base talk NYT lists songs from 'pop music middle class' that deserve to be hits

[LittleStarmen]

Big Pop is mostly a very young person game nowadays. See how taylor has this massive sucess because she can still appeal to 12 yo. 

[vale9001]

25 minutes ago, LittleStarmen said:

Big Pop is mostly a very young person game nowadays. See how taylor has this massive sucess because she can still appeal to 12 yo. 

12 yo old spending 1.4b dollars on a tour. Which average media of audience Is like 30 years old.

 

Meanwhile Britney and Christina and Avril music back in early 2000s was listenen by over 25 people. 

 

The most stupid thing i ever heard 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by vale9001

[Letemtalk]

7 hours ago, AMIT said:

What is their point exactly? I would read it but it's behind a paywall. 

Perhaps it was free when it was first posted online.

 

Spoiler

There might be some law about circumvention of technological barriers to content in the land of the free. But if you live elsewhere you might try a) delete cookies or b) try the internet archive, one of those should work.

 

[rihannafan]

Ava Max is pop royalty

[Saint James]

9 hours ago, GraceRandolph said:

A lot of these publications are to blame. They’ve basically spent the last decade venerating Taylor and Beyoncé while paying artists like Cupcakke, Charli, and Carly dust. 

hope cupcakke is paying u for these promos.

[Kern]

4 minutes ago, Saint James said:

hope cupcakke is paying u for these promos.

putting Cupcakke in the same sentence with Charli and Carly sent me flying 

[GraceRandolph]

2 hours ago, Saint James said:

hope cupcakke is paying u for these promos.

 

2 hours ago, the70s said:

putting Cupcakke in the same sentence with Charli and Carly sent me flying 

Cupcakke is literally featured on Charli’s Pop 2, as was CRJ. It’s not a reach to group them at all.

[abrantino]

There's a new paywalled article that refers to the one posted in the OP.

They made some good choices for Rina & Caroline at least, but should've been 'Ghost' for Ava.

 

Quote

 

Dear listeners,

On Monday, The Times published a piece by the critic Shaad D’Souza that asked a question I’ve been pondering a lot over the past decade: “What happens when a pop star isn’t that popular?”

 

D’Souza created a taxonomy of a relatively varied assortment of musicians — among them Carly Rae Jepsen, Charli XCX, Kim Petras, Troye Sivan and Rita Ora — who embrace pop musical sounds and command devoted, internet-savvy fan bases but still operate below the visibility of “major” pop stars like Taylor Swift and Beyoncé. “For these artists,” D’Souza writes, “pop stardom isn’t a commercial category, but a sound, an aesthetic and an attitude.”

 

“Pop,” though, is of course short for “popular,” and some purists might dismiss D’Souza’s question as a futile thought experiment: If a tree in a forest releases a single that fails to crack the Hot 100, does it even make a sound? And with detractors quick to label any perceived misstep as evidence that a pop star has entered her flop era, success and failure can now feel like an irreversible binary.

 

But there are plenty of gray areas, too, and I appreciate the optimism of D’Souza’s conclusion: Hey, it’s a living. “It may be miles away from the spectacle and flash usually associated with pop music," he writes of this broad career trajectory, “but it does provide a path toward something that, for decades, has proved elusive for a lot of aspirant pop stars: career sustainability.”

 

The article made me think of something I mentioned in last Friday’s newsletter: Jepsen’s recent sets at Rockwood Music Hall (save it, please!), a tiny venue into which she crammed 150 fans at a time after her outdoor concert at the larger Pier 17 was cut short because of weather. Jepsen seemed to be having a ball leading direct-to-fan singalongs with her frenzied devotees, who may not fill Swift-sized arenas, but who nevertheless adore her. With Eras Tour tickets either impossible to come by or prohibitively expensive anyway, maybe pledging allegiance to a pop star with a more modestly sized fan base is, these days, the more sustainable way to stan.

 

Though D’Souza makes the argument that the majority of these performers operate in a relatively safe pop playground, adjusted commercial ambitions also free up many of these artists to stop chasing fickle chart trends and make bolder, stranger and more sonically adventurous pop music. I want to celebrate that freedom on today’s playlist, which culls some of my favorite songs from a few of the artists D’Souza affectionately called “pop’s middle class.”

 

My personal favorites of these are-they-actually-pop stars are generally the more outré ones: the eternal club kid Charli XCX, the vocally dexterous former Chairlift frontwoman Caroline Polachek and the genre-omnivorous British-Japanese musician Rina Sawayama. But, as you’ll hear, I appreciate a solid Jepsen banger as much as the next Jepfriend.

Listen along on Spotify as you read.

