Taylena Posted May 20 Posted May 20 Biden stans EXPLAIN why your guy is losing by 5 pts to Trump in Arizona while the Democrat candidate for the Senate is demolishing his GOP rival. Why are you guys so adamantly backing someone who is most likely suffering a defeat in November and unleashing 4 more years of Trump in the world? 4 2
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted May 20 ATRL Moderator Posted May 20 4 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: The only third party candidates with the ballot access necessary to make 270 are Jill Stein (who will have to win every single state the Greens are competing in, down to Mississippi and South Carolina to make that happen), and whoever the Libertarian ends up being (probably Chase Oliver, who's just as bad on Gaza as Biden or Trump). Unless everyone I know here in Texas is secretly planning on voting for the Greens, I just don't see this being a viable alternative. This time 4 years ago, Biden had an average 6 point lead on Trump in the polls. In November 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 5 points. (Link) Yes, things can change between now and November. But it is unwise to suggest there’s nothing to worry about because it’s May. 1
GhostBox Posted May 20 Posted May 20 (edited) "Just vote 3rd party" literally the most popular 3rd party candidate this election (and is not even on enough ballots to win the EC) Edited May 20 by GhostBox
Blade Runner Posted May 20 Posted May 20 With this division I'm seeing between democrats and leftits, Trump is SO winning. Good luck, America lmfao 1
GraceRandolph Posted May 20 Posted May 20 6 minutes ago, GhostBox said: "Just vote 3rd party" literally the most popular 3rd party candidate this election (and is not even on enough ballots to win the EC) Don't expect social movements to be able to win overnight. Do you think the women's suffrage movement was able to win in a matter of years? You have to start somewhere and that place is supporting Jill Stein in 2024. 2 1
wastedpotential Posted May 20 Posted May 20 4 minutes ago, Bloo said: This time 4 years ago, Biden had an average 6 point lead on Trump in the polls. In November 2020, Biden won the popular vote by 5 points. (Link) Yes, things can change between now and November. But it is unwise to suggest there's nothing to worry about because it's May. True (though in between May and November the polling fluctuated up to 9-10 points before the election, so the outcome still doesn't neatly reflect polling) but in a conversation with people declaring doom and gloom over 1-3 point margins in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, there ought to be at least some consideration of a grain of salt. Plus, in the next six months the odds are not negligible that Trump might be imprisoned and Biden might... cross the rainbow bridge (I'm trying to remain off the watch lists ), and there's no way of knowing what effect that would have on polling.
Hex Posted May 20 Posted May 20 23 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: If Americans agreed with this then why isn't Biden leading Trump in like… any swing state? Because of people like you. 1 2 5
GraceRandolph Posted May 20 Posted May 20 1 minute ago, wastedpotential said: True (though in between May and November the polling fluctuated up to 9-10 points before the election, so the outcome still doesn't neatly reflect polling) but in a conversation with people declaring doom and gloom over 1-3 point margins in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, there ought to be at least some consideration of a grain of salt. Plus, in the next six months the odds are not negligible that Trump might be imprisoned and Biden might... cross the rainbow bridge (I'm trying to remain off the watch lists ), and there's no way of knowing what effect that would have on polling. Is a poll like this not an absolute alarm bell for Biden?
GraceRandolph Posted May 20 Posted May 20 Just now, Hex said: Because of people like you. I'm glad I'm so influential that I can influence thousands of swing state voters to hate Biden. 1
wastedpotential Posted May 20 Posted May 20 1 minute ago, GraceRandolph said: Is a poll like this not an absolute alarm bell for Biden? You know, I'd like to think that it would be, but I can't be sure. I'm not speaking to them. Perhaps they've decided to write off Arizona (and Nevada and Georgia) because there is a potential path to victory without them. I think that would be a stupid decision, but it doesn't influence my electoral choice.
Pop Art Posted May 20 Posted May 20 It absolutely blows my mind how so people whose views are pretty aligned with mine see this and all the other terrifying things looming from another Trump presidency (for the US and other countries) and still somehow think voting for someone other than Biden or not voting at all is the best option. Like I truly do not get it. Biden is far from perfect, but of the only two people that will walk away with a 2025 presidency, he's clearly the better choice if you're on the left. I'm all for criticizing him and pushing for him to veer way more left, but that's a whole different conversation than people protest voting third party or not voting at all. 3 2
GraceRandolph Posted May 20 Posted May 20 3 minutes ago, Pop Art said: It absolutely blows my mind how so people whose views are pretty aligned with mine see this and all the other terrifying things looming from another Trump presidency (for the US and other countries) and still somehow think voting for someone other than Biden or not voting at all is the best option. Like I truly do not get it. Biden is far from perfect, but of the only two people that will walk away with a 2025 presidency, he's clearly the better choice if you're on the left. I'm all for criticizing him and pushing for him to veer way more left, but that's a whole different conversation than people protest voting third party or not voting at all. It's been clear that trying to push Biden over the finish line is a lost cause. Polls prove that moderate Dems are fleeing more than leftists. The few leftists advocating for supporting Jill Stein are trying to use the Stein campaign as a platform to advocate for left wing ideas. 1
Pop Art Posted May 20 Posted May 20 Just now, GraceRandolph said: It's been clear that trying to push Biden over the finish line is a lost cause. Polls prove that moderate Dems are fleeing more than leftists. The few leftists advocating for supporting Jill Stein are trying to use the Stein campaign as a platform to advocate for left wing ideas. No matter what polls say, at this point in this election cycle, there are only two individuals who have the ability to cross that finish line in November: Biden or Trump. Thus, voting for anyone other than one of these two only serves to harm the chances of the candidate that most aligns with your views and strengthen the chances of the candidate that least aligns with your views. Unfortunately, it really is that simple and no amount of conversation or debate will change that at this point. 2
Communion Posted May 20 Posted May 20 (edited) Come on fellow centrist adults. What's the policy proposal to win back Jiill Stein voters in the crucial swing state of Wisconsin? I'm all ears! Trump must be stopped so let's get those policy whitepapers flowing! Edited May 20 by Communion 1
Communion Posted May 20 Posted May 20 20 minutes ago, Pop Art said: No matter what polls say, at this point in this election cycle Literally only people who want to lose elections utter these words Biden's job is to win elections. He is currently set to not do that. Why do some of you want to lose so badly? 1
GraceRandolph Posted May 20 Posted May 20 6 minutes ago, Kassi said: It's clear the Dems dgaf about genocide so why should we expect them to save us?
