shelven Posted August 30 Posted August 30 2 hours ago, Sannie said: 20 point lead with senior citizens and only 3 point lead in metro Detroit. It's almost as if crosstab truthing is objectively unscientific and we should focus on the topline like literally every single person who has actually studied this field repeatedly tells us to do. 2 2
GhostBox Posted August 30 Posted August 30 32 minutes ago, FameFatale said: Ugh He's so bad at everything 💀
Lil Mxnster Posted August 30 Posted August 30 16 minutes ago, Relampago. said: I am once again asking Kamala to please heavily highlight another point of her campaign besides abortion/reproductive rights At least expand the conversation to the horrible Supreme Court and their crooked decisions lately. I get it's a winning issue, and I think it can be the cornerstone of her campaign, but I don't feel she's even taking the abortion conversation as far as it can go. I partly agree, but I think any criticism in the judicial field should be measured and tactful because, generally, citizens don't like a candidate who constantly complains about how the referee do their job I mean, some potential voters might be jaded if they see both candidates criticizing the system they're part of, even though this strategy would benefit one more than the other Instead, she should focus on her economic proposals and judicial reforms once she becomes president. 4
Harrier Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Fundamentally, mainstream democrats distrust the American electorate. They cast them as simple and reactionary, and uninterested in substantive policy. They view psychology and identification as more important to voter choices than material reality. The progressive version meanwhile casts the American voter as a rational actor voting based on material conditions and/or ideology. I have completely lost faith in the progressive version. I used to think the American electorate is actually progressive, but this isn't reflected in the political system because of corruption. There is corruption, but I now also think that America is a country absolutely full of non-ideaological, vaguely populist independents who are very easily influenced by narrative shifts. These voters might sometimes poll that they would support populist policy positions that are also left-leaning, but at the same time they are extremely vulnerable to becoming reactionary (see: Obamacare). They're vulnerable to attacks that paint candidates as 'dangerously liberal' 'socialist' 'extreme', even though it isnt clear what that actually means. I think the numbers truth is made most clear by the gallup polling around self-identification with the terms liberal, moderate, and conservative. The most recent being 25% liberal, 37% moderate and 36% conservative. For example, let's take the polling on the Israel embargo. I've been pleased to see those numbers. But how much of this is due to empathy for Palestinians, as opposed to the general trend towards isolationism that also sees about 30% of Americans wanting aid to Ukraine decreased? Further, if Kamala and/or Biden committed to this policy, there would be a series of mainstream media attacks against them - would these support numbers for the embargo hold up to that, or would it end up being a political disaster? Especially if anything then happened to Israel, like another attack from Iran: the entire media would blame on Biden/Harris for their embargo. The Kamala Harris strategy is built on this distrust of the American electorate and its tendency to vote reactively. It's built to avoid any and all potential vulnerabilities by reducing substantive policy to a bare minimum and keeping it to only carefully considered, highly popular policies that are difficult to attack. It's cynical, and I can emotionally understand thr bad taste it leaves in the mouth for a left or even centre left political person. But I get it. 7
Katamari Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Hmmm seems like trumps new ivf switch turning off some pro life voters from not voting at all wonder how they will pivot from this
Sannie Posted August 30 Posted August 30 29 minutes ago, shelven said: It's almost as if crosstab truthing is objectively unscientific and we should focus on the topline like literally every single person who has actually studied this field repeatedly tells us to do. Sure... but when the crosstabs are objectively insane, you have to wonder if you can trust the entire methodology?
