discussion Buffy the Vampire Slayer + Angel (aka Buffyverse)

[The Man Who]

I watched the test pilot for Buffy last night and although I prefer Welcome to the Hellmouth overall, there were some parts I wish they kept in. 

[Godly]

8 hours ago, ctlp27 said:

It really is so sad that BtVS going to UPN cut us from more special episodes like this. What's great about FFL and Darla is that it really was innovative in the concept of crossovers. I love season 2 of Angel.

The way they show the same exact flashback in both episodes but manage to convey completely different meanings from it by switching the perspective from Spike to Angel is just brilliant. I agree they could've done more in the way of crossovers if their hands hadn't been tied by Buffy switching network, in fact I remember at one point seeing someone suggest that Cordelia could've gone back to Sunnydale for one episode in S6 and bring some much-needed levity to snap some of the Buffy characters out of their self-imposed misery and depressive state of mind that season, plus it never felt right that she and Xander never got to meet again. She would've been perfectly used in that way IMO, it's basically what they tried to do with Riley's return but with a better character.

[livelikemusic]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:06 AM, The Man Who said:

She looked exactly the same in Buffy as she did in Angel, so I’m not sure what versions of the episodes you’re watching. It’s one thing to say you don’t like how a character is styled, but to say “But then in S7 Buffy she looked like she ate 100 donuts a day” is disgusting as you’re quite clearly trying to body shame her and insinuate she looked fat in S7 when she looked as stunning as ever. 

 

 

 

I don’t understand what’s so controversial about her wearing a lot of tank tops and jeans throughout the series when that’s pretty much her go-to outfit. Her ‘styling’ was consistent throughout both Buffy and Angel. 

I completely agree with everything you've just said. Faith's fashion remained consistent throughout both series over the character's duration. If anything, more colour was added by the end of Buffy than she wore originally.

 

On 11/11/2023 at 5:45 AM, The Man Who said:

 

I’ve listened to this an unnatural amount of times! It’s so ******* good. 

Yes it is but, also so sad, too.

 

12 hours ago, ctlp27 said:

It really is so sad that BtVS going to UPN cut us from more special episodes like this. What's great about FFL and Darla is that it really was innovative in the concept of crossovers. I love season 2 of Angel.

It is unfortunately but, knowing the trajectory of both series, I don't see how a crossover would've worked. I'm sad we did not see the Angel / Buffy reunion, but given how out of the world Buffy was at that point, I feel like it would have been awkward... but I'm also sure she would've told him to ultimate truth like she did Spike.

 

3 hours ago, The Man Who said:

I watched the test pilot for Buffy last night and although I prefer Welcome to the Hellmouth overall, there were some parts I wish they kept in. 

There are some bits of the unaired pilot I do love and wish had been incorporated. But, overall, "Welcome to the Hellmouth" worked so well.

 

3 hours ago, Godly said:

The way they show the same exact flashback in both episodes but manage to convey completely different meanings from it by switching the perspective from Spike to Angel is just brilliant. I agree they could've done more in the way of crossovers if their hands hadn't been tied by Buffy switching network, in fact I remember at one point seeing someone suggest that Cordelia could've gone back to Sunnydale for one episode in S6 and bring some much-needed levity to snap some of the Buffy characters out of their self-imposed misery and depressive state of mind that season, plus it never felt right that she and Xander never got to meet again. She would've been perfectly used in that way IMO, it's basically what they tried to do with Riley's return but with a better character.

I know the plan was for Angel / Cordelia to re-join Buffy if Angel did not work out... but I never saw where they would have fit in a full-time capacity within the series. Angel's first visit to Sunnydale felt... off, and then his later visit felt more comfortable, but still not comfortable. And then when Willow re-connected with Cordelia during the fourth season of Angel if felt off (beyond the obvious reasons), and I just don't see how Cordelia would've fit back into Sunnydale as a higher-being. I really don't.

