discussion Abbas Meets Putin: Distrusts USA as Sole Mediator in Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[ZIVERT]

3 hours ago, Nano said:

That's the reality of the situation. A two-state solution is currently impossible and is not what the Palestinians want. The alternative, where it becomes one big "free" country, would never happen without revolutionary methods and, if successful, would result in the surviving Jews being forced to leave. And thus the world would have another refugee crisis on its hands.

I think people don’t realize that reality. Israel is the only “Jewish” state not because they think they’re better than everyone and want an “ethnically pure” ethnostate, but because it wasn’t really safe to be Jewish anywhere else prior to Israel’s. 2000 years of being a disastrous community around different parts of Europe and North Africa, pogroms, and then the Holocaust killing 2/3 of the European Jews… Then there were Jews that were kicked out of Middle Eastern countries despite living there for centuries. Returning to their ancestral homeland and establishing a state for themselves was an act of preservation. The State of Israel doesn’t exist because of the genocide and discrimination of Jews, but in spite of it.
 

One can say antisemitism doesn’t exist anymore and that Israel serves no purpose, but we all know that isn’t true. Kanye West was literally tweeting antisemitic conspiracy theories on Twitter, and was being welcomed back by Elon Musk… There was even an article about a hotel owner in Bethlehem shutting down Filipino tourist’s religious event just because their hotel decided to display a Star of David in the lobby - the owner said “We don’t allow Jews here.” Even worse, armed gunmen from the Fatah party - Mahmoud Abbas’ party, the president of Palestine - came to shut down that hotel even after the star was removed. They said ““We will strike with an iron fist against anyone who holds a normalization meeting, whether in Bethlehem or any other part of the homeland. The revolution will continue until the liberation of all the Palestinian lands.” All of this over just a symbol of Judaism, without any actual Jews or Israelis being involved. It’s more than just intolerance, that’s state sanctioned antisemitism. 

I know it’s easy to look at articles of Israeli soldiers killing kids and to paint them as monsters, and I’m sure my post will be replied to with some variation of pointing out dead Palestinian children and/or “Israel is a disgusting apartheid state.” It’s horrible when a child dies cruelly and unnecessarily, I am against that completely. As I am settlements and protection of settlers, I think that only serves to exasperate the problem and instigate further. But to think that a single state of Palestine will be a safe place for the Jews living there, after decades of animosity and violence on both sides, you would be kidding yourself.

[ClashAndBurn]

13 hours ago, Nano said:

Shut the **** up. A whole freaking coalition of Arab countries attacked Israel in 1947 and the US and UK didn't do a damn thing to help. Only reason Israel is still standing today is because of Israeli soldiers who defended their country.

 

Guess what, "getting out" isn't an option for many of us either, genius.

Your family chose to move there and displace the people who were already living there. You’re… expecting them to not fight back against your illegal occupation supported by countries who had no legitimate claim to the land other than their crumbling empire that was already losing its grip there? Genius.

[Nano]

22 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Your family chose to move there

You don't know **** about me or my family. My grandparents on both sides escaped from the USSR to get here and lost their previous citizenship in the process. My father literally tried and failed to get it back so we could have EU citizenship.

 

I could also condemn your great-great grandparents or whatever for invading Native American soil and having slaves. But I won't, because that would be ******* stupid.

[A.R.L]

Isn't Zelensky a pro-Israel and has always shown support for Israel and Iasraeli people even before the Russian invasion of Ukraine ? This explains everything i think. But, I don't mind which side both presidents take because at the end of the day, politicians will always look after their interests, sad but true.

[Nano]

1 hour ago, ZIVERT said:

I think people don’t realize that reality. Israel is the only “Jewish” state not because they think they’re better than everyone and want an “ethnically pure” ethnostate, but because it wasn’t really safe to be Jewish anywhere else prior to Israel’s. 2000 years of being a disastrous community around different parts of Europe and North Africa, pogroms, and then the Holocaust killing 2/3 of the European Jews… Then there were Jews that were kicked out of Middle Eastern countries despite living there for centuries. Returning to their ancestral homeland and establishing a state for themselves was an act of preservation. The State of Israel doesn’t exist because of the genocide and discrimination of Jews, but in spite of it.
 

