Vermillion Posted January 24 Posted January 24 @ClashAndBurn @Bloo The party is not getting anywhere unless we first have the tough conversation about relying on black boomers in South Carolina. Black women are the highest demo turnout and have a compelling argument on loyalty, fine, but the difficult conversation is that we can't rely on loyalty alone anymore. The numbers just aren't there. That difficult conversation can start with the now infamous She the People black women's event in the primary where Bernie was booed.
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 24 ATRL Moderator Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:34 PM, ClashAndBurn said: Eh, I think the party faithful still trusts their establishment fully and obediently. What they've soured on is the media. Democrat primary voters are probably the most insular, anti-outsider voting block in the country. In order to get through the primary, you have to be a full believer in the goodness and infallibility of the Democratic Party and its caretakers. The one time recently that you could say there might be cracks forming was the confusion over Nancy Pelosi whipping votes for a rotting corpse of a man who is deathly ill from throat cancer in order to put AOC in her place. But that seems to have died down pretty much immediately, and they've gone back to left-punching and musing about how we need to run more John Fettermans willing to break with the party establishment and piss off the base by making overtures to the right. Expand I think the faces of the party have not changed at all. I agree. But the approval of the Democratic Party is at an all time low and I think there are many more failures to point to moving forward to show a need to move on from the status quo for Democratic primary voters. I think one core challenge is that Obama was so damn popular in 2016, that a re-up campaign with Hillary Clinton was salient enough. In 2020, Democratic primary voters weren't really even that worried about policy, they just wanted Trump gone. Biden was underwater on every policy area (except foreign policy, ironically enough) in the primary position pollings, but he always maintained a very healthy lead in perceived electability. As soon as he began to seem weak as an incumbent, Democratic primary voters wanted someone newโdespite his establishment branding as a former VP for Obama. So, I think there's a window for getting someone that isn't cut from the cloth of the establishment in 2028. But, I could be wrong. I'm choosing to be a bit more hopeful though, while not placing all my hope in that outcome. 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 24 ATRL Moderator Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:34 PM, superglowy said: No I understand, I just disagree. The leftist position is basically the Left didn't go big enough in pushing popular leftist policies (whichโฆ..correct!) but I don't agree with the narrative that this not being pushed to the average joe in itself is the cause for the Democrats 2024 walloping and I disagree with the think pieces with this as the seed of the argument (which by the way, go nuts. Express what y'all wanna express). Expand Higher wages is not a "left" position. Abolishing the private sector is a left position. Kamala's refusal to push for basic centrist ideas and differentiate herself from Biden is why she lost. Quote ATRLers are in a progressive bubble and believe voters are really progressives waiting to be activated, when in reality most voters are (in my opinion) pragmatic and what a lot of people believe is the reason for their voting patterns, and thus the basis for their opinions for what Democrats are at fault for/should do, is not correct. Which would be fine, if their position wasn't often used to call other posters genocide enabling, poor hating, Democrat cucks. Expand No, this is Cenk Uygur's position. Again, I don't think you really understand the perspectives of the Leftists in this thread. Many of us live in or are from red states. We're in tune with the country. Stop baselessly assuming that we're not. "Leftist" policies (by your standard), such as raising the minimum wage and paid family leave, passed in direct ballot initiatives in red states across the country in 2024. These are policies that Kamala chose not to run on. Us saying she should have run on them is not us saying she needed to run as a Marxist Leninist. Frankly, your arguments sound like you really misunderstand what the actual Left is and what Leftists in this thread are actually saying. Quote Would Democrats pushing raising the minimum wage and Medicare for all have helped their numbers? Yeah a bit, but I don't believe it would be the rallying cry some people here believe. Americans had to embrace Obamacare kicking and screaming. There's so much intellectual dissection and discourse when it probably was all decided by Gas and Eggs. Expand Huh? The bolded part is flatly not true. Obama ran on universal healthcare. He passed something that massively fell short of what he ran onโsomething so technocratic that it was easy to obfuscate and politicize which is why the Republican rebranding of the Affordable Care Act to "Obamacare" worked. Obama ran on universal healthcare and won in a LANDSLIDE in 2008. Quote And what I find