celeb news Selena Gomez attends Zionist wedding party where Israel flag is celebrated

[cOe]

52 minutes ago, heckinglovato said:

So Palestinians asking for our land back is anti-Semitic but Poland saying "we couldn't really keep Jewish folks here because we hate them" is a-okay 👍🏼

 

Also, as a Palestinian myself living in Warsaw, I can definitely tell you the issue here is hatred of literally everybody else, it's not constrained to anti-Semitism specifically.

 

Why is it that Benzion Mileikowsky, born right here in Poland, can just rename to Benjamin Netanyahu and live on my homeland (and run it as prime minister) while I have to globetrot as an expat for the rest of my life?

I'll never be able to understand the pain you must feel due to your situation and I'm very sorry. You have definitely raised important points, but:

- Ashkenazi Jews more often than not took Polish/German surnames which does not necessarily reflect on their ethnic origin. Again, there was very little intermixing with the Eastern European population. In all the materials I've seen of Jews during the Holocaust they were a visible minority, and Holocaust was a racially motivated event.

- Even Netanyahu (who is a POS) would not pass as Polish in his youth, and his mother was born near Tel Aviv in 1912.

I just think the discussion is a bit more nuanced than White Europeans against Middle Eastern people here. I support criticism of Israel's actions but the rhetoric online where people often equate Jews to Poles or Germans "with special snowflake syndrome" just doesn't make sense.

I do think Israel is a toxic state and that a ceasefire should occur so that major changes could be made finally

[G.U.Y. Gaga]

I mean ok?

[Communion]

The posts by mostly Europeans devolving into debunked ideas of race science.  The reality of Jewish people living in Europe for over a thousand years being met with people earnestly going "we Europeans barely mixed with those poor people! They're clearly North African in their genetics! I mean, look at their skull shapes!" isn't doing what people hope it is doing nor disputing the realities of whiteness being a social construction, let alone one that has propped up support for Israel and how it represents "Judeo-Christian society" against the "Arab barbarism of the Middle East".  That is literally the language the founders of Zionism used when pitching their movement to colonial powers for assistance. 

 

There's been one single user to make the meaningful point that the Israeli flag features religious symbology and thus nuance should be applied to how Jewish people either engage with the flag or react to usage of the flag. I agree with this! I get why Jewish people who don't even consider themselves Zionists wince or hesitate when they see protestors with signs featuring a giant X over the flag or the flag in the trash. Room should be given to people to navigate those discomforts. There should then be an eventual discussion on the insidiousness of tying the state of Israel to all Jewish people and the contradictions that occur in shielding Israeli state policy under the guise of Judaism, but again, there again should be room for nuance. 

 

However, that nuance becomes impossible when people begin to rely on disingenuous concepts like "listen to Jewish voices" as a means to excuse Israel as a state apparatus and why posts like this become questionable:

3 hours ago, SadGirl said:

regardless of how worthy Israel of criticism is (and it absolutely is, to say the least), asking Jews to ignore their connection to Israel is antisemitic. 

jewish holidays, jewish prayers and traditions are all related to the land Israel is existing on. maybe try and listen to jews when they say something is antisemitic. and I'm not even talking about the age old blood libels of how jews control the world/media that are shamelessly posted here  

"Listen to Jewish voices on the importance of Israel to the Jewish faith" is...not an earnest, well-meaning concept. It shows the flaws in representational, "listen to ____________" politics and how such ideas are not leftist but liberal in inception because they value some idea that identity is epistemology over material analysis. Am I meant to listen to this Jewish voice when she says that it is antisemitic for people to try and deny God's chosen people from returning to Judea and Samaria (aka the West Bank) via smiting those who oppose the creation of Greater Israel?

 

 

[heckinglovato]

4 minutes ago, cOe said:

I'll never be able to understand the pain you must feel due to your situation and I'm very sorry. You have definitely raised important points, but:

- Ashkenazi Jews more often than not took Polish/German surnames which does not necessarily reflect on their ethnic origin. Again, there was very little intermixing with the Eastern European population. In all the materials I've seen of Jews during the Holocaust they were a visible minority, and Holocaust was a racially motivated event.

