SCOTUS 6-3 rules Affirmative Action over in higher education admissions

[CottageHore]

I’ve always been in support of affirmative action as I’m very liberal, but tbh I don’t know much about what the actual bill states. Can anybody educate and enlighten me on what the actual bill or set of laws says? And can someone explain why they believe this is detrimental (without too much bias) on an ethical and systemic level?

[Chiidish]

11 minutes ago, Espresso said:

Part of Ketanji's dissent  

Ketanji 

[magic]

This is so messed up 

 

I hope admissions can somehow get around this. I know for a fact that my privilege as a white person has given me a lot of advantage in my ability to be successful in my educational pursuits solely bc of my race, where I grew up/what school district, not having to face discrimination, having access to tutors/good college counselors etc. etc. . Things like this absolutely need to be accounted for bc of the systems and institutions of our society. 

[Velvet Night]

Awful news. It’s actually really good to have a diversity of backgrounds in academia because it means a greater range of experiences and therefore ideas. If you just judge on cold metrics, specific social backgrounds get in like 95% of the time. And these are people from social backgrounds that if they dont go to Harvard or Yale, will still succeed after graduation. The only effect these sorts of things have is to make research in the next decade or two more biased in terms of the topics and methods of study.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Velvet Night

[waylon4ever]

1 minute ago, magic said:

This is so messed up 

 

I hope admissions can somehow get around this. I know for a fact that my privilege as a white person has given me a lot of advantage in my ability to be successful in my educational pursuits solely bc of my race, where I grew up/what school district, not having to face discrimination, having access to tutors/good college counselors etc. etc. . Things like this absolutely need to be accounted for bc of the systems and institutions of our society. 

How is it messed up when this is allowed in Liberal Land

The University of California is already prohibited from using race as an admissions factor under ballot measures approved by voters in 1996 and 2020. Eight other states have followed California's lead in forbidding race-conscious admissions policies at state universities, including Michigan, Florida and Washington.24 mins ago

[VOSS]

Eh California banned AA and they’ve been able to get more diverse classes through outreach programs to disadvantaged communities, etc. Probably a better way to do it anyway

 

Harvard was very passionate about this, let’s see if they put their money where their mouth is and end legacy admissions 

[Vermillion]

4 minutes ago, VOSS said:

Eh California banned AA and they’ve been able to get more diverse classes through outreach programs to disadvantaged communities, etc. Probably a better way to do it anyway

 

Harvard was very passionate about this, let’s see if they put their money where their mouth is and end legacy admissions 

We're talking apples and oranges though.

 

California's had time to make adjustments with their prestigious public system. The higher-up privates elsewhere have built their entire structure and culture around this and it's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people in that system. 

[Rotunda]

Ngl as a Black person born to a decent amount of privilege, I’ve thought for a while schools should have shifted more towards First Gen/Low Income forms of affirmative action rather than race-based (which still would produce a racially diverse class).

 

With that said, part of the value of affirmative action was the fact that it made the campus experience a lot less harrowing. Underrepresented minority students need a network of people who they can relate to on campus. Absent that, you end up with college campuses full of minorities who are insecure with their identity.

 

 

I’ll also say, as someone who went to a school with a sub-10% acceptance rate, the water in the admissions office is not clean. Half the Black men at these mid-sized/small private schools are athletes - they are not competing for normal slots. Early Decision skews stats massively and only benefits people who are poor enough to know they have guaranteed aid or rich enough to know they’re willing to pay sticker price. The push for schools to be test optional has made admissions more of a craps shoot. Legacies/Donors still run things. Kids are applying to 20+ schools, artificially lowering admission rates. Kids from underrepresented states (e.g: Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming) get a big boost when applying for schools. The whole thing is asinine.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Rotunda

[Ryan]

White women are the beneficiaries of affirmative action so they deserve what they get. 

[Rotunda]

Also I know some schools like Duke utilized an optional diversity essay back in the day. This seems to still be allowed as a proxy?

[Vermillion]

2 minutes ago, Rotunda said:

Also I know some schools like Duke utilized an optional diversity essay back in the day. This seems to still be allowed as a proxy?

