discussion Why do we shame gay men (but not straight women) for not being attracted to fem guys?

[Bitter Aging Twink]

I was hanging out with some of my gay besties today, and we got into an interesting debate.  As every gay person knows, "masc4masc" is a huge topic within our community, and it goes without saying that the majority of gay men tend to be more attracted to masculine-presenting men, and prefer to hookup and date guys who present that way.  However, within the gay community there is also a lot of shaming that goes on when a gay guy who isn't misogynistic (but who doesn't feel turned on by feminine traits) admits that he's not into feminine-presenting men.  I personally don't engage in this behavior myself, but I know many people in my circle who do.  In my opinion, we like what we like and we shouldn't shame each other for that.  However, it seems that there is a large subset of gay men who go out of their way to shame these "masc4masc" guys and pathologize them as having internalized misogyny and homophobia.  While this may be true in some cases, I think that, by and large, most of these men have no problem with feminine guys, but they just don't want to date or sleep with them, and that's totally valid!  I guess my issue comes from the fact that this shaming tactic seems so ubiquitous within the gay community, as if we are supposed to police other gay men and teach them what they can and cannot be attracted to.  On the other hand, straight women (who are also attracted to men) NEVER get shamed for exclusively dating and sleeping with masculine-presenting guys.  I have never once in my life heard someone tell a straight woman she MUST be open to dating a crossdresser, a guy who wears makeup, or a guy who does drag, or else she has some form of internalized self-hatred.  Why is this the case? Why is it that straight women are allowed to pursue the type of men they are attracted to without shame and judgment, while gay men are pathologized and told that they must have some internalized hatred towards women and gays? And can the same logic be applied to straight women as well? If (like most straight women) a woman ONLY likes masculine guys, can we say that she, too, is struggling with internalized misogyny and homophobia? If so, then why does this shaming ritual never happen to straight women as well? Why can they like what they like while we cannot? 

[Carla Rosón]

Most feminine straight men I know have no issues when it comes to find women to date. In fact every single one I know is in a relationship right now.

 

Gay loneliness on the other hand...

[dumbsparce]

Not reading all that but personally I don't shame anyone for their sexual preferences. It's the fact that the masc2masc thing is cringy af bc it screams insecurity. All the "mascs" I've met have this very forced "manly" persona that's based on outdated stereotypes. Meanwhile the actual "manly" gays I know are the most easygoing and normal ppl you can think of and don't go around telling others how manly they are lol 

Edited December 15 by dumbsparce

[Johnny Jacobs]

I am not attracted to fem guys. It's not a shameful preference. We need to stop shaming sexual attraction on people regardless of who they are. Gays or women or men or whoever. 

 

Not everybody has to be attracted to everybody. 

[St. Charles]

Truthfully the people I've talked to aren't really judgmental as much for not wanting to date a super femme guy. But, for the people who go on and on about it, it makes you wonder if there's something else to it? Just date who you like and move on.

[Claymore]

1 minute ago, Johnny Jacobs said:

I am not attracted to fem guys. It's not a shameful preference. We need to stop shaming sexual attraction on people regardless of who they are. Gays or women or men or whoever. 

 

Not everybody has to be attracted to everybody. 

Cause you're the fem one in the equation?

[SupremeGoddess]

because most gay men vilify and trample on feminine men, especially ones that are repressed or have that whole "straight acting" thing going on. those type of men blame femininity as the sole cause, or the root cause, of homophobia and instead of turning against actual perpetrators they lash onto a more fragile and vulnerable subclass of their own community 

 

women, more often than not, are the opposite. they prefer feminine men or men in touch and inclined with and to their feminine side

[Trent W]

I think a lot of women are attracted to feminine men

 

You can see it on how they follow k pop stars and celebrities like Timothee who looks basically like a girl in men's clothes

[Aston Martin]

I say we shouldn't shame gay men or straight women and just shame the actual enemy (homophobes) instead. 