1. Carly Rae Jepsen: “Surrender My Heart”

One of my favorite songs from Jepsen’s 2022 album, “The Loneliest Time,” “Surrender My Heart” — a surging synth-pop tune about how difficult it can be to open up to the possibility of new love — has one of Jepsen’s signature anthemic choruses and even some of her wry humor: “I paid to toughen up in therapy/She said to me, ‘soften up.’” (Listen on YouTube)

2. Troye Sivan, “Rush”

The lusty, effervescent “Rush” is the first single from the Australian musician Sivan’s upcoming album “Something to Give Each Other.” Sivan was one of the few cast members not to embarrass himself on HBO’s recent narratively challenged series “The Idol”; it remains to be seen if that increased visibility will push him closer to pop’s A-list. (Listen on YouTube)

3. Caroline Polachek: “Welcome to My Island”

Maybe one of my favorite pop choruses in years? Every time I hear it, I want to shout it off the top of the mountain like the guy from that Ricola commercial: “DESIIIIIIIIIIRE! I want to turn into you!” That lyric from “Welcome to My Island” also gives Polachek’s latest album — easily one of my most-played of 2023 — its charmingly ridiculous title. (Listen on YouTube)

4. Charli XCX: “Constant Repeat”

“I’m cute and I’m rude with kind of rare attitude,” Charli XCX sings, summing up her own unruly musical personality on this highlight from her sleek 2022 album “Crash,” which lets a flighty would-be lover know exactly what they missed out on. (Listen on YouTube)

5. Ava Max: “Million Dollar Baby”

At her best, Ava Max sounds like Lady Gaga would if she were still making “Fame Monster” B-sides in 2023. I mean this as a compliment; in my opinion, most pop songs should sound like they could have been included on “The Fame Monster.” Ava Max’s biggest hit, “Sweet but Psycho” from 2019, certainly fits this description, but I’m also a fan of this driving 2022 single, which cleverly employs an interpolation of LeAnn Rimes’s 2000 “Coyote Ugly” smash “Can’t Fight the Moonlight.” (Listen on YouTube)

6. Troye Sivan, “Rager Teenager!”

This wistful track, from the 2020 EP “In a Dream,” shows off the softer, sparser side of Sivan’s dreamy pop. It also would have worked as an entry on last month’s exclamatory playlist! (Listen on YouTube)

7. Rina Sawayama: “Bad Friend”

Man, I love this one. File it under “incredibly common life experiences that no one really writes pop songs about”; Sawayama’s wrenching “Bad Friend” chronicles, to the tune of a beautifully melancholy melody, the gradual erosion of a once-close friendship. “So don’t ask me where I’ve been, been avoiding everything,” Sawayama sings, before finding solace in a chorus of people confessing that they can relate: “Put your hands up if you’re not good at this stuff.” (Listen on YouTube)

8. Carly Rae Jepsen: “Cut to the Feeling”

Jepsen — bless her — has an unfortunate tendency to bury some of her best work, and it’s possible that has hampered her ability to achieve another pop radio smash. Consider that the single she released after “Call Me Maybe” was a painfully twee duet with the guy from Owl City (if you don’t remember Owl City, I’m jealous of your brain), or that she kicked off her “Emotion” era by releasing as a leadoff single that excellent album’s very worst song, “I Really Like You.” (At least she got Tom Hanks in the video.) “Cut to the Feeling,” from 2015, is an absolutely perfect, ecstatic, 10-out-of-10 pop song, and if you have never heard of it before that’s because it was released on the soundtrack of a Canadian-French animated film called “Ballerina.” At least you get to hear it now! (Listen on YouTube)

9. Charli XCX: “Track 10”

Many of Charli’s Angels — this one included — consider the gleefully forward-thinking 2017 mixtape “Pop 2” to be Charli’s magnum opus (so far) and this epic finale to be one of her most successful experiments. D’Souza highlights Charli as a musician who has straddled the worlds of mainstream pop and its more risk-taking underground, and a clear distillation of that contrast can be heard in the two different versions she’d recorded of one particular song. “Blame It on Your Love,” from her 2019 album “Charli,” is a glossy, radio-friendly tropical house jam, complete with a by-the-numbers guest verse from Lizzo. “Track 10,” though, is something else: A wildly weird deconstruction of a pop song, culminating in an escalating bridge that sounds like it’s being sung by a malfunctioning laser printer. Some songs are so special that something would be lost by even giving them a title. So this one, fittingly, is just “Track 10.” (Listen on YouTube)

 

 

[Inverted]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:36 PM, Jaded. said:

"Pop's middle class" is such a problematic statement like... whoever wrote this is a mess and indirectly insulted their middle class readers. Yikes. 

 

It just seems like such an unfortunate way to think about music consumption like it's a ranking system. These writers really suck all of the fun and pure joy out of music sometimes.

