on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 8 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: It does if the reason you lose is because you keep choosing to sweep issues under the rug Sweeping things under the rug is an American pastime, not the reason you lose an election. Lol
GhostBox Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, TeeJay said: Did you miss the part where I said I don't think we should support Israel in anyway at any point? Even before this last year with what has happened in Gaza, I never thought we should have been so supportive of Israel. If it were up to me, I'd halt all support to Israel completely, money, weapons, everything. I'd stop it all and would have stopped it years ago. My point was, that isn't and shouldn't be the reason for the outcome of the election here. Neither party at this point is going to cut off Israel, period. We have a two party system, we have a binary choice, Harris or Trump. Handing power back to Trump because of something happening overseas is ******* stupid imo. Trump is not going to cut Israel off, if anything he will help directly and start bombing these places right along side Israel. So the choice should come down to the issues here in the U.S. and Trump will be far, far worse for us than harris will. As far as i'm concerned, overseas issues do not matter to me atm in regards to the election and who to support. Agreed 👏🏼 1
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 5 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: I agree that this push right is frustrating, but they're not doing it for kicks and giggles, they're doing it because they're trying to win. What many internet leftists don't want to acknowledge is: 1.) This election is going to be decided entirely by a very small amount of swing state voters, many of whom are moderate or right of center. If Harris was concerned about winning via national popular vote, maybe they could push further left. Unfortunately that is not how the American president is selected. 2.) The far left is an unreliable, fickle, and very small group of voters that continuously pushes back the goalposts. Dems have moved left on so many issues over the years, but leftists continue to drag them through the mud and are as openly hostile toward Dems as Republicans. I am ideologically aligned with leftists re: Israel, but I struggle to believe that the goalposts wouldn't move even if Harris called for an arms embargo. Regardless of whether that's true, the far left has never proven itself to be a reliable part of the Democratic coalition and doesn't seem willing to do so. Hence, Dems courting moderates in hopes of winning. The fact that you even have to type this out is astonishing because it's the most common sense part of this election. 4
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, rivers said: So we're all in agreement that we're screwed no matter what? Something I'll agree with leftists on. Don’t worry, babe. 2028 will be the most important election of our lifetimes. We’ll be right here arguing the same things in 4 years. Can’t wait for Republican Nominee Marjorie Taylor Green. 2 2
rivers Posted October 11 Posted October 11 2 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: I agree that this push right is frustrating, but they're not doing it for kicks and giggles, they're doing it because they're trying to win. What many internet leftists don't want to acknowledge is: 1.) This election is going to be decided entirely by a very small amount of swing state voters, many of whom are moderate or right of center. If Harris was concerned about winning via national popular vote, maybe they could push further left. Unfortunately that is not how the American president is selected. 2.) The far left is an unreliable, fickle, and very small group of voters that continuously pushes back the goalposts. Dems have moved left on so many issues over the years, but leftists continue to drag them through the mud and are as openly hostile toward Dems as Republicans. I am ideologically aligned with leftists re: Israel, but I struggle to believe that the goalposts wouldn't move even if Harris called for an arms embargo. Regardless of whether that's true, the far left has never proven itself to be a reliable part of the Democratic coalition and doesn't seem willing to do so. Hence, Dems courting moderates in hopes of winning. I get they're trying to win but something that I heard on Pod Save America which they made a good point about is that they also still need to appeal to the democratic voter base. The more they abandon democratic ideology, the more people will not be willing to vote. There are more registered democrats than there are republicans but Dems still find themselves in tight races. 1
noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 American liberals are just as selfish as their counterparts they claim to be so different from. Really awful awful country 2 1
GhostBox Posted October 11 Posted October 11 Just now, Bloo said: Don't worry, babe. 2028 will be the most important election of our lifetimes. We'll be right here arguing the same things in 4 years. Can't wait for Republican Nominee Marjorie Taylor Green. And I'm sure all yall will still say her opponent (no matter who it is) is somehow ……. Just as bad 💀 2 1
rivers Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, Bloo said: Don't worry, babe. 2028 will be the most important election of our lifetimes. We'll be right here arguing the same things in 4 years. Can't wait for Republican Nominee Marjorie Taylor Green. This is when we need to go move to Portugal, or Spain or something like that 1
