news France proposes 2 year prison sentences for those who criticize Israel & Zionism

[Delirious]

15 minutes ago, Dephira said:

Thread title: "criticizing" Israel or Zionism will carry a 2 year prison sentence

 

Actual reality: The proposed law is an amendment to article 23 of a law from 1881, protecting various groups of people from violent consequences of hate speech, and would simply add Anti-Zionism and Anti-Israel statement to the long existing law which is worded as such:

 

"Those who, either by speeches, shouts or threats uttered in public places or gatherings, or by writings, printed matter, drawings, engravings, paintings, emblems, images or any other written, spoken or pictorial material sold or distributed, offered for sale or exhibited in public places or meetings, or by placards or posters exposed to public view, or by any means of communication to the public by electronic means, will have directly provoked the perpetrator or perpetrators to commit one of these actions:

 

1° Intentional attacks on life, intentional attacks on the integrity of the person and sexual assaults, as defined in Book II of the Penal Code;

2° Theft, extortion and wilful destruction, damage or deterioration dangerous to persons, as defined in Book III of the French Penal Code."

 

 

In short, it will be punished if someone calls for action in such a way that directly causes intentional attacks on life or destruction of property of Jewish people. There are absolutely 0 words in this proposed law about consequences for "criticizing" Israel or Zionists. 

 

 

Who knew that sometimes it pays off to do research and not simply believe the first convenient Twitter account you find. I'm "sure" that mods will change the misleading title soon

oh wow interesting thanks for this. i was reading some of the quotes the guy posted and he said that simply showing hatred for israel will get you in jail. i guess i shouldve done better research

Edited November 3, 2023 by Delirious

[Digitalism]

This is really vague and will have the opposite effect they are expecting 

[Bosque]

Just now, Delirious said:

oh wow interesting thanks for this. i was reading some of the quotes the guy posted and he said that simply showing hatred for israel will get you in jail. i guess i shouldve done better research

We've all been there sis, especially if original texts are in a foreign language it's hard to know what's true and what isn't. 

 

The linked Twitter Account is a completely random person - not a journalist, not someone working in French or international politics, or a public policy analyst, or anything of the sort. Their latest tweet is a retweet saying that "The Uyghur genocide doesn't exist because exports from Xinjiang [the region where Uyghur Muslims live] are up year-over-year", so I think we all know why OP chose to follow and quote this particular Twitter account with 0 further research or evidence. There really should be a certain bar on the sources you have to quote when opening a new thread in Civics. 

[Delirious]

3 minutes ago, Dephira said:

We've all been there sis, especially if original texts are in a foreign language it's hard to know what's true and what isn't. 

 

The linked Twitter Account is a completely random person - not a journalist, not someone working in French or international politics, or a public policy analyst, or anything of the sort. Their latest tweet is a retweet saying that "The Uyghur genocide doesn't exist because exports from Xinjiang [the region where Uyghur Muslims live] are up year-over-year", so I think we all know why OP chose to follow and quote this particular Twitter account with 0 further research or evidence. There really should be a certain bar on the sources you have to quote when opening a new thread in Civics. 

I absolutely agree. Fake news is getting out of hand!

 

And Yikes I totally forgot but I wonder what @Communionhas to say on the Uyghur genocide happening in China?

[dawnettakins]

Sounds about right for the ass-backward country that is France. Among the worst in the west, it's such trash tbh.

 

They truly are the pits there huh.

 

EDIT: Looks like the thread was made for sensationalism and ill-informed facts. Doesn't change the reality about France.

 

The user in OP has a pretty clear agenda anyway and seemingly only goes to Twitter to look for everything confirming their views for how things are.

 

As if Twitter and tweets were the end-all anyway and you're supposed to just believe everything you read on Twitter. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by dawnettakins

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Dephira said:

Thread title: "criticizing" Israel or Zionism will carry a 2 year prison sentence

 

Actual reality: The proposed law is an amendment to article 23 of a law from 1881, protecting various groups of people from violent consequences of hate speech, and would simply add Anti-Zionism and Anti-Israel statement to the long existing law which is worded as such:

 

"Those who, either by speeches, shouts or threats uttered in public places or gatherings, or by writings, printed matter, drawings, engravings, paintings, emblems, images or any other written, spoken or pictorial material sold or distributed, offered for sale or exhibited in public places or meetings, or by placards or posters exposed to public view, or by any means of communication to the public by electronic means, will have directly provoked the perpetrator or perpetrators to commit one of these actions:

 

1° Intentional attacks on life, intentional attacks on the integrity of the person and sexual assaults, as defined in Book II of the Penal Code;

2° Theft, extortion and wilful destruction, damage or deterioration dangerous to persons, as defined in Book III of the French Penal Code."