This was already addressed by some lawyer recently whose name I can't recall. Roberts tried to give himself leeway in this ruling but the language is so broad that the ongoing applicability of something like this is impossible now. Nevermind that it would take too much time, money and manpower that these institutions aren't going to think is worth it to dodge this ruling. 

[Vermillion]

10 minutes ago, Rotunda said:

I’ll also say, as someone who went to a school with a sub-10% acceptance rate, the water in the admissions office is not clean. Half the Black men at these mid-sized/small private schools are athletes - they are not competing for normal slots. Early Decision skews stats massively and only benefits people who are poor enough to know they have guaranteed aid or rich enough to know they’re willing to pay sticker price. The push for schools to be test optional has made admissions more of a crap shoot. Legacies/Donors still run things. Kids are applying to 20+ schools, artificially lowering admission rates. Kids from underrepresented states (e.g: Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming) get a big boost when applying for schools. The whole thing is asinine.

All great points. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Samson]

It's going to be very funny next year when certain people who are celebrating this will still sell out any semblance of having a life to get a 1500 on the SAT only to be rejected by Harvard 

 

(They'll just jump straight to explicit, vocal racism this time)

[Mordecai]

As a POC affirmative action can be a topic that I don't always agree with as a solution, but the reality is that we don't have any alternative solutions to the racial inequity problem that have been proven to work so affirmative action will just have to do.

 

People need to understand that it's not just 'about race'. Race may only be a social construct and isn't as oppressive today as it was decades before, but it has still created very real inequitable social outcomes that need to be addressed.

[DONTYELLATME]

 

[Sombre]

Well, if that's the case, then legacy admissions should be revoked too. Let's see how the tRaDiTioNaL fAMiLiEs will like this one. 

[Vermillion]

3 minutes ago, DONTYELLATME said:

 

I made the same argument after Roe fell that the poverty to military pipeline will never be disturbed by neocons. It's too sacred. 

 

That in so many ways applies here too. 

[G.U.Y. Gaga]

To be fair they will just not release the data in private schools 

 

they already kind of do this with by not having test scores in most of thoughs schools now 

[Vermillion]

1 hour ago, Erotic said:

To my knowledge, the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action have been Caucasian females 

That is correct.  

[Samson]

1 hour ago, Rotunda said:

Also I know some schools like Duke utilized an optional diversity essay back in the day. This seems to still be allowed as a proxy?

I read the decision and I think so…? Or at least discussion of race in essays is still allowed:

 

"At the same time, nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life, so long as that discussion is concretely tied to a quality of character or unique ability that the particular applicant can contribute to the university."

"A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student’s courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student’s unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race."

 

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf

[ClashAndBurn]

2 hours ago, Espresso said:

The irony is all anyone's going to see in Ivy League's now based on this logic is Asian students. 

 

Unless the schools have already found ways around this such as cover letters. 

They’re considered by white supremacists to be the “model minority” so that’s not that big of a deal to them. Their only concerns are making sure that black Americans are kept impoverished and that Latinos are kept out of the country altogether.

[Vermillion]

8 minutes ago, Samson said:

I read the decision and I think so…? Or at least discussion of race in essays is still allowed:

 

"At the same time, nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life, so long as that discussion is concretely tied to a quality of character or unique ability that the particular applicant can contribute to the university."

"A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student’s courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student’s unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race."

 

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf

But there is going to be a lawsuit on this exact premise, following the exact logic in this ruling. In essays. 

 

It may not have happened in this ruling, but this opens the door for it to be challenged. Roberts knows this.

[Vermillion]

Just now, ClashAndBurn said:

They’re considered by white supremacists to be the “model minority” so that’s not that big of a deal to them. Their only concerns are making sure that black Americans are kept impoverished and that Latinos are kept out of the country altogether.

Asians may be considered the model minority by neocons and neolibs, but that romantic notion doesn't hold power with their base of populists nor outside agitators like progressives. 

 

Except the conservative populists are against higher education altogether which works to the neocons advantage in those positions of power. 

 

Which means it comes down to progressives challenging the neolibs in power, yet again, to make any difference. But there's too much chaos elsewhere to dedicate energy to this issue. And many are making arguments about stopping the Ivy's from holding so much cultural sway anyways so this symbolic conversation would be considered irrelevant. 

[Rotunda]

 

[Katamari]

This will mean less white ppl in higher education now