noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 9 hours ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: There are so many "I can't believe it didn't end here" moments with Trump, but I truly, TRULY, cannot believe it didn't end with January 6. Regardless of whether he wins, we now live in a country where: A.) a very large portion of the public openly supports that behavior B.) a media that blatantly underplays the severity of Trump to give the illusion of objectivity C.) a large portion of self-proclaimed leftists who also don't care and will gleefully watch rights stripped here as the country slides into alt-right fascism. I literally can say the same thing about how so many alleged "progressive" liberals, especially in the gay community, can excuse the Biden-Harris admin's actions and role in the Gaza Genocide. I cannot believe that "support of the lesser evil" is not ending with Harris saying she will fully support Israel no matter what in several interviews and with Walz saying that the expansion of Israel and its proxies is a necessity for the US… (hinting at an all out war with Iran). Genocide apologism and dismissal of the humanity of Palestinian and now Lebanese lives runs at the core of the excuses liberals in this thread and elsewhere are making to continue supporting this administration. And I'm expected to believe that these are the same folks who will "pressure" Harris to go left on other issues??? Frankly you really shouldn't be surprised that you live in a country where those 3 things you listed happen. 5
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 hour ago, Bloo said: I was one of the ones pushing for her to replace Biden. It's sad she's become this terrible in such a short amount of time. But what did you actually expect? We saw who she was when she ran in 2020, and nobody liked her then. It sounds to me like you set unrealistic expectations for someone who would never live up to your own fantasies. And that's on you, b(l)oo. 2 3
noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 hour ago, Raspberries said: It's really going to be a bush administration 2.0, complete with an invasion of Iran 1
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 5 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: I literally can say the same thing about how so many alleged "progressive" liberals, especially in the gay community, can excuse the Biden-Harris admin's actions and role in the Gaza Genocide. I cannot believe that "support of the lesser evil" is not ending with Harris saying she will fully support Israel no matter what in several interviews and with Walz saying that the expansion of Israel and its proxies is a necessity for the US… (hinting at an all out war with Iran). Genocide apologism and dismissal of the humanity of Palestinian and now Lebanese lives runs at the core of the excuses liberals in this thread and elsewhere are making to continue supporting this administration. And I'm expected to believe that these are the same folks who will "pressure" Harris to go left on other issues??? Frankly you really shouldn't be surprised that you live in a country where those 3 things you listed happen. Spoiler: none of the candidates who will be the next president are going to deliver what you want. NONE. We, instead, are focusing on the candidate who won't make our lives harder so we can at least stay at the base level to fight for the rights of others. Self-preservation is not selfish. It's smart. It's really not that hard to understand.. 4 5
MusicLoverDude Posted October 11 Posted October 11 14 minutes ago, Armani? said: They had Hispanic voters tied and Black voters 20% Trump in that lol The Hispanic vote might be realistic since it was 58% Desantis 2 years ago But the Black vote was 13% Desantis in a +20 Rep election. 20% Trump ain't happening Fully expecting a mess either way because their 2 Arizona polls are a hot mess as well. I find it so ironic that Latinos are somehow very excited about voting for Trump when Trump literally wants "their kind" to be deported.