 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:39 PM, SLIME said:

Yes it's icky to me too. They're getting a little close to telling on themselves.

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:43 PM, onapearl said:

...There's nothing wrong with being middle-class. 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:44 PM, Archetype said:

This article reads like this NY Times author just discovered what an "indie" artist is. 

They have notable cultural impact but little to no major commercial success, large dedicated followings but don't make purely commercial music.

 

But she stays majorly acclaimed and talented 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:45 PM, wish said:

The article is a kii and all, but… it’s kinda sad that these major news sources would NEVER write about a smaller artist unless it’s to make fun of them and devalue their art as “middle class”

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:49 PM, worldwide angel said:

the new york times is so tacky 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:53 PM, Blade Runner said:

And of course most of the examples are women (and a bottom top). So pathetic. 

 

What a weird way to frame an otherwise interesting conversation about success. Not everything is for the masses and not everyone has the opportunity to be f+cking Taylor Swift. It's okay to be niche and that's something it enriches culture in general. The NYT should know better. 

 

So nasty. 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 6:55 PM, Mitsouko said:

I don’t even like these broads but what’s wrong with a “middle class” in pop music? **** does that even mean? Using that term as if being middle class means you have less integrity and are deserving of less respect than someone richer or more successful than you?

 

The Times BEEN a bunch of snobs. 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 7:07 PM, NewStanner said:

And since when being "middle-class" is wrong...? This article is so pathetic  and try-hard

 

On 8/14/2023 at 7:04 PM, dangerousalex said:

a really lame article in all honesty 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 7:09 PM, ZIVERT said:

This. And the industry has the gall to complain about a lack of stars, and then they write about pop artists who actually care about their art like this  

 

On 8/14/2023 at 7:16 PM, Cameltoe Chariot said:

CRJ being included in this mess is so f*cking disrespectful and unnecessary  as if she isn't outdoing all her peers in quality alone.

 

But I guess being able to sell "screen view only" tickets for $500+ is more impressive than being a "middle class pop star" 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 7:23 PM, nadiamendell said:

Would the publication that double-endorsed Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren for president lie? 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 8:09 PM, The7thStranger said:

The quality of writing at the New York Times has taken such a profound hit that I don't consider it a cornerstone of journalism or publishing. It's a few steps above a trash rag at this point.

 

On 8/14/2023 at 9:28 PM, samsclubPRESENTSavam said:

I would rather listen to a middle class pop girl than an upper one that runs her perfectly fine albums into the ground but okay.

 

On 8/14/2023 at 9:49 PM, aesthetic bih said:

Well, that "middle class pop" is better than streaming white flavorless men music

 

On 8/14/2023 at 9:50 PM, Nights said:

Yeah so what exactly is the point of this article now? That some artists exist who aren't the megastar A-listers and that those artists also have fans, and that's somehow something to make fun of? Kinda weird...

 

On 8/14/2023 at 10:26 PM, Matthew4815 said:

This mess

 

On 8/14/2023 at 10:35 PM, Digitalism said:

So they are admiting they give more hype to certain artist and less to others not because of the quality but because it doesn't get clicks? We been knew 

 

On 8/14/2023 at 10:47 PM, TYMPS said:

nytimes been a rag for a minute, but this is a new low

Some of you really need to try this thing called reading (and thinking) before commenting. Also, try reading beneath the surface first.

 

a) The article does NOT insult any of these artists. In fact, Shaad D'Souza (the writer) is clearly a fan of them. The whole article was written because he likes them, but notices a a contradiction; although they seem popular online, they're not popular on charts or in real life with the mainstream population internationally. There is nothing derogatory about that observation... it's obvious.

 

b) D'Souza writer is NOT a New York Times journalist or staff writer. He's guest music critic who's (not shockingly) a young gay British Asian male who loves female-sung pop music.

 

c) The music industry and music critics are two different industries. The music industry complaining about lack of stars and a music critic commenting that indie pop girls seem huge online, but aren't irl is not some contradiction.

 

d) Music critics don't praise Taylor and Beyonce while ignoring indie pop acts. In fact, they're the ones who constantly praise indie pop acts and make acts like Carly Rae Jepsen seem like a big deal so the idea that major publications don't support non-A list artists isn't true at all.  

 

e) All the users being offended by "middle class" is so strange. There's a hierarchy in everything. Right here on ATRL users have traditionally mock "flop" artists. Just because you don't use terms like "class" don't mean it doesn't exist. And there is nothing wrong with being middle class or lower class.

[fridayteenage]

Quote

 Sivan was one of the few cast members not to embarrass himself on HBO’s recent narratively challenged series “The Idol”;

high praise

[worldwide angel]

[Cameltoe Chariot]

1 hour ago, Inverted said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of you really need to try this thing called reading (and thinking) before commenting. Also, try reading beneath the surface first.