- Even Netanyahu (who is a POS) would not pass as Polish in his youth, and his mother was born near Tel Aviv in 1912.

I just think the discussion is a bit more nuanced than White Europeans against Middle Eastern people here. I support criticism of Israel's actions but the rhetoric online where people often equate Jews to Poles or Germans "with special snowflake syndrome" just doesn't make sense.

I do think Israel is a toxic state and that a ceasefire should occur so that major changes could be made finally

Nobody is denying Netenyahu's Jewish roots nor the Jewish roots of those living Israel today, but the fact that the Israeli population is a migrant nation that lives there as a result of the mass murder and displacement of my people who were Palestinians legally living in Palestine prior to the establishment of the genocidal Zionist project of modern-day Israel (a settler colony) is an indisputable fact.

 

A few weeks ago I met a guy from Belarus, whose entire family was born and raised in Belarus. He went on birthright and got the Israeli citizenship while me and my entire family, who are ACTUALLY from that land are unable to visit or live there.

 

So no, a "ceasefire" isn't enough and it's not the solution, and European (and non-European) migrants displacing and killing my people to make space for their settler colony will never be okay or normal.

[KeshaSwift]

Yes queen 

[SadGirl]

10 minutes ago, Communion said:

The posts by mostly Europeans devolving into debunked ideas of race science.  The reality of Jewish people living in Europe for over a thousand years being met with people earnestly going "we Europeans barely mixed with those poor people! They're clearly North African in their genetics! I mean, look at their skull shapes!" isn't doing what people hope it is doing nor disputing the realities of whiteness being a social construction, let alone one that has propped up support for Israel and how it represents "Judeo-Christian society" against the "Arab barbarism of the Middle East".  That is literally the language the founders of Zionism used when pitching their movement to colonial powers for assistance. 

 

There's been one single user to make the meaningful point that the Israeli flag features religious symbology and thus nuance should be applied to how Jewish people either engage with the flag or react to usage of the flag. I agree with this! I get why Jewish people who don't even consider themselves Zionists wince or hesitate when they see protestors with signs featuring a giant X over the flag or the flag in the trash. Room should be given to people to navigate those discomforts. There should then be an eventual discussion on the insidiousness of tying the state of Israel to all Jewish people and the contradictions that occur in shielding Israeli state policy under the guise of Judaism, but again, there again should be room for nuance. 

 

However, that nuance becomes impossible when people begin to rely on disingenuous concepts like "listen to Jewish voices" as a means to excuse Israel as a state apparatus and why posts like this become questionable:

"Listen to Jewish voices on the importance of Israel to the Jewish faith" is...not an earnest, well-meaning concept. It shows the flaws in representational, "listen to ____________" politics and how such ideas are not leftist but liberal in inception because they value some idea that identity is epistemology over material analysis. Am I meant to listen to this Jewish voice when she says that it is antisemitic for people to try and deny God's chosen people from returning to Judea and Samaria (aka the West Bank) via smiting those who oppose the creation of Greater Israel?

 

 

considering how knowledgeable you are on the matter, I assume that you know perfectly well that Daniella Weiss and her fascist ideology does not represent the mainstream of the world Jewish population in the slightest. But I also assume that you choose to ignore it in order to paint Jews as the perfect villains whose concerns don't matter. 

[Communion]

4 minutes ago, SadGirl said:

considering how knowledgeable you are on the matter, I assume that you know perfectly well that Daniella Weiss and her fascist ideology does not represent the mainstream of the world Jewish population in the slightest. But I also assume that you choose to ignore it in order to paint Jews as the perfect villains whose concerns don't matter. 

You cannot apply identity politics to an ethno-nationalist movement. Let alone the ethno-state by which houses said ethno-nationalist movement. Identity is not an inherent form of knowledge if said identity is used to propose and support ideas at odds with material reality.

 

When Eastern Europeans are found throwing rocks at Syrian migrants crossing into their borders, what makes more sense - a class based analysis showing the problems of the working class are driven by elites with migration a scapegoat, or should we ~listen to Eastern European voices~ and by into ethnic-suprrmacist rhetoric of Poland for Poles, Hungary for Magyar, etc.

