news Report: US rejected 2-state proposal offer by Palestinian Authority + 5 Arab nations

[Ryan]

22 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

What Hamas did was horrible, but

No. There is no but. This is why it’s hard to have these discussions because there are people on one side who try to rationalize or excuse Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They do not help the Palestinian people. Period. Full stop. 
 

57 minutes ago, Hurem said:

I'm kinda taken aback that you'd post something like this, since you're usually well spoken on sensitive issues  This extreme simplification of what's happening in Gaza is nothing more than spin meant to shift the blame from Israel to the Palestinians (even though you say Hamas). The only ones to blame for the slaughter of Palestinians are those slaughtering them.

 

 

No. When I say Hamas I mean the terrorist organization. I do not associate them in the same category as the Palestinians, who are victims of both Hamas and Israel. 
 

You can say it’s an extreme simplification, it’s the truth. And I expanded on that in a later post.

 

I never once have excused Israel’s actions. Because they’re been the problem for generations well before 10/7. But what we’re not going to is act like Hamas, which is an occupying terrorist organization hiding behind and within the Palestinians, was justified or “protecting” the Palestinians when they did what they did in October. 
 

When people start defending Hamas you’ve lost the plot. Both Hamas and the IDF are responsible for the atrocities happening to the Palestinian people prior and after 10/7. 

[Communion]

5 hours ago, Ryan said:

This is why content is extremely important. What's the point of trying to sell a deal if the literal terrorist group responsible for the Palestinians being slaughtered is still in control?

 

5 hours ago, Ryan said:

Is Hamas not the terrorist group that started this latest conflict?

No. Hamas is the current governing body that was democratically voted into power by the people of Gaza after years of violent subjugation by the Israel state. It's a political party. You remove it by simply electing or putting a new political party (like the PA into power).

 

Let alone - if they were a terrorist group - everything we know about how terrorism works means you cannot "eradicate" it. Terrorist groups dissolve and simply transform into new ones because the groups we are designating as terrorists are simply governing bodies of people under various forms of subjugation. 

 

Anyone who suggests Hamas can even be eradicated is an unserious person whose idea of national security is rooted in racial dog whistles and failed Americanism like the War on Terror. 

[State of Grace.]

15 minutes ago, Ryan said:

No. There is no but. This is why it's hard to have these discussions because there are people on one side who try to rationalize or excuse Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They do not help the Palestinian people. Period. Full stop. 

You are refusing to look at the full picture/context. There's no reason for me to continue this.

 

If you think Hamas will be "eradicated", then trust there will be another Hamas. And another one. And they will all be legitimate resistance groups. 

[Hurem]

6 minutes ago, Ryan said:

No. When I say Hamas I mean the terrorist organization. I do not associate them in the same category as the Palestinians, who are victims of both Hamas and Israel. 
 

You can say it's an extreme simplification, it's the truth. And I expanded on that in a later post.

 

I never once have excused Israel's actions. Because they're been the problem for generations well before 10/7. But what we're not going to is act like Hamas, which is an occupying terrorist organization hiding behind and within the Palestinians, was justified or "protecting" the Palestinians when they did what they did in October. 
 

When people start defending Hamas you've lost the plot. Both Hamas and the IDF are responsible for the atrocities happening to the Palestinian people prior and after 10/7. 

Hamas was born out of a reaction to Israeli occupation, so once again we go to the root of the problem - Israel.

 

October 7th was a tragic event that should never have happened. However, it is neither better nor worse than what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for decades. That's why I find it very irritating when I see more blame placed on Hamas than on Israel in this general conflict. If the world had left Palestine alone in the first place, Hamas would never have been founded, and none of this would have happened.

 

At the end of day, it's simple politics and I'm amazed at how many people are not seeing through it. Like you previously said, Israel knew Hamas was plotting an attack. They were more than happy to let it slide, because they knew this was their opportunity to manipulate the public into thinking they are the victims in this conflict. And they succeeded in their intention of getting the public to excuse a literal genocide, under the veil of "Israel defending themselves".

[Both Sides Now]

14 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

No. Hamas is the current governing body that was democratically voted into power by the people of Gaza after years of violent subjugation by the Israel state. It's a political party. You remove it by simply electing or putting a new political party (like the PA into power).

 

Let alone - if they were a terrorist group - everything we know about how terrorism works means you cannot "eradicate" it. Terrorist groups dissolve and simply transform into new ones because the groups we are designating as terrorists are simply governing bodies of people under various forms of subjugation. 

 

Anyone who suggests Hamas can even be eradicated is an unserious person whose idea of national security is rooted in racial dog whistles and failed Americanism like the War on Terror. 

I agree with you. 
 

