Communion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mike91 said: As someone who considers themself to be on the left (though I still support AOC and Bernie - so I don't know what that makes me now), I'll just say that the movement has become counterproductive. The refusal to work within the democratic party, even if they are not perfect, accomplishes nothing. Instead of moving towards progressive policies like M4A, we're stuck re-fighting battles we already won in the past like abortion, civil rights, etc. Wanting Kamala to attack Israel or downplay our military would basically hand Trump the presidency and set us back even further. If Trump wins, 2028 will then become about passing marriage equality back into law and undoing Trump's national abortion ban. No one's going to want to hear anything about any progressive economic policies. My issue with this framing is... sister.. *gestures around* what do you have to show for it? These posts are.. not serious. They rely on pre-programmed talking points Even the last claim doesn't work out when movements for M4A, criminal justice, immigration reform, etc. thrived under organized rallying against Trump, only to die off the moment Democrats took power. In fact, once put in power by progressives, Democrats have gone from rallying for these causes to demonizing them. "The left is counter-productive, they doin't want to work in the system" - Biden was elected off the back of a surge in turnout for young progressive voters. The uncommitted movement are literally Uncommitted Democratic delegates, representing Democratic voters, who voted "uncommitted" in Democratic primaries. Criticism is largely driven by progressives who have worked hand-in-hand with Dems and are asking them to meet the promises they made when running, or partisan Democrats who swear to everyone watching that Dem electeds CAN be flipped on foreign policy, even as the party embraces anti-Arab/Palestinian racism as a ideological pillar. Do you not realize how rebuking the people who are arguing Dems are inherently good just ultimately makes the Democratic party look worse? Tangible, clearly articulate policies like "arm embargo on Israel that should already occur due to violating Leahy Laws" are re-framed as "attack Israel" and other fallacies. This is why the left-punching and hostilities ultimately come off as insecurity. Users want to claim people don't have clear and realistic expectations and then claim they're being "attacked" when those conversations. We only know that one user is an out-of-touch affluent San Franciscoan because they tried to silence and attack users criticizing the Democratic party by going "WELL MY LIFE HASN'T BEEN BETTER SO Y'ALL ANNOYING FUCKS SHOULD SHUT UP!!". Elite capture can only go on for so long. Dems have fully captured progressives and neutralized them as a threat for the last decade. If you're arguing that this path is the most successful, you have to show what it's actually resulted in. Especially when the losses become clear. Edited August 24 by Communion 5
Sannie Posted August 24 Posted August 24 3 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: The smug left-punching from the usuals in here is genuinely even more of a turnoff than Kamala's warmongering and racist denial of Palestinians having a voice on stage at the DNC. Personally, this shows why I believe you people deserve nothing more than the absolute worst that a Trump presidency has to offer. Honestly, was still going to vote for her purely for meeting the lowest possible bar not picking that vile Zionist Shapiro as her running-mate, but at this point the gloating from @Sannie, @Harriser, @thesegayz and @GhostBox is disgusting me enough to even reconsider that. So congrats guys! "People on the internet are mean so trans people, black people, immigrants, and women in the US deserve all that's coming to them with Trump." A true mask-off moment. At least now you can't pretend to be moral or ethical regarding genocide. I appreciate the openness. 5 4 1 1
Relampago. Posted August 24 Posted August 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mike91 said: As someone who considers themself to be on the left (though I still support AOC and Bernie - so I don't know what that makes me now), I'll just say that the movement has become counterproductive. The refusal to work within the democratic party, even if they are not perfect, accomplishes nothing. Instead of moving towards progressive policies like M4A, we're stuck re-fighting battles we already won in the past like abortion, civil rights, etc. Wanting Kamala to attack Israel or downplay our military would basically hand Trump the presidency and set us back even further. If Trump wins, 2028 will then become about passing marriage equality back into law and undoing Trump's national abortion ban. No one's going to want to hear anything about any progressive economic policies. I feel like these accusations are constantly thrown at leftists and progressives but never at the liberals who are really just equally as uncompromising. When Harris picked Walz, slightly criticized Netanyahu and also adjusted her position on protestors at her rally immediately after receiving backlash for Shapiro/Detroit, there was legitimately a huge spark of hope and excitement that Kamala Harris was actually trying to court the left wing of the party. I'm so serious when I say after