[glitch]

Women in my experience are way more open to discussions around toxic masculinity than men are. Lots of women love men who are comfortable in their sexuality and happy to try out things that aren't perceived as traditionally masculine. If you ever watch a video of a straight man doing makeup for example,  the comment section will be full of women gassing him up, and any hate will mainly be coming from other men.

[redidnot]

16 minutes ago, Claymore said:

Cause you're the fem one in the equation?

What a shallow bad faith "gotcha"

[John Slayne]

straight women love feminine men tho

[Revolution]

Most str8 men are not fem. Meanwhile, most gay men are fem.

[modeblock]

Because society constantly shames gay men for not being "real men" and all that internalized toxicity is released into our community. Also, a lot of women will resort to homophobia against their partners / loved ones if they think they're being weak, cowardly, or feminine in ways they don't like. 

[toast]

During the gay civil rights movement there was tension between gays who wanted to appear "normal and masculine" to appease straight people & gays who were who they were regardless of heteronormative standards, and I don't think that tension ever really went away within the community.

 

I've seen more people shaming fems for being fem than people shaming masc4masc guys for not being into fems tbh.

 

I think masc4masc shaming is more about people claiming to be masc, when at best they're just cosplaying a surface-level version of masculinity (flannels, beards, being stinky, etc.).

Edited December 15 by toast

[HeavyMetalAura]

I personally don't have a problem with anyone having preferences, it's just, do we need to talk about them? 
 

All communities have this issue, of being unattracted to a commonly-shared quality. But we'd criticize a straight guy for saying "I'm not into fat chicks or girls with small ****." We'd criticize a straight girl for saying "swipe left if you're under 6 feet."

 

It's fine to prefer skinny girls with big boobs and guys who are super tall, but… why do we have to advertise that so loudly? It makes you seem like douche. 
 

And the same goes for the masc4masc crowd. If that's what you're into, fine, but you should shut up about it. 

[Princess Aurora]

Masc4Masc is annoying 

[Tropez]

Straight women actually like fem men. Like I'm not even joking. 

[Harrier]

Straight women love feminine men tbh, and so do a lot of gay guys in practice. It's not as if fem gays are having a hard time out there. I guess it's just not held up as the 'ideal', but it's not the barrier people think it is

 

People rightly make fun of masc4masc because it's often fake and put on. These masc4masc guys changing their voices, dressing in a different way, pretending they don't watch Rupauls drag race. No one has a problem with guys being naturally masculine but it's ******* lame to pretend to be or worse, to force yourself to be.

 

A former close friend of mine had a grindr profile full of the most bro-y poses and pictures, who talked with guys in text form like he's some dude bro but then in actuality he was a loud flamboyant 'gays gay' that said slay and mama in real life etc. Like just be yourself for gods sake 

[sugarysunflower]

Daddy issues? 

[willmcclure9]

Women generally love feminine men..... they go crazy for twinks

[Claymore]

11 minutes ago, redidnot said:

What a shallow bad faith "gotcha"

Ya'll are so sensitive to that word. The exterior may look masc, but the goey center is fem, gworl.

[Communion]

....straight cis women are indeed rightfully shamed for what amounts to homophobia and how they internalize femininity in men as negative?

 

Do you think a straight woman who wouldn't want to be with a man if he does things that she irrationally views as feminine should not be shamed for her backwards views?

 

That once you analyze fem-shaming in the context of straight people and it's blatant homophobia makes it clear why it's an issue when gays perpetuate it.

[Pavement Princess]

Straight women love their little fruity soft boy barista boyfriends tho

[Cheers]

"And I can tell that you're in touch with your feminine side~" - Nicki Minaj

 

Women actually don't mind a little bit of fruit. They love posting on their stories getting facials and manis with their man or watching "girly" movies with their bfs. "Omg can you believe John watched _______ with me! I know right???? He's sooo different 😍 "