It's not possible to eradicate militant resistance unless you genocide basically the entire population - which is what Israel is attempting to do. Anyone who tries to sell the idea there will be peace once you ~kill all the terrorists~ is either unserious or uneducated. 

My country (Ireland) has had peace for 30+ years. Previously, an Irish man in a balaclava was the face of terrorism in Britain. Peace wasn't achieved by trying to ~kill the terrorists~ - people like Thatcher tried to do that and it made things much, much worse. Peace was achieved by sitting down with the "terrorists" and negotiating a peace deal and releasing political prisoners. And hey - it worked. The IRA dissolved because there was no need for it with a political horizon for Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland.
 

If you want Hamas gone then free Palestine. Simple as. Instead, America will happily buy the idea that Hamas are uniquely evil and once you kill them all there can be peace. That's just not how human beings work.

[Kassi]

7 hours ago, rihannafan said:

If the US had a say, it would have been over after the Yom Kippur war alongside the Egyptian–Israeli peace treaty.

 

We're up to 10 presidents now who've attempted to move this thing along. 

[Kassi]

41 minutes ago, Hurem said:

Hamas was born out of a reaction to Israeli occupation, so once again we go to the root of the problem - Israel.

The Israeli occupation was born out of the Arab rejection of a UN two-state solution. 
 

So how do you square that with the root of the problem?
 

Ideally, the two parties would have peacefully partitioned. Which I think is what we're trying to get back to slowly in these negotiations. 
 

Hamas kicking up leaves that were carefully raked together over time is a major hindrance.

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Ryan said:

Both Hamas and the IDF are responsible for the atrocities happening

You say this but then have no declarations that the IDF be eradicated. That the current Israeli government be dissolved and be run temporarily by a US military regime in its place. What assurance are the Palestinians owed that the Israeli apartheid regime won't continue their aims of permanent subjugation of the Palestinian people?

 

Of course violence is awful. Which is why then It's hard to find reasons for why the Israeli state should even exist. Because by every measure, the greater apparatus of the Israeli state is more violent than Hamas, whom people want "eradicated" (whatever that means).

 

- Israeli has killed more Palestinians at every point in the last 75 years of this conflict.

- Israel has forcibly displaced more people. 

- The IDF has committed more war crimes (they were literally created out of a internationally-designated terrorist group who assasinated a UN ambassador for supporting 2 state solution).

- Israel has more Palestinians held hostage in jail. 

 

I don't know why.you differentiate between the two, as I can't know the operation of your mind. And I genuinely don't think you make such distinctions with explciit or nefarious intent (the point of propaganda is that most don't realize they've been propagandized). But I think you'd agree you're making a distinction between Israel's government and Palestine's government. The confusing bit being that this distinction seems to contrast with the objective reality of the Israeli state committing far more violence at any and every stage of this. 

 

This reality that America having goals doesn't make those goals inherently good or correct isn't just some fringe idea. Here is Rep. Ilhan Omar speaking of the distinctions we make when speaking of terrorist groups despite reality being less clear-cut. The fact that It's hard to find the clip posted from someone who isn't a racist right-winger drives home the point about American reactionaryism. 

 

 

Hamas is not any less valid of a political apparatus than the Israeli apartheid regime. Just cause we call them terrorists or say "Khamas" with lifted shoulders and wide eyes doesn't somehow change Israel is a violent occupying force who - in just the last 10 months - has killed over 30x as many people as who died on 10/07.

Edited May 6 by Communion

[Communion]

29 minutes ago, Both Sides Now said:

I agree with you. 
 

It's not possible to eradicate militant resistance unless you genocide basically the entire population - which is what Israel is attempting to do. Anyone who tries to sell the idea there will be peace once you ~kill all the terrorists~ is either unserious or uneducated. 

My country (Ireland) has had peace for 30+ years. Previously, an Irish man in a balaclava was the face of terrorism in Britain. Peace wasn't achieved by trying to ~kill the terrorists~ - people like Thatcher tried to do that and it made things much, much worse. Peace was achieved by sitting down with the "terrorists" and negotiating a peace deal and releasing political prisoners. And hey - it worked. The IRA dissolved because there was no need for it with a political horizon for Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland.
 

If you want Hamas gone then free Palestine. Simple as. Instead, America will happily buy the idea that Hamas are uniquely evil and once you kill them all there can be peace. That's just not how human beings work.

Thank you for this. The usage of the word eradicate is indeed so odd and vague despite being clear of its implications. How do you eradicate an idea? A resentment?

 

People claim not supporting Israel's existance is somehow wishing violence on Israelis, even when the language used is very specific of an ask. People who don't support the Israeli state want it dissolved as a nation and its borders unrecognized; the governing apartheid regime removed from power and the codified subjugation of Palestinians ended. There's specificity, not innuendo. 