Pop Art Posted May 20 Posted May 20 4 minutes ago, Communion said: Literally only people who want to lose elections utter these words Biden's job is to win elections. He is currently set to not do that. Why do some of you want to lose so badly? Who other than Biden or Trump do you think has an actual, viable opportunity of winning the November 2024 election at this point in time? I'm genuinely curious to hear who else you think will be able to win besides one of those two. Again, keeping in mind where we are now and that many states are locked in (I believe) in terms of who can appear on their ballots.
Communion Posted May 20 Posted May 20 2 minutes ago, Pop Art said: other than Biden How can some of you claim to be outraged over how and why people are or are not voting if you're not able to display that you coherently understand the criticisms most average Americans are making? I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Electoral politics is about optimizing the alginment between candidates and voters. Candidates receive votes from voters when they feel aligned. Despite having hundreds of millions of dollars, Joe Biden's campaign is failing in assessing what voters are open to him and what those voters want. This is self-evident through polls. Campaigns react to and shift in accordance to polling to ensure they win. Anyone who says they're not gonna pay attention to polls because they show the reality that Biden is doing poorly are people who themselves do not care about if Trump is stopped and prove they have no interest in Biden winning. 2 1
Headlock Posted May 20 Posted May 20 1 hour ago, Hex said: GET OFF THE SHIP AND GO WHERE? Are you new to politics? I mean that not as an insult but it sounds like you are naive enough to believe we have any other option. We do not and won't. Accept that. What a campaign slogan! People will surely be running to the polls to vote 1 1 3
Pop Art Posted May 20 Posted May 20 10 minutes ago, Communion said: How can some of you claim to be outraged over how and why people are or are not voting if you're not able to display that you coherently understand the criticisms most average Americans are making? I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Electoral politics is about optimizing the alginment between candidates and voters. Candidates receive votes from voters when they feel aligned. Despite having hundreds of millions of dollars, Joe Biden's campaign is failing in assessing what voters are open to him and what those voters want. This is self-evident through polls. Campaigns react to and shift in accordance to polling to ensure they win. Anyone who says they're not gonna pay attention to polls because they show the reality that Biden is doing poorly are people who themselves do not care about if Trump is stopped and prove they have no interest in Biden winning. You can understand and agree with the criticisms being made against him while also understanding that he is still the better person to vote for of the ones that will win in November. Not sure why you're throwing not so subtle shade towards anyone's intellect when you're the one failing to understand that both can be true. Also, you didn't answer my question so I'm assuming you don't have an answer to it. I've seen how these Communion conversations go down, so I'll probably check out of this one now. Have a good one, and know that we actually do agree on most things politically at the end of the day. 2
GraceRandolph Posted May 20 Posted May 20 6 minutes ago, Pop Art said: You can understand and agree with the criticisms being made against him while also understanding that he is still the better person to vote for of the ones that will win in November. If this is true then why is the Dem base so unenthused about him? 1
Pop Art Posted May 20 Posted May 20 Just now, GraceRandolph said: If this is true then why is the Dem base so unenthused about him? Perhaps because he's not doing what many on the left want? That's not a "gotcha" moment, we all know he can and should be doing better and I've expressed that several times in this thread. This still doesn't negate my point. 2
Communion Posted May 20 Posted May 20 2 minutes ago, Pop Art said: understanding that he is still the better person to vote for You're masturbating. You're shouting into a void to please no one but your own ego and hatred of most Americans who do not trust your preferred candidate. You're willing to risk a Trump win to spite the average American who needs Biden to do more. You hate the average normie American than you hate Trumpm "WELL I THINK HE IS BETTER"? Did you want a prize? Did you want a reward for moralizing and purity politics? Do you feel pure for liking Biden as is and not having other concerns and problems in life? You're really willing to let Trump win to protect your own ego and Biden's? The vast majority of people are not asking for Biden to be ousted. And those who do are simply reacting to your radical and fringe extremism when you claim Biden's personal ideology is somehow more important than beating Trump. When was the last time Biden brought up raising the federal minimum wage? When was the last time Biden mentioned passing a public option that he said was his alternative to Medicare For All? When was the last time Biden mentioned making community colleges free? The average American is more progressive than Joe Biden. They held their nose to vote for him over Trump in 2020. Biden is choosing to help Trump win by not meeting voters where they are at and putting his own personal conservativism and ideology before winning. Stopping Trump is more important than bowing to Biden's out-dated views that most voters don't agree with. Defending Biden and defending his choice to help Trump win is unacceptable. 2 1
Kassi Posted May 20 Posted May 20 33 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: It's clear the Dems dgaf about genocide so why should we expect them to save us? I've already survived one genocide, so I don't expect anyone to save me. I just don't want ya'll who are rooting for a Biden loss to be caught off guard.
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