 

a) The article does NOT insult any of these artists. In fact, Shaad D'Souza (the writer) is clearly a fan of them. The whole article was written because he likes them, but notices a a contradiction; although they seem popular online, they're not popular on charts or in real life with the mainstream population internationally. There is nothing derogatory about that observation... it's obvious.

 

b) D'Souza writer is NOT a New York Times journalist or staff writer. He's guest music critic who's (not shockingly) a young gay British Asian male who loves female-sung pop music.

 

c) The music industry and music critics are two different industries. The music industry complaining about lack of stars and a music critic commenting that indie pop girls seem huge online, but aren't irl is not some contradiction.

 

d) Music critics don't praise Taylor and Beyonce while ignoring indie pop acts. In fact, they're the ones who constantly praise indie pop acts and make acts like Carly Rae Jepsen seem like a big deal so the idea that major publications don't support non-A list artists isn't true at all.  

 

e) All the users being offended by "middle class" is so strange. There's a hierarchy in everything. Right here on ATRL users have traditionally mock "flop" artists. Just because you don't use terms like "class" don't mean it doesn't exist. And there is nothing wrong with being middle class or lower class.

 

[Blade Runner]

3 hours ago, Inverted said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of you really need to try this thing called reading (and thinking) before commenting. Also, try reading beneath the surface first.

 

a) The article does NOT insult any of these artists. In fact, Shaad D'Souza (the writer) is clearly a fan of them. The whole article was written because he likes them, but notices a a contradiction; although they seem popular online, they're not popular on charts or in real life with the mainstream population internationally. There is nothing derogatory about that observation... it's obvious.

 

b) D'Souza writer is NOT a New York Times journalist or staff writer. He's guest music critic who's (not shockingly) a young gay British Asian male who loves female-sung pop music.

 

c) The music industry and music critics are two different industries. The music industry complaining about lack of stars and a music critic commenting that indie pop girls seem huge online, but aren't irl is not some contradiction.

 

d) Music critics don't praise Taylor and Beyonce while ignoring indie pop acts. In fact, they're the ones who constantly praise indie pop acts and make acts like Carly Rae Jepsen seem like a big deal so the idea that major publications don't support non-A list artists isn't true at all.  

 

e) All the users being offended by "middle class" is so strange. There's a hierarchy in everything. Right here on ATRL users have traditionally mock "flop" artists. Just because you don't use terms like "class" don't mean it doesn't exist. And there is nothing wrong with being middle class or lower class.

The framing was DUMB as hell. 

[Achilles.]

I get what the article was going for because this is something I think about often given that a lot of my favorite acts fall into this category.

I do think “middle class pop star” is a misleading and potentially flamebaity label to apply to them, though. “Niche pop” or even just “middle-tier” resolves that issue. 

[The7thStranger]

6 hours ago, Inverted said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of you really need to try this thing called reading (and thinking) before commenting. Also, try reading beneath the surface first.

 

a) The article does NOT insult any of these artists. In fact, Shaad D'Souza (the writer) is clearly a fan of them. The whole article was written because he likes them, but notices a a contradiction; although they seem popular online, they're not popular on charts or in real life with the mainstream population internationally. There is nothing derogatory about that observation... it's obvious.

 

b) D'Souza writer is NOT a New York Times journalist or staff writer. He's guest music critic who's (not shockingly) a young gay British Asian male who loves female-sung pop music.

 

c) The music industry and music critics are two different industries. The music industry complaining about lack of stars and a music critic commenting that indie pop girls seem huge online, but aren't irl is not some contradiction.

 

d) Music critics don't praise Taylor and Beyonce while ignoring indie pop acts. In fact, they're the ones who constantly praise indie pop acts and make acts like Carly Rae Jepsen seem like a big deal so the idea that major publications don't support non-A list artists isn't true at all.  

 

e) All the users being offended by "middle class" is so strange. There's a hierarchy in everything. Right here on ATRL users have traditionally mock "flop" artists. Just because you don't use terms like "class" don't mean it doesn't exist. And there is nothing wrong with being middle class or lower class.

Wild, wild assumptions being made in this post that warrant no further response.

[Inverted]

19 hours ago, The7thStranger said:

Wild, wild assumptions being made in this post that warrant no further response.

"Wild, wild assumptions"? All those things I stated in my post are stated in the opinion piece. You can even search up the writer's social media accounts and previous articles he's written. All the artists he listens to are the artists mentioned in the article.

 

Or are you referring to the part where I commented on the inability of most people on here to actually READ and THINK, especially beyond clickbait titles and anything service level?

[GreatestLoveofAll]

pop's middle class is just down right mean