[The Man Who]

4 hours ago, Godly said:

The way they show the same exact flashback in both episodes but manage to convey completely different meanings from it by switching the perspective from Spike to Angel is just brilliant. I agree they could've done more in the way of crossovers if their hands hadn't been tied by Buffy switching network, in fact I remember at one point seeing someone suggest that Cordelia could've gone back to Sunnydale for one episode in S6 and bring some much-needed levity to snap some of the Buffy characters out of their self-imposed misery and depressive state of mind that season, plus it never felt right that she and Xander never got to meet again. She would've been perfectly used in that way IMO, it's basically what they tried to do with Riley's return but with a better character.

I don’t personally see a way that Cordelia could have fit into an episode of Buffy without it feeling forced and like fan-service. Also, what characters are you referring to when you say “self-imposed misery and depressive state of mind” - as Buffy and Willow have arguably the darkest arks throughout S6 and neither of their storylines feel ‘self-imposed’ to me. Trust me when I say that depression and addiction aren’t things people choose to have. Although S6 deals with some heavy and realistic topics, there are still plenty of humorous moments and Cordelia just wasn’t needed. 
 

I wasn’t a big fan of Riley as a character but I think him returning for a cameo in S6 made more sense than having Cordelia return. He acted as a stark reminder of what Buffy was missing in her life at that moment in time and as a catalyst for change. His speech to Buffy about how great she is was very touching and it had to come from him and not a character we hadn’t seen since S3. 

[ctlp27]

In terms of crossover, what I felt was mostly missing as a fan was the sense that all these characters existed in the same universe. When Buffy moved to UPN, we saw a significant decrease in phone calls between characters (even when the original cast wasn't involved), and there were fewer references in "Angel" to their shared past. Of course, some of this was due to changes in character dynamics, such as Cordy not being Cordy in season 4 and being absent in season 5, leaving little room for continuity. Wesley, for example, had only been in barely 9 episodes by that point. It's understandable that Angel, with his centuries of existence, might not frequently mention or refer to Sunnydale, where he spent only 2 and a half years.

 

However, I wasn't necessarily expecting major characters to cross over regularly. What I appreciated were occasional flashbacks or appearances by characters like Willow, Faith, Drusilla, Oz or even Lilly/Ann who never comes back in Angel. It added depth to the shared universe in a place where the two cities weren't that far.

 

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it struck me as odd that during seasons 7 and 4, "The First" was the main antagonist, and this wasn't adequately addressed in "Angel." Even when they is an attempt to kill Faith in jail, there was no real explanation or acknowledgment of why she was the target of it, despite the fact that it was part of a larger threat. Additionally, the fact that Los Angeles had no sun for several days in "Angel" season 4 seemed like a major event, but it was never mentioned in Buffy." It felt as though the Slayer was too preoccupied with Sunnydale to even be acknowledged in Angel's world.

 

Sure Angel season 5 corrected it with Spike's arrival, but you can def tell that both writer's rooms weren't really sharing anything in terms of works or scope to make this work better.

[Godly]

1 hour ago, The Man Who said:

I don’t personally see a way that Cordelia could have fit into an episode of Buffy without it feeling forced and like fan-service. Also, what characters are you referring to when you say “self-imposed misery and depressive state of mind” - as Buffy and Willow have arguably the darkest arks throughout S6 and neither of their storylines feel ‘self-imposed’ to me. Trust me when I say that depression and addiction aren’t things people choose to have. Although S6 deals with some heavy and realistic topics, there are still plenty of humorous moments and Cordelia just wasn’t needed. 
 

I wasn’t a big fan of Riley as a character but I think him returning for a cameo in S6 made more sense than having Cordelia return. He acted as a stark reminder of what Buffy was missing in her life at that moment in time and as a catalyst for change. His speech to Buffy about how great she is was very touching and it had to come from him and not a character we hadn’t seen since S3. 

Yeah I was referring to Buffy and Willow but you're right that "self-imposed" is not the right term since it implies that they'd have the ability to just "stop" suffering which is obviously not the case. What I was trying to say is that the internal battles they're both facing in that season led them both to find relief in escapist activities (Spike and magic) that only further deepened the spiral of pain and self-hatred they were in and that's fundamentally their own doing. So yeah, it goes without saying that they're not at fault for being depressed, but as the appearance of Riley proves, at times the right person at the right time can imbue you with new-found clarity about how you weren't making things any easier for you.