she did those things, I signed up to phonebank for her the following day after her Phoenix rally and donated to her twice. Then she went full President Coin at the DNC, throwing shots at China out of nowhere, becoming Bibi's biggest fan, and then made that God-awful "America will have the most LETHAL military in the world!" Literally a *laughs nervously* What the f*ck? moment of I've ever seen one. I think many of us understand the importance of compromise, but where is the compromise? Does it stop with a VP pick in the same election where we are being told Kamala had no power as VP and should not be held responsible for Biden's ineptitude? The things progressives must compromise on are things like genocide, denying people healthcare, denying people a livable wage, accepting the power of the prison-industrial complex, while liberals must compromise on… accepting mean attacks online? Like I'm not sure what liberals want from us that they don't already have. It's just difficult to understand the argument of "we need to WORK with the Democratic Party or nothing else will be done!!" when the party has shown several times that they do NOT want to give progressives power. From mobilizing to defeat Bernie in 2020 to holding secret meetings with Nancy Pelosi on how to oust progressive candidates, to not even wanting just ONE Palestinian speaker at the DNC, they have shown us many times we are not welcome and many of us still vote for them, we just have complaints about… very understandable things imo. Idk. I get that sometimes it feels like compromise is off the table with progressives, but I don't think it would have been hard for Kamala to take a stance that supports Israel as an ally, while also caveating that with: "We need to be supportive of our allies, however we need to assure that our billions of dollars in aid is being properly used against the threats that Israel is facing, which does not include using US weaponry to harm civilians. I will work tirelessly to assure that our aid remains a force for democracy and protection as it is in Ukraine, and so long as this is the case the US will stand by our ally Israel." Even that would have been enough for me to get my coconut bra on and buy a $5 Kamala Kooler at my local bar. And it probably wouldn't have even manifested in actual action she'd take, but just the sentiment would have been a nice gesture— that is how low the bar of compromise is, I feel. Edited August 24 by Relampago. 7
Relampago. Posted August 24 Posted August 24 6 minutes ago, GhostBox said: Even though these polls lately haven't been from high rated pollsters, the fact they're all similar percentages is kind of a good sign I hope.
Communion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 (edited) 37 minutes ago, rivers said: Life is better when you put people on mute. Just go ahead and do that and go on your way I mean, posts like this prove what was said before and what is kind of obvious. Much of the anger by users like yourself and others is not rooted in some lack of factuality in the arguments of leftists. You don't like leftists expressing their dissatisfaction because you use this thread as a form of self-soothing. You're deeply insecure on Harris' ability to win and seek out confirmation and other affirmations that will assure you that she can easily win and will win without too much interrogation on what she's doing wrong or counter-productive. And I sympathize. I could easily post about how I found liberal jeering for Harris' speech disgusting or how this new patriotism that brags about military lethalness shows that liberal Americans have not effectively been shamed enough as citizens of empire. But I didn't, because I know most liberal Americans users are likely just doom-scrolling to ease their own anxieties and, in part, entertainment. You're shouting into the void of a gay pop forum to somehow put your soul at ease. So I or others do the same. Say things that largely no one has been able to disprove - articulate how this whole campaign is not for leftists and there's nothing for leftists to gain in aiding and abetting such a clearly right-wing attempt at government power. The same tranquility you seemingly desire probably should be offered both ways, but apparently I must have neo-con Australians and users who work in Big Tech flood my replies with angry shouting that my views are inherently shameful & fringe because they can't dispute them. Edited August 24 by Communion 4
thesegayz Posted August 24 Posted August 24 3 minutes ago, Communion said: …flood my replies with angry shouting that my views are inherently shameful & fringe because they can't dispute them. This is literally you and @ClashAndBurn. If I had the time to feed what you and @ClashAndBurn post into ChatGPT and put a percentage on which "factions" of users go negative and attack, you both would win in spades. Even people who are not arguing intensely get "dragged" by you both. The gaslighting, "receipt digging," and P!nk-esque aerial arguments that never come down to earth are just so… chihuahua barking at its own shadow 2 2 2
Armani? Posted August 24 Posted August 24 6 minutes ago, GhostBox said: They must really think Georgia is winnable Why wouldn't it be? It will be close. It depends on the White voters margins and turnout from her base there 1
1DES Posted August 24 Posted August 24 1 hour ago, WildAmerican said: asdfgh Our next POTUS and VP. 1