 

And yet, in the same breath, we are told the leading political party in Gaza must be "eradicated" - a word that inherently conjures up violence and genocide. 

[Hurem]

23 minutes ago, Kassi said:

The Israeli occupation was born out of the Arab rejection of a UN two-state solution. 
 

So how do you square that with the root of the problem?
 

Ideally, the two parties would have peacefully partitioned. Which I think is what we're trying to get back to slowly in these negotiations. 
 

Hamas kicking up leaves that were carefully raked together over time is a major hindrance.

Pretending that Israel (or US, for that matter) want a two-state solution is hilarious. They want to get rid of Palestine and if you think they want to co-exist, you're deluding yourself.

 

I don't know if I want to answer the first question of yours, because it's more than obvious. A country has every right to reject a solution that forces them to give up half of their territory.

[Ryan]

I never said anything about eradicating hamas. You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not stupid or obtuse. You cannot eradicate terrorism. My point was no deal would be accepted that allowed Hamas to remain in control. 
 

And before anyone says “what about Israel” pretty much everyone has called for Bebe to leave and he knows once this “conflict” is over he’s going to lose power. Doesn’t mean the person after him will be any better. 

[Kassi]

Just now, Hurem said:

Pretending that Israel (or US, for that matter) want a two-state solution is hilarious. They want to get rid of Palestine and if you think they want to co-exist, you're deluding yourself.

 

I don't know if I want to answer the first question of yours, because it's more than obvious. A country has every right to reject a solution that forces them to give up half of their territory.

The way you put it in your first paragraph is exactly why this conflict keeps going. Israelis worry that Palestinians want to get rid of them, and Palestinians think the same about Israelis. This back-and-forth isn't helping anyone. That's why it's important for outsiders to look past these old stories and not just repeat them.

 

And about your second paragraph—this kind of thinking is why the conflict started in the first place. Sticking so rigidly to what each side wants just keeps everyone stuck. We need to see beyond that if we're ever going to move forward.

[Communion]

Also I'm sorry but it also uncomfortable to see words and verbiage be almost reflexively used. One side does not have to mirror another. It is fine to recognize Israel commits worse violence than Palestine without equivocation. 

 

1 hour ago, Ryan said:

But what we're not going to is act like Hamas, which is an occupying terrorist organization

Hamas was democratically-elected to power in 2006. An election that Hillary Clinton in 2016 leaked audio said the US should have rigged (the irony) because Hamas' rise to power via democratic elections made helping achieve Israel's goals harder. 

 

There have not been elections since in part because Israel - for some reason - gets to approve if an election gets to go forward, whether it be in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, etc.

 

If Israel does not want Hamas in power, but also does not want the PA in power, who gets to be in power? Israel? Surely that tells us the end goal. Israel and the US have never supported a 2 state solution. 

[Communion]

12 minutes ago, Ryan said:

I never said anything about eradicating hamas. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not stupid or obtuse. You cannot eradicate terrorism. My point was no deal would be accepted that allowed Hamas to remain in control. 
 

And before anyone says "what about Israel" pretty much everyone has called for Bebe to leave and he knows once this "conflict" is over he's going to lose power. Doesn't mean the person after him will be any better. 

Sis, this is needless defensiveness and It's followed by dishonesty. 

 

- The report indicates US officials explicitly call for the eradication of Hamas. 

- You replied and argued that this stance by the US is reasonable. 

 

If you don't agree with the concept with eradication, then the takeaway one should have is that America's specific asks are unreasonable. 

 

You seemingly understand the reasonable truth that you cannot eradicate societal resentment yet confusingly then defend the American government's assertion that acheiving Palestinian statehood is reliant on just that. 

 

You literally quoted the sentence about eradication and defended America's position:

 

I think having an impulsive defense and feeling that America is always operating from a place of goodness is the confusion here. You see America call for the eradication of Hamas yet take away from it that they just don't want Hamas in power...but the deal in question would already remove Hamas from power in Gaza and make the PA the leading political party....so then why is the deal bad if it does just that?

[ZeroSuitBritney]

Oh wow. No wonder we have so many unhinged Israeli defenders running around excusing an ongoing genocide. When there's a primary moderator who's calendar started on October 7th and refuses to acknowledge any of the countless tragedies that happened prior and why the terror attack happened in the first place and shift the blame primarily on Khamas, what can we expect?

 

6 minutes ago, Ryan said:

And before anyone says "what about Israel" pretty much everyone has called for Bebe to leave and he knows once this "conflict" is over he's going to lose power. Doesn't mean the person after him will be any better. 

