DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 8 Posted October 8 14 minutes ago, Bloo said: Let's imagine a hypothetical. Let's say Candidate A says they want to nuke a city 3 times and Candidate B wants to nuke the same city 4 times. Is Candidate A meaningfully different from Candidate B when only one nuke is needed to destroy the city in question? This still ignores the fact that candidate A wants to nuke many other cities and hurt many other people. So yes, there is a meaningful difference. This isn't the only issue at stake. 2
Communion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 31 minutes ago, RihRihGirrrl said: They're both equally bad but Trump has already endorsed Isreal bombing Iran's nuclear sites Isn't this also the position of Harris? Walz went on Fox News and defended this view. 2
Relampago. Posted October 8 Posted October 8 Re: pushing Harris to the left post-election… I have very little hope for that from the Dem base. I mean, I heard the same with Biden and I don't know how many results we got from that. Biden and Harris are undeniably better than Trump in some ways though, so they're the clear "lesser evil" *insert NeneLeakeswhateverthatmeans.mov* So I have pinched my nose for Biden and am actively trying to get Harris elected to oust Trump once and for all. Hopefully we can move into a greater sense of normalcy after that because Trump is creating such chaos, it's hard to even build campaigns and movements when he's such a sweeping force. No one is willing to listen to anything besides Trump vs Not Trump for the most part. I can't see any meaningful progress being made in terms of organizing and mobilizing until Trump is gone, since we've already seen his cronies don't have the same pull (2022). I know this is going to sound a bit… crazy but I do feel that the Twinks4Trump and Latinos4Trump have made some points. Obviously they're idiots and aren't doing it for the purpose I'm trying to lay out, but I do think the best way to get Dems to move left in a meaningful way is to get Republicans to move left too, particularly on social issues. If the gender divide continues and POC men leave the Democratic Party in droves, I can see Republicans dropping the overt racism, homophobia, etc. In which case the Democrats will have very little differences to campaign on, and will be forced to move left on different issues in order to avoid becoming too similar to Republicans in all aspects and thus lose power. I don't really see how Democrats can do anything to push Harris to the left. The main base was pretty much ready to vote for Biden, despite not caring for him. It won't be until the next election where the Dems feel a palpable loss of power and then will have to restrategize because the centrist act is failing. For that reason, I think if Trump loses, we'll see a move away from his radical approach to social issues and Republicans will become softer on LGBTQ/race issues, at least in their campaign. That's why I find it very important for Harris to win, because if Trump does it says: "this strategy can work! Keep doing it!" and Dems will likely think "that strategy works! We need to move MORE right!" Rinse and repeat. In summary, it really would be more effective if Republicans could get smart and capitalize on their gains with POC and potentially white queer men as well, in order to stop the Dems from using those demographics as a crutch for differentiation. All of this is theoretical but I find it more likely than a 3rd Party gaining meaningful power in US any time soon, although that would be the best case scenario. 1 1 1
Communion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 (edited) 21 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: This still ignores the fact that candidate A wants to nuke many other cities and hurt many other people. So yes, there is a meaningful difference. This isn't the only issue at stake. I think it's a great campaigning move to remind white women, white queer people, the elderly, etc. that Trump wants to hurt them. The negative polling shifts amongst Muslims, Hispanic voters, young people, etc. would suggest though that it is a bad campaign move to very publicly argue that Dems think these groups deserve to die in order to save the previous group of voters. It seems like a very odd calculus for Dems to suggest both sets of groups can't be part of their agenda. What exactly do Dems think happens when the IDF blows up the only reproductive health center in Gaza when bombing hospitals? Do Palestinian women deserve to die from ectopic pregnancies? Should a Palestinian woman be forced to give birth to her rapist's baby when raped by an IDF soldier in prison? Edited October 8 by Communion 2 4
Communion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 35 minutes ago, Tovitov said: We really dont need to have this debate multiple times a week. It's almost like it keeps being a discussion because she keeps making the awful decision to spread this talking point, even when polling shows voters neither want her to be a Republican nor a continuation of Biden. 2 6 1
Vroom Vroom Posted October 8 Posted October 8 33 minutes ago, Communion said: This is, ironically enough, how democracy dies. If alone for that it results in defending bad campaigning. The irony is not lost on me. But what can we do? Every election democrats have painted the republican nominee as the devil and now the actual devil is running for president. Kamala needs to win and I could care less if she makes a never trump republican Secretary of veteran affairs I like to tell myself that if Kamala did something outrageous I would disavow her and vote third party (I already voted), but I defended Biden's 2024 campaign when he could barely speak a full sentence, so maybe I am blue MAGA and I'm too far gone 1
Vermillion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 Well, this debate is certainly more productive than another on why Hillary lost.