 

Would you go "listen to Hindu voices!!!!" in discussions of Hindutva?

 

Would anyone here earnestly respect someone going "we need to respect how important establishing the caliphate is to the Islamic people! Check your privilege!"? Muslim people can be assaulted on the streets of Europe and most people on here won't bestow grace to Muslims as a people let alone then suggesting such grace be bestowed to Muslim theocratic states, so please be serious and honest with yourself for a second. 

 

A material analysis of what Israel does is required. And you seem to know such would reveal Israel at large, no matter who is in power, subjugates the Palestinian people in terms of housing, food, safety, civic life, etc. Room for personal feelings rooted in identity about how we discuss these things have to work alongside the acknowledgement of the material degradation of the Palestinian people by virtue of Israel's existence. 

[SadGirl]

12 minutes ago, Communion said:

You cannot apply identity politics to an ethno-nationalist movement. Let alone the ethno-state by which houses said ethno-nationalist movement. Identity is not an inherent form of knowledge if said identity is used to propose and support ideas at odds with material reality.

 

When Eastern Europeans are found throwing rocks at Syrian migrants crossing into their borders, what makes more sense - a class based analysis showing the problems of the working class are driven by elites with migration a scapegoat, or should we ~listen to Eastern European voices~ and by into ethnic-suprrmacist rhetoric of Poland for Poles, Hungary for Magyar, etc.

 

Would you go "listen to Hindu voices!!!!" in discussions of Hindutva?

 

Would anyone here earnestly respect someone going "we need to respect how important establishing the caliphate is to the Islamic people! Check your privilege!"? Muslim people can be assaulted on the streets of Europe and most people on here won't bestow grace to Muslims as a people let alone then suggesting such grace be bestowed to Muslim theocratic states, so please be serious and honest with yourself for a second. 

 

A material analysis of what Israel does is required. And you seem to know such would reveal Israel at large, no matter who is in power, subjugates the Palestinian people in terms of housing, food, safety, civic life, etc. Room for personal feelings rooted in identity about how we discuss these things have to work alongside the acknowledgement of the material degradation of the Palestinian people by virtue of Israel's existence. 

this is a thread on the Israeli flag being "celebrated" in a Jewish wedding. my initiate post was on how asking Jews to completely detach themselves from Israel is antisemitic, because of obvious religious relations to the region - and that's why I was asking to listen to Jewish voices - only Jews can explain how meaningful Israel (as a place, not as a country) is to them, regardless of Israel's brutality which is a totally different matter. again, this region will always be a huge part of Judaism, and it has nothing to do with any political entity. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by SadGirl

[ForgottenSoul]

She wasnt even there lmfao

[theflying]

Proud Zionist here — no, I do not endorse the settler movement. They’re racist Jewish supremecist.

 

No, Zionism is not “inherently genocidal”, anymore than Palestinians wanting a nation is “inherently anti-Semitic”.

 

Calling someone a Zionist does NOTHING to tell you about what they think about the Palestinian situation.

 

Why don’t people who are throwing the word Zionist around clarify about whether they think Israel should be destroyed?

 

Because if you think Israel should be destroyed, I would say, yeah, that’s a pretty anti-Semitic sentiment, unless you have a super good reason like you’re Palestinian and have been personally affected by Israel’s existence (as a poster or two in this thread has demonstrated).

[State of Grace.]

Zionists: *stfu and listen to Jewish voices!*

Jewish people against Israel: "Not in our name! We refuse to allow a genocide to be carried out in the name of Judaism and our identity!"

Zionists: *umm well not those Jewish voices*

 

[theflying]

9 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

Zionists: *stfu and listen to Jewish voices!*

Jewish people against Israel: "Not in our name! We refuse to allow a genocide to be carried out in the name of Judaism and our identity!"

Zionists: *umm well not those Jewish voices*

 

Nope, this is not it.

 

Zionism is inherently connected to Jewish identity. That’s why many anti-Zionist Jews do not like what Israel does — *in the name of their identity*.