Communion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 23 minutes ago, Sannie said: "People on the internet are mean so trans people, black people, immigrants, and women in the US deserve all that's coming to them with Trump." Well. 1 1
Armani? Posted August 24 Posted August 24 It can't be higher than 70% of White voters choosing Trump if based on 2020 in Georgia
hausofdave Posted August 24 Posted August 24 SEP 06 - the first mail ballots get sent to voters - ex. North Carolina (on request) SEP 06-13 - E. Jean Carroll case SEP 10 - DEBATE SEP 16 - Pennsylvania - voters can now visit their local election office to request, complete and return a mail ballot SEP 16-18 - hush money case SEP 20 - early in person voting starts in some states SEP 21 - ballots for military and overseas voters must be sent out to them by this date SEP 26 - $500 million civil fraud case OCT 01 - VP DEBATE OCT 07 - DEADLINE for voter registrations in Georgia MID OCT - DEBATE 2 (?) NOV 05 3
Communion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 (edited) 12 minutes ago, thesegayz said: This is literally you and @ClashAndBurn. If I had the time to feed what you and @ClashAndBurn post into ChatGPT and put a percentage on which "factions" of users go negative and attack, you both would win in spades. Even people who are not arguing intensely get "dragged" by you both. The gaslighting, "receipt digging," and P!nk-esque aerial arguments that never come down to earth are just so… chihuahua barking at its own shadow I appreciate that in your attempt to somehow vindicate yourself, you admit that your anger comes not from being attacked in the absence of a coherent argument, but from having your arguments disproven by others making stronger arguments and your own views + past claims being easily findable and referenced. I think it highlights the key difference when your defense is that you arguing in defense of Biden-Harris slaughtering Palestinians is met with facts about how Harris has the full capability, public support and precedence to rebuke Biden's support for genocide and that your claims are not trustworthy due to past vocal support for the genocide is somehow the same as centrists angrily shouting at leftists that they're fringe and irrelevant in place of being able to articulate why it's somehow unreasonable to expect Dems not promote far-right foreign policy or immigration policy. Edited August 24 by Communion 2
GhostBox Posted August 24 Posted August 24 https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1827383111006462431?s=46&t=royz6Xk8Y2goDXUVqAWj1g 1
Communion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 (edited) Anyway, part of the negative sentiment seems to also be a tribalism that people who don't vote for your preferred party don't have an ability to accurately track the election. I was leaning to voting for Biden even when in the view he clearly had no way of winning. And my own inability to vote for Harris doesn't change that I think she still squeaks out a victory in the end, but the gamification ultimately leads to a kind of fanatical stanning where people forget how close the race remains. (One would think such political realities mean you don't purge your left but maybe advisors who get paid lots of money and run Harris' campaign know better ) Edited August 24 by Communion 4
Mr. Blue_Shirt Posted August 24 Posted August 24 2 hours ago, DAP said: Oh no, politicians getting criticized. The horror Treating politicians like favorite popstars? can't relate! 9
GhostBox Posted August 24 Posted August 24 JD Vance isn't camping out in PA for no reason. both campaigns NEED PA. Im sure we will see Harris and Walz there a lot as well. Also Shapiro barnstorming the state for them too 1 1
Relampago. Posted August 24 Posted August 24 17 minutes ago, Communion said: Anyway, part of the negative sentiment seems to also be a tribalism that people who don't vote for your preferred party don't have an ability to accurately track the election. I was leaning to voting for Biden even when in the view he clearly had no way of winning. And my own inability to vote for Harris doesn't change that I think she still squeaks out a victory in the end, but the gamification ultimately leads to a kind of fanatical stanning where people forget how close the race remains. (One would think such political realities mean you don't purge your left but maybe advisors who get paid lots of money and run Harris' campaign know better ) Hmm.. I do feel fairly confident Harris will carry one of GA, NC or PA— most likely PA I would guess, with GA close behind. I don't see it for NC despite favorable polling, the demographics and maps don't seem to pan out for her to take it.
Relampago. Posted August 24 Posted August 24 4 minutes ago, Relampago. said: Hmm.. I do feel fairly confident Harris will carry one of GA, NC or PA— most likely PA I would guess, with GA close behind. I don't see it for NC despite favorable polling, the demographics and maps don't seem to pan out for her to take it. Actually, I don't know why we aren't talking about WI more. Polling was off there worse than in other states. I also think it's a pretty good bellweather state for the Rust Belt. If she can't carry WI, she will need to win elsewhere in the Sun Belt. But if she loses WI… PA isn't looking so hot. 1
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