 

 

In short, it will be punished if someone calls for action in such a way that directly causes intentional attacks on life or destruction of property of Jewish people. There are absolutely 0 words in this proposed law about consequences for "criticizing" Israel or Zionists. 

 

 

Who knew that sometimes it pays off to do research and not simply believe the first convenient Twitter account you find. I'm "sure" that mods will change the misleading title soon

I'm...literally not sure how you could have typed all that out and still found yourself as thinking you're right - but you're also a defender of the genocide of Palestinians, so your blind defense of this makes sense. 

 

First, Europeans must stop conflating Judaism and Zionism. Suggesting this is about harms to Jewish people is objectively untrue because non-Jews can be Zionists. And France already has a myriad of right hate speech laws criminalizing antisemitic hate speech. 

 

If an academic gives a speech and says that Israel is a settler colonial state and should not exist, such an amendment would allow for a politician to:

 - Argue that then that academic is responsible if then a hooligan goes and throws a rock through an Israeli bakery within France

- Argues that then that academic is responsible if then a protest occurs and a physical fight occurs between Palestinian and Israel protestors and a pro-Israel protestors is injured. 

 

What legal standards is used to measure when speech "directly provokes" actions when the speaker and the person doing the action are not the same?

 

For actual inalienable traits, this is a bit easier to understand. If someone said black *people* should not exist and black people should be ran out of France, those words are clear provocations. 

 

But Zionism is not a trait. Its a belief. And it's not even a belief of one's personhood like religion. It's literally a political ideology. So is disagreement then an attack or provocation against a political ideology? Is saying a Zionist ethno-state shouldn't exist an attack on those who want an ethno-state? Should Nazism and now also be a protected ideology?

 

"You're being misleading by not supporting my pro-Israel views!!!" 

 

Oh really? Let's ask one of the French politicians who introduced the amendment what the intention of the proposed amendment is:

 

"With 16 senators we demand the criminalization of anti-Zionism"

 

This is literally how French media has covered the proposal -  not one of anti-antisemitism but one of anti-anti-Zionism. 

 

You don't even deny that the proposal criminalizes being against Zionism - You're trying to rebuke the view that such limitations on criticizing a genocidal ideology is wrong. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Communion

[ugo]

it's important to say that this has been proposed by a right wing-centrist party and has not been voted yet.

[Bosque]

7 minutes ago, Communion said:

...

You typed all of this bullshit and literally didn't even address the fact that everything you claimed about this bill was factually incorrect

 

I'm sure if 50 neo-nazis stood outside the house of a gay person, and one of them shouted "let's storm this house and kill all gay inhabitants", and the other 49 of them destroyed the house and killed the gay people inside, you would be fully in favor of letting the 50th person go because he only "used his free speech". 

 

You are brainwashed beyond saving at this point 

 

I'm not surprised that you don't know any French, but I am a bit surprised that even you would go so far as to pretend you don't know how to use Google Translate or Deepl to translate an actual text of law 

 

Quote

If an academic gives a speech and says that Israel is a settler colonial state and should not exist, such an amendment would allow for a politician to:

 - Argue that then that academic is responsible if then a hooligan goes and throws a rock through an Israeli bakery within France

- Argues that then that academic is responsible if then a protest occurs and a physical fight occurs between Palestinian and Israel protestors and a pro-Israel protestors is injured. 

No it wouldn't and I literally provided an English translation of the actual bill which disproves your blatant lies. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Dephira

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Delirious said:

oh wow interesting thanks for this. i was reading some of the quotes the guy posted and he said that simply showing hatred for israel will get you in jail. i guess i shouldve done better research

The user is a right-wing fascist and objectively lying.

 

Notice how the title mentions 2 years and yet they only tried to add clarity for what crimes would justify a 5 year sentencing?

 

Quote

The proposed bill, which was submitted for a first reading in the Senate, includes penalties for various offenses related to anti-Zionism. It seeks to punish those who deny the existence of the State of Israel with one year of imprisonment and a fine of EUR 45,000.

Quote

Those who insult the State of Israel would face two years imprisonment and a fine of EUR 75,000,

Quote

and those who directly provoke hatred or violence against the State of Israel with five years of imprisonment and a fine of EUR 100,000.

The proposal also seeks to dissolve left wing political parties and organizations. 

 

Quote

Senator Le Rudulier has also called for the dissolution of La France Insoumise, as well as parties that have advocated terrorism and Hamas, which he says call for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews.

https://tvpworld.com/73868393/french-senators-propose-bill-to-make-zionism-criticism-a-criminal-offence

[Communion]

31 minutes ago, Dephira said:

You typed all of this bullshit and literally didn't even address the fact that everything you claimed about this bill was factually incorrect an actual text of law 

Quote

Richard Wagman, the honorary president of the French Jewish Union for Peace (UJFP), has criticized the conflation, emphasizing that anti-Semitism is a form of racial discrimination and hatred, while Zionism and anti-Zionism are political ideas.