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, rivers said: I get they're trying to win but something that I heard on Pod Save America which they made a good point about is that they also still need to appeal to the democratic voter base. The more they abandon democratic ideology, the more people will not be willing to vote. There are more registered democrats than there are republicans but Dems still find themselves in tight races. I'd agree in any previous election cycle where Trump is not the candidate, but they are banking on Trump being the motivation to vote. It's worked for every Democrat that I know tbh. I don't know a single regular-voter IRL who is sitting this election out. 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11 12 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: I agree that this push right is frustrating, but they're not doing it for kicks and giggles, they're doing it because they're trying to win. What many internet leftists don't want to acknowledge is: 1.) This election is going to be decided entirely by a very small amount of swing state voters, many of whom are moderate or right of center. If Harris was concerned about winning via national popular vote, maybe they could push further left. Unfortunately that is not how the American president is selected. If this is true, then do you agree that Jaime Harrison’s ad arguing that leftist Jill Stein voters actually cost Hillary the election in 2016 is bulls***? The numbers are there. More Jill Stein voters voted for Jill Stein in key states than the gap that gave Trump those same states. Had Hillary appealed to those voters, maybe she would have won. 4 minutes ago, rivers said: This is when we need to go move to Portugal, or Spain or something like that We should talk soon. I’m… thinking of a big trip ahead of starting my faculty position (wherever I end up) next year. The timing will be perfect—right before I’m sent to JD Vance’s conversion camps. 1
State of Grace. Posted October 11 Posted October 11 13 minutes ago, TeeJay said: i stay quiet on here most of the time cuz I have no desire to go back and forth with certain people on here, but i'm just going to say something and give my two cents a bit... what is happening in Gaza is horrible, Israel is dreadful and I do not think the u.s. should be supporting them at all with anything at any time, i have never understood the blind support for israel for my entire life, with that said, in regards to the election, I do not give a damn about what is happening overseas and I am sick of people going on and on about it and being ready to hand power back to Trump and his minions because of it. Let me clarify again before certain users come in pointing out that I said I don't give a damn....read it again, i don't give a damn about in regards to the election, i care about it otherwise though. But my point is, I am sick of the U.S. and it's people being expected to care so much about world wide issues when we, the american people, get ignored and screwed over meanwhile. I am more interested in what happens HERE first at this point. We should not be doing anything for anyone else around the world until we take care of our own people first. Babes THIS is why you are expected to care and actually pressure your candidate to do better when it comes to foreign policy. America is always up in some country's business and your taxes are being used to murder children in Gaza and Lebanon as we speak. Imagine if they invested that in your people's healthcare and education instead. I'm not shaming anyone voting to protect their civil reproductive rights, but this "I support Palestine but..I don't give a damn when it comes to electing Momala!" attitude from "pro-Palestine" liberals is genuinely weird. Carry on. Good luck, Babe! 2
rivers Posted October 11 Posted October 11 I'll be clear. I'm not a true blue leftist and I'm voting for Kamala but it's worrisome that Democrats cave to republican rhetoric about being weak and then they find themselves going more right on policy, especially foreign policy. It's a hard pill to swallow but I'm realizing it now. It's happened three elections in a row and it looks like it won't end. Me, a simple democrat who likes to think of themselves as progressive am getting tired of it. There's a sliver of hope that maybe she'll admit she lied the whole time and become a progressive champion when in office… right? Right? 1
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 11 Posted October 11 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bloo said: If this is true, then do you agree that Jaime Harrison's ad arguing that leftist Jill Stein voters actually cost Hillary the election in 2016 is bulls***? The numbers are there. More Jill Stein voters voted for Jill Stein in key states than the gap that gave Trump those same states. Had Hillary appealed to those voters, maybe she would have won. Added more context with an edit, sis Dems, imo rightfully, recognize that moderate independents are much much more likely voters than far leftists. Edited October 11 by DevilsRollTheDice