I don't quite understand your logic. You're almost getting it, but not completely grasping it yet. You're right, it won't end with Bibi. Every PM in Israeli history has caused suffering to the Palestinian people. And with 98 percent of the Israeli public thinking Israel isn't going hard enough on Gaza, it's only obvious that the next PM will be just as destructive if not worse. 
 

It's almost as if the entire state of Israel, since it's beginning, was founded and is dependent on the eradication, ethnic cleansing, and/or partial (and now full) control of the Palestinian people and simply would not be able to properly exist without such a chokehold .

 

But yes, let's put the primary blame on Hamas for retaliation after one of the deadliest years for Palestinians, and not Israel and the IDF, who like you said knew that an attack was imminent, but were instead in the West Bank on Oct 7 protecting settlers as they terrorized Palestinians out of their homes. I mean if my calendar of the conflict began in October too, I would definitely see Hamas as the primary villain .

[Hurem]

21 minutes ago, Kassi said:

The way you put it in your first paragraph is exactly why this conflict keeps going. Israelis worry that Palestinians want to get rid of them, and Palestinians think the same about Israelis. This back-and-forth isn't helping anyone. That's why it's important for outsiders to look past these old stories and not just repeat them.

 

And about your second paragraph—this kind of thinking is why the conflict started in the first place. Sticking so rigidly to what each side wants just keeps everyone stuck. We need to see beyond that if we're ever going to move forward.

This conflict keeps going because Palestine doesn't want to give up their own country? Shocking. Asking Palestinians to compromise further after losing so much already is fundamentally unfair.

[Cesar]

15 minutes ago, Hurem said:

This conflict keeps going because Palestine doesn't want to give up their own country? Shocking. Asking Palestinians to compromise further after losing so much already is fundamentally unfair.

don't even bother with that user, they are a lost cause 

[Ryan]

22 minutes ago, ZeroSuitBritney said:

Oh wow. No wonder we have so many unhinged Israeli defenders running around excusing an ongoing genocide. When there's a primary moderator who's calendar started on October 7th and refuses to acknowledge any of the countless tragedies that happened prior and why the terror attack happened in the first place and shift the blame primarily on Khamas, what can we expect?

I assume you didn’t read my posts or you’re being deliberately daft. Either way its disingenuous to again attribute something I did not say or imply. 

[Ryan]

I get it. You support Hamas. You condone their actions with a “but…”There’s no reason to bother engaging when you’re twisting yourselves to defend the indefensible, all the while attacking anyone who doesn’t think exactly the way you want. 

[mig123]

this is not happening while natunyahu is in power… first he has to get removed 

 

and that's the biden administration goal 

[Ryan]

The Israel government is the problem.

Israel’s allies are the problem for excusing their genocide.

The IDF is essentially a form of police terrorism.

Hamas is a terrorism group who had made things worse for the Palestinians.

 

The Palestinians deserve better. At the end of the day I hope one day they are safe and free and able to not have to worry about being exterminated any longer.

[ZeroSuitBritney]

5 minutes ago, Ryan said:

I assume you didn't read my posts or you're being deliberately daft. Either way its disingenuous to again attribute something I did not say or imply. 

Oh no I definitely read your posts. And I stand by what I say. Maybe you need to read your posts again.

[ZeroSuitBritney]

5 minutes ago, Ryan said:

 

The Palestinians deserve better. At the end of the day I hope one day they are safe and free and able to not have to worry about being exterminated any longer.

Dissolve the apartheid state, and Hamas will cease to exist. It's as simple as that. 
 

9 minutes ago, Ryan said:

I get it. You support Hamas. You condone their actions with a "but…"There's no reason to bother engaging when you're twisting yourselves to defend the indefensible, all the while attacking anyone who doesn't think exactly the way you want. 

Putting the primary blame on Israel because we acknowledge decades of Israeli abuse, even prior to Hamas' formation which led to this terrible attack = supporting Hamas.

 

ATRL Administration at its finest, everyone  We are in such good hands

Edited May 6 by ZeroSuitBritney

[Hurem]

6 minutes ago, Ryan said:

The Israel government is the problem.

Israel's allies are the problem for excusing their genocide.

The IDF is essentially a form of police terrorism.

Hamas is a terrorism group who had made things worse for the Palestinians.

See how three of your points are about Israel, yet your initial post still pointed the blame at Hamas?

 

I see what you're saying and I know it's not malicious, but it just comes across very misinformed and influenced by US/Israeli propaganda talking points.

Edited May 6 by Hurem

[ZeroSuitBritney]

5 minutes ago, Hurem said:

See how three of your points are about Israel, yet your initial post still pointed the blame at Hamas?

 

I see what you're saying and I know it's not malicious, but it just comes across very misinformed and influenced by US/Israeli propaganda talking points.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. Their point about how Hamas has made things worse for Palestinians is a DIRECT result of those three points prior.