One can say antisemitism doesn’t exist anymore and that Israel serves no purpose, but we all know that isn’t true. Kanye West was literally tweeting antisemitic conspiracy theories on Twitter, and was being welcomed back by Elon Musk… There was even an article about a hotel owner in Bethlehem shutting down Filipino tourist’s religious event just because their hotel decided to display a Star of David in the lobby - the owner said “We don’t allow Jews here.” Even worse, armed gunmen from the Fatah party - Mahmoud Abbas’ party, the president of Palestine - came to shut down that hotel even after the star was removed. They said ““We will strike with an iron fist against anyone who holds a normalization meeting, whether in Bethlehem or any other part of the homeland. The revolution will continue until the liberation of all the Palestinian lands.” All of this over just a symbol of Judaism, without any actual Jews or Israelis being involved. It’s more than just intolerance, that’s state sanctioned antisemitism. 

I know it’s easy to look at articles of Israeli soldiers killing kids and to paint them as monsters, and I’m sure my post will be replied to with some variation of pointing out dead Palestinian children and/or “Israel is a disgusting apartheid state.” It’s horrible when a child dies cruelly and unnecessarily, I am against that completely. As I am settlements and protection of settlers, I think that only serves to exasperate the problem and instigate further. But to think that a single state of Palestine will be a safe place for the Jews living there, after decades of animosity and violence on both sides, you would be kidding yourself.

People don't care. Antisemitism is becoming fashionable again, but it's okay because it's not actually antisemitism, it's just "anti-Zionism". They use that as justification while shouting at diaspora Jews for Israel's actions as if we're all some ****** hivemind.

[ClashAndBurn]

21 minutes ago, Nano said:

You don't know **** about me or my family. My grandparents on both sides escaped from the USSR to get here and lost their previous citizenship in the process. My father literally tried and failed to get it back so we could have EU citizenship.

 

I could also condemn your great-great grandparents or whatever for invading Native American soil and having slaves. But I won't, because that would be ******* stupid.

I don’t know about your family history, no, but your words about how Shireen Abu Akleh and Palestinian children deserved to die speak for themselves!

[ZIVERT]

1 hour ago, A.R.L said:

Isn't Zelensky a pro-Israel and has always shown support for Israel and Iasraeli people even before the Russian invasion of Ukraine ? This explains everything i think. But, I don't mind which side both presidents take because at the end of the day, politicians will always look after their interests, sad but true.

International relations is more complicated than “who has shown support for who.” Zelenskiy has both praised and criticized Israel. He was happy for Israeli protective gear and field hospitals for injured soldiers, as well as for accepting Ukrainian refugees, but has also criticized Israel for not providing weapons, air defense tech, and for not outright condemning Russia (which Lapin has done recently). Additionally, as mentioned earlier, Ukraine has either abstained or voted against Israel in UN resolutions, out of respect for the illegal annexation of Crimea, which also draws the ire of Israelis. So it’s more complicated than President Zelenskiy being “pro-Israel,” but I think he would probably lean closer towards an alliance with Israel over Palestine for a plethora of reasons. One being that Israel has dealt with its neighbors trying to wipe it from existence, and because Israeli leaders aren’t doing photo-ops and praising Putin’s take on international law.

Edited October 15, 2022 by ZIVERT

[A.R.L]

9 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

. So it’s more complicated than President Zelenskiy being “pro-Israel,”

10 minutes ago, ZIVERT said:

International relations is more complicated than “who has shown support for who.”

 

And this is something that I strongly agree with. Politics in general is complex which is why I do my best to be neutral or stay away from it as much as possible. 

[ZIVERT]

3 minutes ago, A.R.L said:

And this is something that I strongly agree with. Politics in general is complex which is why I do my best to be neutral or stay away from it as much as possible. 

I think it’s a good thing to engage in conversations about these conflicts, so long as it’s done with the understanding that nothing is as black and white as people make it out to be. But it’s definitely complex, so I also understand why people choose to stay out of it