GhostBox Posted October 11 Posted October 11 7 minutes ago, MusicLoverDude said: I find it so ironic that Latinos are somehow very excited about voting for Trump when Trump literally wants "their kind" to be deported. Our history is all about people voting against their best interests 💀
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11 15 minutes ago, on the line said: But what did you actually expect? We saw who she was when she ran in 2020, and nobody liked her then. It sounds to me like you set unrealistic expectations for someone who would never live up to your own fantasies. And that's on you, b(l)oo. I saw her be an opportunistic Democrat that cared about power and had no political ideology, but with a record of pivoting left if it seemed advantageous to her. It’s a shame her political instincts are even worse than in 2020 because she was to Biden’s left then and she’s to that Biden’s right now. My expectations were generic Democrat that was willing to attack Republicans, not being a Dick Cheney hugger. My bar was in hell and she still somehow couldn’t clear it. 1 2
noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 2 minutes ago, on the line said: Spoiler: none of the candidates who will be the next president are going to deliver what you want. NONE. We, instead, are focusing on the candidate who won't make our lives harder so we can at least stay at the base level to fight for the rights of others. Self-preservation is not selfish. It's smart. It's really not that hard to understand.. You HAVE to realize that voting for "self-preservation" (again a really sick, twisted excuse for supporting a candidate backing a genocide) is exactly what will come back to bite every minority and marginalized community in the butt later on. How long until gay rights becomes the issue that straight liberals choose to ignore for their own "self preservation?" Several of you are already throwing undocumented ppl, and asylum seekers out the window as well by backing Harris's disastrous rightwing shift on immigration!!!! Principles matter, morals matter, having policy redlines matters. This isn't just about delivering what I want, it's about the fact that she's actually out here along with Walz fully stumping her support for Israel… and fanning the flames for war with Iran and now quietly refusing to commit to a ceasefire in Lebanon… Chalking these serious escalations down to "you're not gonna get what you want" as if trying to end arming a genocide is some ridiculous demand is the kind of shameful excuses liberals are making for the Democrat party. Again this WILL come back to bite you 2 1
Communion Posted October 11 Posted October 11 9 minutes ago, on the line said: We, instead, are focusing on the candidate who won't make our lives harder Think the point is that it requires having certain privileges to enjoy the reality that Harris won't make your life harder. Because she's pivoting to more conservative policies, she will end up making some marginalized people's lives harder. Income isn't anything to be ashamed of! Let's stop ignoring the elephant in the room! 2 1
GhostBox Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, noodlelymph said: You HAVE to realize that voting for "self-preservation" (again a really sick, twisted excuse for supporting a candidate backing a genocide) is exactly what will come back to bite every minority and marginalized community in the butt later on. How long until gay rights becomes the issue that straight liberals choose to ignore for their own "self preservation?" Several of you are already throwing undocumented ppl, and asylum seekers out the window as well by backing Harris's disastrous rightwing shift on immigration!!!! Principles matter, morals matter, having policy redlines matters. This isn't just about delivering what I want, it's about the fact that she's actually out here along with Walz fully stumping her support for Israel… and fanning the flames for war with Iran and now quietly refusing to commit to a ceasefire in Lebanon… Chalking these serious escalations down to "you're not gonna get what you want" as if trying to end arming a genocide is some ridiculous demand is the kind of shameful excuses liberals are making for the Democrat party. Again this WILL come back to bite you Omg just go vote for Stein and shut up 😂 1 2
rivers Posted October 11 Posted October 11 13 minutes ago, on the line said: But what did you actually expect? We saw who she was when she ran in 2020, and nobody liked her then. It sounds to me like you set unrealistic expectations for someone who would never live up to your own fantasies. And that's on you, b(l)oo. Pretty sure we ALL weren't expecting Kamala to steer right during her campaign; democrats, liberals and leftists alike. She just needed to run as a generic democrat but she's failing at that. Also Bloo is the last person you should be saying that to. He's pretty left and wouldn't pick Kamala in the first place. I can't say I knew much about her prior to 2020 and even during most of her Vice Presidency so yeah this is disappointing. You can point the finger more at voter base dems like me than actual leftists tbh. 2
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 Just now, Bloo said: I saw her be an opportunistic Democrat that cared about power and had no political ideology, but with a record of pivoting left if it seemed advantageous to her. It's a shame her political instincts are even worse than in 2020 because she was to Biden's left then and she's to that Biden's right now. My expectations were generic Democrat that was willing to attack Republicans, not being a Dick Cheney hugger. My bar was in hell and she still somehow couldn't clear it. You're not wrong on describing her. It was really one of my big fears, and one of the, if not the biggest, reasons I wasn't fully on board with hey-ho-old-joe-has-got-to-go rally cries here in early summer. I knew y'all would turn on her so quickly bc she'd never be the candidate progressives wanted.
