains one of those genres where talent is still a requirement. Whether if you ooze sex appeal, have a distinctive tone, emotional songwriting, or just pure vocals. 
 

Also, racial labelling plays a huge role bc not every Black artist is R&B or Hip Hop - its unfortunate some Black artists get boxed into those genres when they truly want to be pop, rock, country, disco. Its even MORE offensive to those who are actually R&B and Hip Hop artists get snubbed by artists who aren’t interested in those genres but if they music is commercially digestable to a white audience they will label it R&B or Hip Hop.

[Devin]

4 minutes ago, WBTlove said:

I mean, how is that different from Chloe?

Chloe actually comes from R&B background, Ariana does not.

[WBTlove]

6 minutes ago, GoodGuyGoneGhetto said:

She once said that she didn’t want to “alienate” her “core” audience in the U.S but that should’ve had no bearing on what style of music she released in one part of the world vs. the other. Usher, Beyoncé, Rihanna all released Pop music alongside R&B music and it wasn’t an issue. 
 

Her solo career has been so haphazard and I can only, truly, blame her. 

Going pop killed Usher’s career. His r&b fan base ran away and never came back. He got a few quick radio hit but those lil white girls are not buying his albums.

 

Beyoncé released 1 pop album and even then she never released something as euro dance as: When Love Takes Over or Usher’s dance track. The closest was Sweat Dream which was still sung in a very r&b way.

 

Rihanna was never an r&b artist. She was always a pop star who a become more urban over time. But she does not come from r&b. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by WBTlove