is more often than not, Voters will vote against their own benefit due to culture wars or Political discourse. Expand This is a bad and cynical interpretation of how voters vote. There are voters who voted for Obama twice, Trump, then Biden, and then Trump again. Many of these people vote in this seemingly random way because they are trapped in a cycle of continued disappointment by both parties. Neither party is materially improving their lives so they vote reactively by voting for whichever party isn't in power. How do you address this? Well, you materially improve their lives. FDR was elected by the American people four times because he fought for policies that people felt in their everyday lives and they rewarded him for it. Currently, neither party does that. This understanding is wholly incompatible with the paradigm that the "Republicans are the bad guys" and the "Democrats are the good guys". This is why Leftists call out both because it's important to know that both of the parties are falling short of the needs of the American people. Liberals say this is us saying the majority of Americans are secret communistsโwhich is a blatant strawman because no one has said that. But, given that there the plurality of voters are unaffiliated with either major party and the approval of Congress is in the teens... it's safe to assume there's a lot of animosity and distrust to the political class. You can't fix that with a political view that assumes one side is generally good and the other side is generally bad. There's bigger problems afoot. 7
RihRihGirrrl Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:39 PM, Bloo said: I think the faces of the party have not changed at all. I agree. But the approval of the Democratic Party is at an all time low and I think there are many more failures to point to moving forward to show a need to move on from the status quo for Democratic primary voters. I think one core challenge is that Obama was so damn popular in 2016, that a re-up campaign with Hillary Clinton was salient enough. In 2020, Democratic primary voters weren't really even that worried about policy, they just wanted Trump gone. Biden was underwater on every policy area (except foreign policy, ironically enough) in the primary position pollings, but he always maintained a very healthy lead in perceived electability. As soon as he began to seem weak as an incumbent, Democratic primary voters wanted someone newโdespite his establishment branding as a former VP for Obama. So, I think there's a window for getting someone that isn't cut from the cloth of the establishment in 2028. But, I could be wrong. I'm choosing to be a bit more hopeful though, while not placing all my hope in that outcome. Expand I agree that electability is a huge factor for Democratic primary voters.....Obama was an underdog in his first run until he could get over the 'electability' hurdle.
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 24 ATRL Moderator Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:36 PM, Vermillion said: @ClashAndBurn @Bloo The party is not getting anywhere unless we first have the tough conversation about relying on black boomers in South Carolina. Black women are the highest demo turnout and have a compelling argument on loyalty, fine, but the difficult conversation is that we can't rely on loyalty alone anymore. The numbers just aren't there. That difficult conversation can start with the now infamous She the People black women's event in the primary where Bernie was booed. Expand I frankly don't think this is a difficult conversation? I don't know, the identity reductionist approach of the Democratic Party to always tout, "We are the party of Black women" and end the conversation there without any further discussions is, frankly, bad. It's also partly why Black voters are turning out less for Democrats because the Democrats haven't done anything that meaningful in the interests of Black voters. Obama smearing Black men as misogynists and Kamala promising to protect crypto assets as part of her platform for Black men shows a major disconnect with the needs of Black voters. So, frankly, that thinking needs to go and that's not a difficult conversation. I think the more difficult conversation is more so on the Left. Bernie fell into the problem of almost applying a class reductionist lens to his rhetoric and not really catering to the unique needs of Black voters. He focused on a more universal message. While, that's fine, there are marginalized people that have unique concerns that a class-exclusive platform cannot adequately address. A class-exclusive platform might be sufficient for a general election, but it will struggle to make it through a primary. To me, that's the difficult tightrope to walk that I don't have a great answer for right now. I will say, I think Bernie did improve going into 2020 on this issue. But, unfortunately, that race became a "who do we trust to be most likely to beat Trump" competition rather than a policy competition. I don't have time to fully refine my thoughts now, but that's something I have been thinking about for a future primary run in 2027-2028. 3
Europe Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Do you think all these new policies will result in civil war / violent uprisings?