TeeJay Posted October 11 Posted October 11 14 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: I literally can say the same thing about how so many alleged "progressive" liberals, especially in the gay community, can excuse the Biden-Harris admin's actions and role in the Gaza Genocide. I cannot believe that "support of the lesser evil" is not ending with Harris saying she will fully support Israel no matter what in several interviews and with Walz saying that the expansion of Israel and its proxies is a necessity for the US… (hinting at an all out war with Iran). Genocide apologism and dismissal of the humanity of Palestinian and now Lebanese lives runs at the core of the excuses liberals in this thread and elsewhere are making to continue supporting this administration. And I'm expected to believe that these are the same folks who will "pressure" Harris to go left on other issues??? Frankly you really shouldn't be surprised that you live in a country where those 3 things you listed happen. i stay quiet on here most of the time cuz I have no desire to go back and forth with certain people on here, but i'm just going to say something and give my two cents a bit... what is happening in Gaza is horrible, Israel is dreadful and I do not think the u.s. should be supporting them at all with anything at any time, i have never understood the blind support for israel for my entire life, with that said, in regards to the election, I do not give a damn about what is happening overseas and I am sick of people going on and on about it and being ready to hand power back to Trump and his minions because of it. Let me clarify again before certain users come in pointing out that I said I don't give a damn....read it again, i don't give a damn about in regards to the election, i care about it otherwise though. But my point is, I am sick of the U.S. and it's people being expected to care so much about world wide issues when we, the american people, get ignored and screwed over meanwhile. I am more interested in what happens HERE first at this point. We should not be doing anything for anyone else around the world until we take care of our own people first. 2
noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, Bloo said: I saw her be an opportunistic Democrat that cared about power and had no political ideology, but with a record of pivoting left if it seemed advantageous to her. It's a shame her political instincts are even worse than in 2020 because she was to Biden's left then and she's to that Biden's right now. My expectations were generic Democrat that was willing to attack Republicans, not being a Dick Cheney hugger. My bar was in hell and she still somehow couldn't clear it. I originally wasn't this worried from her admin but those comments from ******* Walz of all people about Iran during the debate and the embrace of Cheney… Like I'm genuinely concerned about how hawkish a Harris admin will be without ANY pushback from her base as evidenced by the dismissive rhetoric I'm seeing both in this thread and elsewhere. 1 1
on the line Posted October 11 Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: You HAVE to realize that voting for "self-preservation" (again a really sick, twisted excuse for supporting a candidate backing a genocide) is exactly what will come back to bite every minority and marginalized community in the butt later on. How long until gay rights becomes the issue that straight liberals choose to ignore for their own "self preservation?" Several of you are already throwing undocumented ppl, and asylum seekers out the window as well by backing Harris's disastrous rightwing shift on immigration!!!! Principles matter, morals matter, having policy redlines matters. This isn't just about delivering what I want, it's about the fact that she's actually out here along with Walz fully stumping her support for Israel… and fanning the flames for war with Iran and now quietly refusing to commit to a ceasefire in Lebanon… Chalking these serious escalations down to "you're not gonna get what you want" as if trying to end arming a genocide is some ridiculous demand is the kind of shameful excuses liberals are making for the Democrat party. Again this WILL come back to bite you None of that matters if you lose. Again. See the Supreme Court. 1 1
noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 minute ago, on the line said: None of that matters if you lose. Again. See the Supreme Court. It does if the reason you lose is because you keep choosing to sweep issues under the rug 1 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: I originally wasn't this worried from her admin but those comments from ******* Walz of all people about Iran during the debate and the embrace of Cheney… Like I'm genuinely concerned about how hawkish a Harris admin will be without ANY pushback from her base as evidenced by the dismissive rhetoric I'm seeing both in this thread and elsewhere. I’m still recovering from the “I want America to have the most lethal fighting force in the world” comment at the DNC. I’m also working on the comment Walz made about how America’s security depends on the expansion of Israel. I’m genuinely floored by the direction of this campaign after the glowing acclaim her campaign launched with at the start and especially after picking Walz as VP. There was a stark shift in direction starting at the convention and since then. 1 1
Vermillion Posted October 11 Posted October 11 6 minutes ago, TeeJay said: But my point is, I am sick of the U.S. and it's people being expected to care so much about world wide issues when we, the American people, get ignored and screwed over meanwhile. I am more interested in what happens HERE first at this point. We should not be doing anything for anyone else around the world until we take care of our own people first. Great! By that non-interventionist logic let's stop giving weaponry to Israel entirely! 3