 

I feel like Cordelia would fit that role even better than Riley did because even back on BtVS she was the poster child of straightforwardness (remember how in Earshot she's the only one to say exactly what she's thinking?) and she'd totally call the Scoobies out for not being nearly as close a group as she left them and being dishonest with themselves and each other. Obviously she wouldn't have given a speech like the one Riley gives, I imagine instead she would've been extremely harsh as fitting for her character and would point out how she can't believe current nothing-figured-out Buffy is the same high-school heroine everyone admired and she was secretely jealous of years ago. Considering Cordelia's development as a character, she might even say all of that in an effort to get under Buffy's skin (because how dare Cordelia of all people judge her?) and let her vent because she gets it's what she needs, and the encounter would conceivably remind Buffy of how she used to be seen ("as she were") in her best days in the same way meeting Riley again does, so the end result would be the same even with a very different approach and it would still work for me. I mean, I didn't even hate Riley's return per se even if I'm not a fan of that episode, but this was a fun alternative scenario to concoct.

 

As for the implausibility of Cordelia having to go back to Sunnydale, I actually think it would be a more natural development than both the times Angel went there in S4? All it would take is for her to have a vision of something evil going on there and Angel sending her alone knowing Buffy can take care of whatever it is. Of course I still haven't watched S3 and know that her character goes through some major changes later on so maybe I'll get a sense of why it wouldn't be possible when I get there.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Godly

[CherieMoon]

Anyone listening to the new audiobook Slayers? So far so good, I'm on episode 6 going to 7 and it's pretty good. Cordelia as a slayer makes sense to me, she has always been a strong character imo even if they tried to make her sound as a bimbo the first 2 seasons of BTVS. She sounds tougher and kinda savage compared to Buffy, a lot darker too.

And Dru getting her big bad ark finally, she deserved it so much for BTVS like I don't know why they didn't do that on the series. Tara got her villain ark aswell, which I think was the original plot for season 6 but Amber Benson refused, and Tara got killed instead. 

[ithinkheknowsoutsold]

Finally finished Season 4 last night!

 

I can't believe it took me two months to get through it. I have a feeling Season 4 might not be a lot of fans' favourite, and I can understand why, but I liked it regardless. Yes, it feels a lot less consequential than the first 3 seasons, the big bad isn't nearly as compelling, there's a lot of filler, and the dynamic changes such as Giles' reduced importance or the absence of Cordelia weren't for the best, but they did a lot of things well too, such as handling Willow's relationships and making Spike and Anya more fully rounded characters and the shift from high school to college made it feel fresh instead of stuck. I also think the invoking of the first slayer was an incredibly cool idea and I was really impressed by how by the end of the season the focus had shifted to setting up a lot of foreshadowing towards Season 5 and the Slayer lore instead of the boring military stuff. I can imagine a lot of this season's fluffiness was a probably a case of network intervention, as was the case with Charmed Season 5 and onwards, so knowing that they shifted to UPN after this was a great decision creatively imo.

[ithinkheknowsoutsold]

God I really hate myself for spoiling so much of Season 5 before I even started Season 3, there's just so much foreshadowing and twisting and turning and it's such a step-up from Season 4.

[livelikemusic]

2 hours ago, ithinkheknowsoutsold said:

God I really hate myself for spoiling so much of Season 5 before I even started Season 3, there's just so much foreshadowing and twisting and turning and it's such a step-up from Season 4.

YEESSSS

[fridayteenage]

it's a bit surprising that david is the one who's been steadily employed on tv every year since 1997. i wonder if after seal team ends, he'll jump into another lead tv role, or rest a bit.

[ithinkheknowsoutsold]

The Body is such a powerful, sombre episode. It's so unlike the rest of the series, and as the episode I was most looking forward to watching, it didn't disappoint. Fantastic performances from the whole cast 

[livelikemusic]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:52 PM, fridayteenage said:

it's a bit surprising that david is the one who's been steadily employed on tv every year since 1997. i wonder if after seal team ends, he'll jump into another lead tv role, or rest a bit.

I am genuinely surprised by it, as well, but kudos to him.

 

10 hours ago, ithinkheknowsoutsold said:

The Body is such a powerful, sombre episode. It's so unlike the rest of the series, and as the episode I was most looking forward to watching, it didn't disappoint. Fantastic performances from the whole cast 

It really is one of the best episodes in primetime television ever done.