Communion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 2 minutes ago, Vroom Vroom said: The irony is not lost on me. But what can we do? Every election democrats have painted the republican nominee as the devil and now the actual devil is running for president. Kamala needs to win and I could care less if she makes a never trump republican Secretary of veteran affairs I like to tell myself that if Kamala did something outrageous I would disavow her and vote third party (I already voted), but I defended Biden's 2024 campaign when he could barely speak a full sentence, so maybe I am blue MAGA and I'm too far gone A devil who already lost a presidential election because Dems offered a broad sweeping progressive agenda?
State of Grace. Posted October 8 Posted October 8 55 minutes ago, Luckitty said: "but but trump would be worse for the middle east " It's fine! Let them keep bombing Palestine/Lebanon until Jan 20th, 2025. Then MAYBE we will start being slightly critical of Kamala and asking for a ceasefire and an arms embargo. Be patient. Hundreds of thousands were already murdered. A few more thousands of people dying wouldn't make a difference. 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 8 ATRL Moderator Posted October 8 31 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: This still ignores the fact that candidate A wants to nuke many other cities and hurt many other people. So yes, there is a meaningful difference. This isn't the only issue at stake. I never claimed this is the only issue. The claim many have used to retort people whose chief concern is Gaza is “Well, Trump will actually destroy it unlike Kamala,” even though the current policy Kamala has actively supported is already destroying Gaza. It’s a bad faith counter argument. Given the continued support for the Israel’s attacks on neighboring regions in the Middle East, even your distinction is pretty flimsy and subjective. 1 4 2
ClashAndBurn Posted October 8 Posted October 8 I don't know HOW this is in anyway defensible to the KHive but… somehow this **** makes her look like "the bigger person" by rewarding the side that tried to plant a bomb outside of DNC headquarters SPECIFICALLY TO BLOW YOU UP 1 3
Vermillion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 DeSantis' sociopath of a press secretary responding in the quoted tweet here, in case anyone needed a reminder 2
Communion Posted October 8 Posted October 8 The biggest indictment against Democratic electeds and the DNC as an institution is that this huge shift to the right happened... even after Biden won against him! Trump was beat with a progressive coalition! With progressive policies! Youth turnout surging in decades thanks to Bernie Sanders forcing Biden to the left! So that must mean this shift rightward is happening independent of Trump. That is it not because of Trump. Which means the likeliest explanation is that the power-brokers of the party *reluctantly* moved left in 2020, and that they didn't want to even though it helped them to win (suggesting winning isn't important to them), and thus were always going to move to the right if not faced with a combative left-wing faction and a primary. It's why I end up having very little sympathy for the normally serious users whose left-punching towards 3rd party voters is their own emotional anguish. You can't refuse to explain how your theory of progress works while then disparaging other movements as unserious. You're not frustrated at "leftists wanting Harris to lose" and having deep political philosophies. You're suffering anxieties over Harris' unmovable shift to the right and that you also got played by not supporting a primary. It's clear the only way to shift establishment Dems to the left is to constantly threaten to sabotage them from within. And only running to the left can win elections. Biden's regulatory work is the most popular part of his tenure. Someone "running as an incumbent" doesn't have a smart campaign if running to do away with that: 1 2 2
woohoo Posted October 8 Posted October 8 I think if trump loses, the post trump era will have the maga crazies lead by a new moron, moderate republicans and democrats mixed into an umbrella party (they're basically there already) and then you will have your far left voting sect. I truly believe ranked choice voting would solve a lot of our issues but we will never get that. NEVER. 1 2
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