noodlelymph Posted October 11 Posted October 11 4 minutes ago, TeeJay said: i stay quiet on here most of the time cuz I have no desire to go back and forth with certain people on here, but i'm just going to say something and give my two cents a bit... what is happening in Gaza is horrible, Israel is dreadful and I do not think the u.s. should be supporting them at all with anything at any time, i have never understood the blind support for israel for my entire life, with that said, in regards to the election, I do not give a damn about what is happening overseas and I am sick of people going on and on about it and being ready to hand power back to Trump and his minions because of it. Let me clarify again before certain users come in pointing out that I said I don't give a damn....read it again, i don't give a damn about in regards to the election, i care about it otherwise though. But my point is, I am sick of the U.S. and it's people being expected to care so much about world wide issues when we, the american people, get ignored and screwed over meanwhile. I am more interested in what happens HERE first at this point. We should not be doing anything for anyone else around the world until we take care of our own people first. You the American people are getting screwed over because even when your lesser evil candidate/party is bombing brown kids abroad at an unprecedented scale, you still line up to support them at the expense of your own well-being. You, if you aren't totally heartless which I know you're not, SHOULD be expected to care about what your tax dollars and government are doing abroad, the sheer number of lives your gov has ruined. You can't take care of your own people by giving a pass to this administration and supporting this woman, I don't see it. She is out here pledging to go further right and maybe she eeks out a win this time but what will you do in four years? Hell what will you do when the rightwing agenda continues with Dems' complicity during her next four years??? 1
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 11 Posted October 11 (edited) I agree that this push right is frustrating, but they're not doing it for kicks and giggles, they're doing it because they're trying to win. What many internet leftists don't want to acknowledge is: 1.) This election is going to be decided entirely by a very small amount of swing state voters, many of whom are moderate or right of center. If Harris was concerned about winning via national popular vote, maybe they could push further left. Unfortunately that is not how the American president is selected. 2.) The far left is an unreliable, fickle, and very small group of voters that continuously pushes back the goalposts. Dems have moved left on so many issues over the years, but leftists continue to drag them through the mud and are as openly hostile toward Dems as Republicans are. I am ideologically aligned with leftists re: Israel, but I struggle to believe that the goalposts wouldn't move even if Harris called for an arms embargo. Regardless of whether that's true, the far left has never proven itself to be a reliable part of the Democratic coalition and doesn't seem willing to do so. Hence, Dems courting moderates in hopes of winning. While it's true the third party/leftist vote does absolutely have the potential to cost her the election, I don't think she can win it regardless. Edited October 11 by DevilsRollTheDice 6 1
rivers Posted October 11 Posted October 11 So we're all in agreement that we're screwed no matter what? Something I'll agree with leftists on. 3
GhostBox Posted October 11 Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: You the American people are getting screwed over because even when your lesser evil candidate/party is bombing brown kids abroad at an unprecedented scale, you still line up to support them at the expense of your own well-being. You, if you aren't totally heartless which I know you're not, SHOULD be expected to care about what your tax dollars and government are doing abroad, the sheer number of lives your gov has ruined. You can't take care of your own people by giving a pass to this administration and supporting this woman, I don't see it. She is out here pledging to go further right and maybe she eeks out a win this time but what will you do in four years? Hell what will you do when the rightwing agenda continues with Dems' complicity during her next four years??? If you aren't from here or voting in this country don't tell people what they should care more about when voting. 💀 1 4
TeeJay Posted October 11 Posted October 11 2 minutes ago, Vermillion said: Great! By that non-interventionist logic let's stop giving weaponry to Israel entirely! Did you miss the part where I said I don't think we should support Israel in anyway at any point? Even before this last year with what has happened in Gaza, I never thought we should have been so supportive of Israel. If it were up to me, I'd halt all support to Israel completely, money, weapons, everything. I'd stop it all and would have stopped it years ago. My point was, that isn't and shouldn't be the reason for the outcome of the election here. Neither party at this point is going to cut off Israel, period. We have a two party system, we have a binary choice, Harris or Trump. Handing power back to Trump because of something happening overseas is ******* stupid imo. Trump is not going to cut Israel off, if anything he will help directly and start bombing these places right along side Israel. So the choice should come down to the issues here in the U.S. and Trump will be far, far worse for us than harris will. As far as i'm concerned, overseas issues do not matter to me atm in regards to the election and who to support. 4 1
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