 

Furthermore, “Zionism” means a lot of different things to different people. It tells you literally nothing. An anti-Zionist Jew mean a ton of a different things.
 

If a Jewish person thinks Israel should be destroyed despite the Jewish people being targeted for extermination for over 2,000 years, have at it.

 

If, say, YOU are calling for Israel to be destroyed, what’s your excuse? Or do you need to hide behind Jews to give you an outlet for something that you know would be anti-Semitic?

Edited November 28, 2023 by theflying

[State of Grace.]

10 minutes ago, theflying said:

Nope, this is not it.

 

Zionism is inherently connected to Jewish identity. That’s why many anti-Zionist Jews do not like what Israel does — *in the name of their identity*.

 

Furthermore, “Zionism” means a lot of different things to different people. It tells you literally nothing. An anti-Zionist Jew mean a ton of a different things.
 

If a Jewish person thinks Israel should be destroyed despite the Jewish people being targeted for extermination for over 2,000 years, have at it.

 

If, say, YOU are calling for Israel to be destroyed, what’s your excuse? Or do you need to hide behind Jews to give you an outlet for something that you know would be anti-Semitic?

1) Zionism =/= Judaism. They are not the same thing and will never be. You can miss me with your cheap propaganda and lies.

2) Calling for the terrorist ethnostate of Israel to be dissolved and cease to exist =/= calling for the genocide of Israeli people.

 

Nobody has ever said that the citizens of Israel should all be murdered wtf. We're calling for a multiethnic democracy. A state with equal rights for all, with reparations for Palestinians and especially the right of return for the Palestinian diaspora who are still not allowed to visit their land. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by State of Grace.

[theflying]

There is no Zionism without Judaism. You’re trying to make brain-worm soup to avoid the obvious implications of what you’re trying to say, without any of the hateful connotations.

 

There is Judaism without Zionism.

There is no Zionism without Judaism.

You do not attain the authority on saying that an expression of Judaism is or is not anti-Semitic, especially when Jewish people have been oppressed the world over.

 

Israel is a national expression of Jewish identity. Calling for its elimination is *inherently animus against Jewish identity*. The land of Israel is literally in all the Jewish prayers, why the hell do you think Jewish people want to die for it?

 

Furthermore, there will never be a single state, because not only will there be a Civil War, Palestinian leadership is not interested in a democracy. You can’t have a democratic state if “half” the people literally don’t want it.

Edited November 28, 2023 by theflying

[State of Grace.]

 

I really should have known better and stopped entertaining it after last night's crazy posts...

[theflying]

That was the only correct answer -

to shut the hell up if you can’t stop making bigoted statements you’re not prepared to approach in good faith and with open ears. Good riddance.

 

Love that you ducked out because you couldn’t address the obvious flaw of Palestinians co-existing democratically with Israelis when they may not even want a democracy.

Edited November 28, 2023 by theflying

[ZIVERT]

It’s really ironic when users living in Middle Eastern countries with statistically LESS diverse populations than Israel want to talk about ethnostates, reparations, and lecture about what antisemitism is.

 

[theflying]

Literally Israel has more Arabs living within it as citizens than any of the surrounding Middle Eastern countries have Jews *combined*.

Edited November 28, 2023 by theflying

[Rob_Matteo]

43 minutes ago, theflying said:

Literally Israel has more Arabs living within it as citizens than any of the surrounding Middle Eastern countries have Jews *combined*.

 

47 minutes ago, theflying said:

That was the only correct answer -

to shut the hell up if you can’t stop making bigoted statements you’re not prepared to approach in good faith and with open ears. Good riddance.

 

Love that you ducked out because you couldn’t address the obvious flaw of Palestinians co-existing democratically with Israelis when they may not even want a democracy.

 

51 minutes ago, theflying said:

There is no Zionism without Judaism. You’re trying to make brain-worm soup to avoid the obvious implications of what you’re trying to say, without any of the hateful connotations.

 

There is Judaism without Zionism.

There is no Zionism without Judaism.

You do not attain the authority on saying that an expression of Judaism is or is not anti-Semitic, especially when Jewish people have been oppressed the world over.