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 24 ATRL Moderator Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:56 PM, Europe said: Do you think all these new policies will result in civil war / violent uprisings? Expand No. They didn't four years ago. I'm sure we'll get a few more marches though. 1
RihRihGirrrl Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:32 PM, Vermillion said: Also known as building up progressive and lefty cultural media which we already unpacked the last pages as to why it's falling apart. They're either red pilling (TYT), running out of money (The Intercept), divided by scandal (Chapo Trap House), fighting with progressives (Pod Save America) or fighting with liberals (Majority Report). If you think a separate cultural space needs to be encouraged more, great. But conservative activists like Christopher Rufo and Chaya Raichik have changed tactics to transform every facet of our culture and life to being something for them to target, from the car we buy, the hair products we buy, the sports we watch, the games we watch or play, where we travel, how we travel, the music we listen to, our daily routines, where we live, the clothes we wear. When every facet of your life is now part of the culture war, which is today's politics, those without the money and the means simply give up. Rightfully, for their sanity and mental health. Nothing moves forward as a result. Expand I agree that there's a huge media, communication, and cultural hurdle but I also think that when running against a Republication (not Trump), in 2028 there will be some eroding of the gains Republicans have made in the last decade under Trump. I also think that if Trump doesn't deliver, some of that MAGA/republican base will start to turn against the new 'establishment'. When they realized mass deportation hasn't or doesn't help their pocket books, they will start railing against the billionaires that Trump is buddying up with. Some of this is wishful thinking but if their lives get worse over the next 4 years, you would think they start lashing out at the broken promises.
superglowy Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 6:49 PM, Bloo said: Higher wages is not a "left" position. Abolishing the private sector is a left position. Kamala's refusal to push for basic centrist ideas and differentiate herself from Biden is why she lost. No, this is Cenk Uygur's position. Again, I don't think you really understand the perspectives of the Leftists in this thread. Many of us live in or are from red states. We're in tune with the country. Stop baselessly assuming that we're not. "Leftist" policies (by your standard), such as raising the minimum wage and paid family leave, passed in direct ballot initiatives in red states across the country in 2024. These are policies that Kamala chose not to run on. Us saying she should have run on them is not us saying she needed to run as a Marxist Leninist. Frankly, your arguments sound like you really misunderstand what the actual Left is and what Leftists in this thread are actually saying. Huh? The bolded part is flatly not true. Obama ran on universal healthcare. He passed something that massively fell short of what he ran onโsomething so technocratic that it was easy to obfuscate and politicize which is why the Republican rebranding of the Affordable Care Act to "Obamacare" worked. Obama ran on universal healthcare and won in a LANDSLIDE in 2008. This is a bad and cynical interpretation of how voters vote. There are voters who voted for Obama twice, Trump, then Biden, and then Trump again. Many of these people vote in this seemingly random way because they are trapped in a cycle of continued disappointment by both parties. Neither party is materially improving their lives so they vote reactively by voting for whichever party isn't in power. How do you address this? Well, you materially improve their lives. FDR was elected by the American people four times because he fought for policies that people felt in their everyday lives and they rewarded him for it. Currently, neither party does that. This understanding is wholly incompatible with the paradigm that the "Republicans are the bad guys" and the "Democrats are the good guys". This is why Leftists call out both because it's important to know that both of the parties are falling short of the needs of the American people. Liberals say this is us saying the majority of Americans are secret communistsโwhich is a blatant strawman because no one has said that. But, given that there the plurality of voters are unaffiliated with either major party and the approval of Congress is in the teens... it's safe to assume there's a lot of animosity and distrust to the political class. You can't fix that with a political view that assumes one side is generally good and the other side is generally bad. There's bigger problems afoot. Expand I never said Higher Wages is a 'left position', and yeah Kamala screwed herself by not 'going big or going home', even Communion was excited about her to begin with which had me optimistic Kamala might actually be able to cook something up. The fact a lot of you live in a Red state does not negate my comment. And it appears a lot of