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11 6 minutes ago, GhostBox said: And I'm sure all yall will still say her opponent (no matter who it is) is somehow ……. Just as bad 💀 I’ll never rule out the Democrats’ ability to disappoint. Building more of Trump’s border wall than Trump himself is not a compelling argument for me to feel impressed by them. Ironically, the Dems moved more to the left when they lost to Trump than when they beat Trump. So, who knows what will come in 2028. But I’m always open minded and will try to be as fair as possible. But I’ll never play partisan bulls***. I have values and Democrats bragging about moving to the right is something that will repulse me, even if they’re not registered Republicans. 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11 Just now, DevilsRollTheDice said: Added more context with an edit, sis Dems, imo rightfully, recognize that moderate independents are much much more likely voters than far leftists. Recent political science supports the opposite, actually. Learn from what’s happened in Europe. https://ips-dc.org/lessons-from-europe-the-left-cant-win-by-running-to-the-right/ Even in America, Hillary picks a terrible centrist VP and she loses. Had she picked Bernie or Warren, she likely would have ran away with the race. Kamala had high momentum when she picked Walz when his progressive credentials were in the spotlight (arguing for free school lunch, defending trans kids); she is now stalking after neutering his freedom to be himself and focusing on chasing the nonexistent Liz Cheney supporters (reminder, Liz Cheney lost by a large margin and is deeply unpopular). Your arguments are baseless assumptions. No data supports it. 1
VOSS Posted October 11 Posted October 11 I actually do think this is the most important election of our lifetimes. Of course it was horrifying when Trump won in 2016, but for him to get back in office now after his coup attempt would put the country down a very dark path. 4 1
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 4 minutes ago, Bloo said: I'll never rule out the Democrats' ability to disappoint. Building more of Trump's border wall than Trump himself is not a compelling argument for me to feel impressed by them. Ironically, the Dems moved more to the left when they lost to Trump than when they beat Trump. So, who knows what will come in 2028. But I'm always open minded and will try to be as fair as possible. But I'll never play partisan bulls***. I have values and Democrats bragging about moving to the right is something that will repulse me, even if they're not registered Republicans. Who is bragging? None of us in this thread like it as far as I've seen. 2
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, VOSS said: I actually do think this is the most important election of our lifetimes. Of course it was horrifying when Trump won in 2016, but for him to get back in office now after his coup attempt would put the country down a very dark path. I agree. It's sad to see people make light of it. 1
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, Bloo said: Recent political science supports the opposite, actually. Learn from what's happened in Europe. https://ips-dc.org/lessons-from-europe-the-left-cant-win-by-running-to-the-right/ Even in America, Hillary picks a terrible centrist VP and she loses. Had she picked Bernie or Warren, she likely would have ran away with the race. Kamala had high momentum when she picked Walz when his progressive credentials were in the spotlight (arguing for free school lunch, defending trans kids); she is now stalking after neutering his freedom to be himself and focusing on chasing the nonexistent Liz Cheney supporters (reminder, Liz Cheney lost by a large margin and is deeply unpopular). Your arguments are baseless assumptions. No data supports it. You're making up things and pulling an article about European elections. Once again, the American presidential race is decided by swing state voters. This is a remarkably small amount of people, especially when you consider that the majority of voters are already decided and won't change their minds. European elections are fundamentally different. It is this specific group of voters Dems must win. You're comparing apples and oranges to try and land a point that doesn't work in this context. I'm not pretending to be the ultimate authority on this, but I can link articles, too. You have no more scientific basis for your claim than I do.
Vermillion Posted October 11 Posted October 11 Well, it's been a good run folks Even if just for a few weeks
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 11 Posted October 11 12 minutes ago, Bloo said: Recent political science supports the opposite, actually. Learn from what's happened in Europe. https://ips-dc.org/lessons-from-europe-the-left-cant-win-by-running-to-the-right/ Even in America, Hillary picks a terrible centrist VP and she loses. Had she picked Bernie or Warren, she likely would have ran away with the race. Kamala had high momentum when she picked Walz when his progressive credentials were in the spotlight (arguing for free school lunch, defending trans kids); she is now stalking after neutering his freedom to be himself and focusing on chasing the nonexistent Liz Cheney supporters (reminder, Liz Cheney lost by a large margin and is deeply unpopular). Your arguments are baseless assumptions. No data supports it. Just for good measure, here is data from PEW about Biden's winning coalition and here is analysis about how he improved with moderates to win. Of course it's not a done deal and Trump is difficult to topple, but here's data about American presidential elections. 1
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