[Venom]

Just finished rewatching “You’re Welcome”

 

[livelikemusic]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:50 PM, Venom said:

Just finished rewatching “You’re Welcome”

 

Spoiler

Episode 100: death is our gift.

 

And hard to believe, after S01E01 of Buffy, did you ever foresee crying your eyes out over the death of Cordelia "I need to call everyone I've ever met!" Chase?!

[livelikemusic]

So, with the Disney+ / Hulu dual plan, Buffy the Vampire Slayer is available via Disney+ and is available in 4:3 format for the first three seasons and 16:9 for the final four, much like it is on Hulu.

 

(makes me wonder if I should just cancel my Hulu account and take it via Disney+... but I'll wait to see if the dual platform sharing works out)

[Venom]

2 hours ago, livelikemusic said:

So, with the Disney+ / Hulu dual plan, Buffy the Vampire Slayer is available via Disney+ and is available in 4:3 format for the first three seasons and 16:9 for the final four, much like it is on Hulu.

 

(makes me wonder if I should just cancel my Hulu account and take it via Disney+... but I'll wait to see if the dual platform sharing works out)

I have both, and the connection is strange. When I watch Family Guy on Hulu, it resumes where I left off. However, if I watch it on Disney+, I have to search for the episode, and once I watch it, Hulu doesn’t recognize it.

 

I only tried this to see if the ads were shorter on Disney+, but they are not. 😒
 

But the plan you’re talking about seems to involve only Disney+ as a standalone app, making it easier to access all content. It sounds like they’re phasing out Hulu as an app, so this is probably its last year anyway.

[livelikemusic]

9 minutes ago, Venom said:

I have both, and the connection is strange. When I watch Family Guy on Hulu, it resumes where I left off. However, if I watch it on Disney+, I have to search for the episode, and once I watch it, Hulu doesn’t recognize it.

 

I only tried this to see if the ads were shorter on Disney+, but they are not. 😒
 

But the plan you’re talking about seems to involve only Disney+ as a standalone app, making it easier to access all content. It sounds like they’re phasing out Hulu as an app, so this is probably its last year anyway.

Because, I don't think the accounts are connected. Your Hulu account is your Hulu account and your Disney+ account is your Disney+ account. But both share their libraries, if I read correctly.

[Buffy]

So what’s going on with the reboot? Is it not happening anymore?

[ctlp27]

1 hour ago, Buffy said:

So what’s going on with the reboot? Is it not happening anymore?

I guess it,s still in dev. Visibly with the recent podcast, JW doesn't seem to block the universe to go on without him.

 

We talked about it before but it's crazy Disney/Fox is sleeping on the buffyverse...

[Buffy]

1 minute ago, ctlp27 said:

I guess it,s still in dev. Visibly with the recent podcast, JW doesn't seem to block the universe to go on without him.

 

We talked about it before but it's crazy Disney/Fox is sleeping on the buffyverse...

For real. Disney is dumb. They could do so much with it.

[doonerr]

On 12/9/2023 at 5:52 AM, fridayteenage said:

it's a bit surprising that david is the one who's been steadily employed on tv every year since 1997. i wonder if after seal team ends, he'll jump into another lead tv role, or rest a bit.

It's a shame the way CBS treated Alyson Hannigan after 9 years of holding down the fort on Monday nights, especially during the #winning Charlie Sheen era

[chosensparkles]

6 hours ago, doonerr said:

It's a shame the way CBS treated Alyson Hannigan after 9 years of holding down the fort on Monday nights, especially during the #winning Charlie Sheen era

she appeared in one CBS comedy after that

but wasn't she attached to a pilot at some point?

[doonerr]

15 hours ago, chosensparkles said:

she appeared in one CBS comedy after that

but wasn't she attached to a pilot at some point?

Right after the end of shooting of How I Met Your Mother

They didn't even bother with a pity order to series for a 13 episode run to burn off during the Summer

[livelikemusic]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:30 AM, Buffy said:

So what’s going on with the reboot? Is it not happening anymore?

 In August 2022, executive producer Gail Berman announced the series was put "on pause" indefinitely.