you aren't in tune with the country based on how the votes keep going. That's my entire point. Even you stated it, they will vote for 'Leftist policies' such as raising the minimum wage and then either vote for, or through not voting help empower a party that are the antithesis and actively combative to the initiatives that is being implied these voters vote are strongly tied to. A person view on this will be a 'Is the Dress White or Gold', all about your own perspective, And the ACA was used as a weapon against Obama his entire term. It was touted as the reason Dems lost so many house seats in 2010. Shouldn't the Dems have been rewarded for giving people healthcare if that is the argument that not empowering people through socialist acts and programs is the reason for voter apathy or rejection of Democrats? Again, my entire point about people voting Obama, Trump, Biden, Trump. People do not vote FOR things as much as they vote AGAINST things and so is my belief that the points about Dems needing to inspire through policy probably won't be what influences future Dem wins but instead be a reaction to the poor after effects of Trumps term, making all these arguments about what Dems didn't do to inspire people and do in the future to inspire people moot as the voting probably won't be influenced by that, it will be influenced by the damage and pain caused by Trumps policies. FDR won in a VASTLY different environment. Pre Political Media, Pre cultish tribesman ship, Pre social media. Leftists don't call out both. Another point I'm making. A Democratic breaking someone's nail is held to the same equivalent of a Republican breaking someone's jaw precisely because Democrats are "the good guys" and Republicans are "the bad guy". And now I've written an essay
Gottasadae Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Trumponomics is working in full force Thank you, kind sir for such low prices, look it's almost like free Promises made, promises kept! ___________________________________________________ 1 3
Thuggin Posted January 24 Posted January 24 The way we have to hope that prices keep going up just so Republicans' theory of economics is thoroughly discredited to the public My mom who voted Trump is already complaining that the eggs she gets at Aldi just went up even more to $6.20 a dozen. Do I hear $7? $8? Let's keep it going 1 5
RihRihGirrrl Posted January 24 Posted January 24 (edited) A dozen cage free eggs (non-organic) at my grocery store are now almost $7.....organic is $8 smh Edited January 24 by RihRihGirrrl 1
Gottasadae Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 8:18 PM, RihRihGirrrl said: A dozen cage free eggs (non-organic) at my grocery store are now almost $7 smh Expand Most basic eggs in NY is like $8, if you want free range or organic it's $13-17
FameFatale Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 8:02 PM, Thuggin said: The way we have to hope that prices keep going up just so Republicans' theory of economics is thoroughly discredited to the public My mom who voted Trump is already complaining that the eggs she gets at Aldi just went up even more to $6.20 a dozen. Do I hear $7? $8? Let's keep it going Expand Eggs could get up to $20 by next year and they still would blame everyone BUT Trump.
Vroom Vroom Posted January 24 Posted January 24 Out of the possible 2028 candidates that we know of right now, Kamala seems to be the least evil Maybe Dems will have better luck in 2032 Watching Harris, Fetterman, Newsom, Shapiro and Pritzker debate is going to be soul crushing. Progressives will probably rally around Beshear but I don't think he will be able to go toe to toe with the previously mentioned names. Whitmer is kind of in the same boat, and it kind of looks like she is not interested in running for the presidency 1 1
Jotham Posted January 24 Posted January 24 I don't think Newsom is going to run. I personally like him as my governor but even in California he's a very polarizing figure, I can't imagine how he could run on a national scale. Most of the country would see him as too "yuppie" or elite. 1 1
RihRihGirrrl Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 9:04 PM, nooniebao said: Expand Really?? They're gonna pull kids out of school
hoax Posted January 24 Posted January 24 (edited) On 1/24/2025 at 9:04 PM, nooniebao said: Expand The article clarifies that it was Secret Service, which just raises several more questions? Were they there for a staff member or a student? Are they doing some lifting for ICE or was this unrelated to a deportation case? It just... makes zero sense Edited January 24 by wastedpotential 2
Communion Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 5:46 PM, on the line said: Everyone on the left needs to learn compromis Expand Does this start with you no longer wanting the extermination of the homeless? 1 1
Armani. Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/24/2025 at 9:31 PM, RihRihGirrrl said: Really?? They're gonna pull kids out of school Expand They apparently updated the story and said it was secret service
ClashAndBurn Posted January 24 Posted January 24 This is directed at Destiny's revenge p*** victims btw 1
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