Someone saying "let's kill all gay people" is not the same thing as someone "defaming" Israel by calling it an apartheid state and calling for the occupation of Palestine to end, you troll.  

 

You're literally advocating that holding the view that Israel is an apartheid state is akin to calling for the murder of not just all Israelis but seemingly all Jewish people.

 

Israel is a settler state that should not exist and trying to criminalize this view with draconian laws that censor speech with the threat of imprisonment by conflating disagreement with a political ideology and hate speech is obscene and in itself antisemitic, you belligerent fascist. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Communion

[Communion]

36 minutes ago, Dephira said:

No it wouldn't and I literally provided an English translation of the actual bill which disproves your blatant lies. 

Article 25 of the law of July 29, 1881 on freedom of the press is thus reinstated:

“ Art. 25 . – Those who contest, by one of the means set out in article 23, the existence of the State of Israel will be punished with one year of imprisonment and a fine of 45,000 euros.

“Insult committed against the State of Israel, by one of the means set out in the same article 23, is punishable by two years of imprisonment and a fine of 75,000 euros.

“Those who, by the same means, directly provoke hatred or violence against the State of Israel will be punished by five years of imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 euros.

https://www.senat.fr/leg/ppl23-021.html

 

You're advocating for the criminalization of "defaming" a genocidal political belief. 

 

An objectively true view like "Israel is a racist society" is not the same thing as advocating people to commit mass violence that then someone who espouses that view should be viewed as responsible for causing.

 

Israel is a racist society. 

Israel is an apartheid state.

Israel is committing genocide.

Israel as an ethno-state should not exist. 

None of these views are hate speech nor can you accuse them of inspiring hate crimes. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Communion

[CaptainMusic]

Absolutely disgraceful 

[Gottasadae]

What about free speech and democracy  There's a lot of lies from both sides so they shouldn't act like Israel is some kind of saint 

[State of Grace.]

"You can’t convince yesterday’s colonizer that today’s colonizer is wrong"

 

Colonialist solidarity is so real. "liberté, égalité, fraternité!" my ass  

[bad guy]

Most unsurprising French news ever 

[Luner45]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:08 AM, Mr.X said:

All of this just so Israel can mass-murder Palestinians at their will. No longer can France, UK and Germany call themselves democracies or champions of civility. Not that they ever were, but the facade is truly and deeply broken.

You can add United States and Canada to this list as well. Never in my life have I seen massive protests where the general public is against every level of government about Israel and yet they are ignored.

 

Trudeau is finished in my eyes and I'll never let this go. 

[Letemtalk]

The French committed war crimes and genocide in Algeria, so I'm not surprised at all. Before you say that was hundreds of years ago, this continued into the Algerian War of Independence into the 1960s. France supporting genocide is really the most French thing.

[Anthinos]

Good  They should also start sending immigrants who are against Israel back. It's crazy how naive and blind the political left has become. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Anthinos

[State of Grace.]

20 minutes ago, Anthinos said:

Good  They should also start sending immigrants who are against Israel back. It's crazy how naive and blind the political left has become. 

Interesting....weren't you scared of the far right taking over Europe?

 

On 11/4/2023 at 7:12 PM, Anthinos said:

The Pro-Palestine protests in Germany have really opened my eyes. I'm honestly scared. The political left is clearly blind when it comes to Islamism and many leftists genuinely hate the West. I would never vote for a right wing party but I don't feel comfortable voting for the left either. At least in Germany every party supports Israel but still. We need to have an open discussion about certain topics. The left needs to stop suger-coating Islamism. We literally have people here wanting a caliphate. This war is bigger than just Israel/Palestine and I'm afraid it's going to help the far right in Europe.

Look at you now aligning yourself with far-right rhetoric of "sending immigrants back to their countries". Yikes!

[LookinAssHittas]

21 minutes ago, Anthinos said:

Good  They should also start sending immigrants who are against Israel back. It's crazy how naive and blind the political left has become. 

Why should immigrants who are against Zionism & the State of Israel be deported?

[State of Grace.]

1 minute ago, LookinAssHittas said:

Why should immigrants who are against Zionism & the State of Israel be deported?

Because according to his naive little brain Supporting Palestine = Islam = Immigrants = Enemies of Europe  

[Femalien]

frog-eatin snail-slurpers!

[Minogue]

Anti Zionism = Anti Semitism 

[Embustera]

There’s really something wrong with France. I really feel sorry for the minorities who live there..

[bjorn]