 

Israel is a national expression of Jewish identity. Calling for its elimination is *inherently animus against Jewish identity*. The land of Israel is literally in all the Jewish prayers, why the hell do you think Jewish people want to die for it?

 

Furthermore, there will never be a single state, because not only will there be a Civil War, Palestinian leadership is not interested in a democracy. You can’t have a democratic state if “half” the people literally don’t want it.

 

1 hour ago, theflying said:

Nope, this is not it.

 

Zionism is inherently connected to Jewish identity. That’s why many anti-Zionist Jews do not like what Israel does — *in the name of their identity*.

 

Furthermore, “Zionism” means a lot of different things to different people. It tells you literally nothing. An anti-Zionist Jew mean a ton of a different things.
 

If a Jewish person thinks Israel should be destroyed despite the Jewish people being targeted for extermination for over 2,000 years, have at it.

 

If, say, YOU are calling for Israel to be destroyed, what’s your excuse? Or do you need to hide behind Jews to give you an outlet for something that you know would be anti-Semitic?

 

1 hour ago, theflying said:

Proud Zionist here — no, I do not endorse the settler movement. They’re racist Jewish supremecist.

 

No, Zionism is not “inherently genocidal”, anymore than Palestinians wanting a nation is “inherently anti-Semitic”.

 

Calling someone a Zionist does NOTHING to tell you about what they think about the Palestinian situation.

 

Why don’t people who are throwing the word Zionist around clarify about whether they think Israel should be destroyed?

 

Because if you think Israel should be destroyed, I would say, yeah, that’s a pretty anti-Semitic sentiment, unless you have a super good reason like you’re Palestinian and have been personally affected by Israel’s existence (as a poster or two in this thread has demonstrated).

stop talking to yourself 

[Rob_Matteo]

48 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

It’s really ironic when users living in Middle Eastern countries with statistically LESS diverse populations than Israel want to talk about ethnostates, reparations, and lecture about what antisemitism is.

 

“I know the Palestinian diaspora is banned from living in their homeland and Palestinians living there are living under apartheid but hear me out: it’s a DIVERSE apartheid”

 

Y’all are wild 

[ZIVERT]

1 minute ago, Rob_Matteo said:

“I know the Palestinian diaspora is banned from living in their homeland and Palestinians living there are living under apartheid but hear me out: it’s a DIVERSE apartheid”

 

Y’all are wild 

So now the goalpost has shifted from ethnostate to apartheid, those two terms are not interchangeable  Does Israel have a diverse population or not?!

[heckinglovato]

For the thick-headed Zionists, here's a good example of

 

Not anti-semitism:

3 hours ago, heckinglovato said:

European (and non-European) migrants displacing and killing my people to make space for their settler colony will never be okay or normal.

Actual anti-Semitism:

6 minutes ago, FreeXone said:

Hollywood is ruled by Jews. Mama is doing what she has to do lol

 

[Rob_Matteo]

2 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

So now the goalpost has shifted from ethnostate to apartheid, those two terms are not interchangeable  Does Israel have a diverse population or not?!

A racist ethnostate that values its Jewish citizens, and simultaneously a terrorist apartheid for the Arabs living there. But you already knew that. 

 

[ZIVERT]

2 minutes ago, Rob_Matteo said:

A racist ethnostate that values its Jewish citizens, and simultaneously a terrorist apartheid for the Arabs living there. But you already knew that. 

 

So why is a Jewish ethnostate (in which one in every five people is a non-Jewish, indigenous Arab) inherently worse than an Arab Muslim ethnostate? Please explain 

[Rob_Matteo]

1 minute ago, ZIVERT said:

So why is a Jewish ethnostate (in which one in every five people is a non-Jewish, indigenous Arab) inherently worse than an Arab Muslim ethnostate? Please explain 

Not entirely sure  might be the fact that it's a terrorist apartheid made up of settlers that ethnically cleansed millions of the original population and continues to ethnically cleanse them through genocide, illegal settlements, etc. and doesn't allow them back into their country while actively and demonstrably discriminating against, terrorizing, and murdering those who stayed

 

Or we're all just antisemitic, who knows honestly!