Luckitty Posted August 30 Posted August 30 the united states regime must be dissolved just like the soviet union the world would become much more peaceful 1
Sannie Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Just now, Luckitty said: the united states regime must be dissolved just like the soviet union the world would become much more peaceful "I want millions to die." But let me guess, you're anti-genocide? 1 5
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted August 30 ATRL Moderator Posted August 30 5 minutes ago, Sannie said: "I want millions to die." But let me guess, you're anti-genocide? How on earth is a criticism of our military regime related to wanting millions of people to die? 4 2
Prisoner Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Some of the privileged people in here mentioning they'll not vote for Kamala just because Yeah I don't think Kamala will become progressive even if she gets elected. However democracy will still be alive and there'll be room for discussing matters that would just be shut down under Trump's project 2025 rule. America is a very very big country compared to the major left leaning countries. You'll always have to fight for "the lesser of two evils" as long as Trumpism is alive 7
Prisoner Posted August 30 Posted August 30 58 minutes ago, Katamari said: Hmmm seems like trumps new ivf switch turning off some pro life voters from not voting at all wonder how they will pivot from this They'll forget about it all and go back to sucking his tangerine cock in a few days
Communion Posted August 30 Posted August 30 1 hour ago, Harriser said: The progressive version meanwhile casts the American voter as a rational actor voting based on material conditions and/or ideology. "Americans are too stupid to be believed when they say they want universal healthcare" - someone living in a country privileged with universal healthcare. 1
Communion Posted August 30 Posted August 30 41 minutes ago, Sannie said: "I want millions to die." So you agree the dissolving of the Soviet Union was bad and caused immeasurable suffering and avoidable death, yes? 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted August 30 ATRL Moderator Posted August 30 19 minutes ago, Prisoner said: Yeah I don't think Kamala will become progressive even if she gets elected. However democracy will still be alive and there'll be room for discussing matters that would just be shut down under Trump's project 2025 rule. Democracy is dead in this country. Democracy does not include billionaires buying out politicians to do their bidding even when it's not in the interest of the voters. Democracy is not telling American citizens to stop worrying about their legitimate concerns because the other side is worse. Democracy is not when a presidential candidate wins 4 million more votes than her opponent in 2016 and then loses the election because of 60,000 people across three states. Democracy is when the people are self-governed and our representatives truthfully represent our values. They have not been doing that for a long time because we live in an oligarchy. Our government already is unrepresentative of us. You can vote against Trump to prevent Project 2025. That's fair. But this myth that Democracy is alive and well needs to be dismantled. 5 1 1
Relampago. Posted August 30 Posted August 30 1 hour ago, Harriser said: Fundamentally, mainstream democrats distrust the American electorate. They cast them as simple and reactionary, and uninterested in substantive policy. They view psychology and identification as more important to voter choices than material reality. The progressive version meanwhile casts the American voter as a rational actor voting based on material conditions and/or ideology. I have completely lost faith in the progressive version. I used to think the American electorate is actually progressive, but this isn't reflected in the political system because of corruption. There is corruption, but I now also think that America is a country absolutely full of non-ideaological, vaguely populist independents who are very easily influenced by narrative shifts. These voters might sometimes poll that they would support populist policy positions that are also left-leaning, but at the same time they are extremely vulnerable to becoming reactionary (see: Obamacare). They're vulnerable to attacks that paint candidates as 'dangerously liberal' 'socialist' 'extreme', even though it isnt clear what that actually means. I think the numbers truth is made most clear by the gallup polling around self-identification with the terms liberal, moderate, and conservative. The most recent being 25% liberal, 37% moderate and 36% conservative. For example, let's take the polling on the Israel embargo. I've been pleased to see those numbers. But how much of this is due to empathy for Palestinians, as opposed to the general trend towards isolationism that also sees about 30% of Americans wanting aid to Ukraine decreased? Further, if Kamala and/or Biden committed to this policy, there would be a series of mainstream media attacks against them - would these support numbers for the embargo hold up to that, or would it end up being a political disaster? Especially if anything then happened to Israel, like another attack from Iran: the entire media would blame on Biden/Harris for their embargo. The Kamala Harris strategy is built on this distrust of the American electorate and its tendency to vote reactively. It's built to avoid any and all potential vulnerabilities by reducing substantive policy to a bare minimum and keeping it to only carefully considered, highly popular policies that are difficult to attack. It's cynical, and I can emotionally understand thr bad taste it leaves in the mouth for a left or even centre left political person. But I get it. I agree with this, but I disagree that sticking with the moderate approach is a sustainable tactic. Perhaps it will win Kamala this election, but prior to 2016, I was unsure about the future of the Republican Party but post-Trump, it made me wonder about the future of the Democratic Party. The public is increasingly cynical when it comes to politicians, especially ones that fit the mold of what we've seen before; it's exactly why Trump's numbers won't fall no matter how awful he is and the things he does are. If Democrats continue to try to take a controlled and standard approach, touting "normalcy" and "democracy" as their main points, people will grow tired as their sense of normalcy on the ground now is high prices for everyday goods, stagnant wages, high medical bills, etc. Trump is probably the biggest idiot we've ever seen in office, but people love him because despite his complete ineptitude and endless failures, he is something different and people stand by him for that fact alone. He is the one thing that opinions have hardly been swayed on. If you liked Trump in 2020, chances are you still do now. Opinions on more moderate stances change all the time, see: Obamacare going from unpopular to popular, for example. The mood of the electorate will never change if better options are not advocated for. You'd be surprised how many people's "conservatism" is actually just ignorance. How many people don't even know healthcare is usually free or very low cost in most western countries is kind of the perfect example. They reject it because they've never been told it's even possible, because our most left politicians are usually more center right when compared to more liberal countries. Going all the way back to FDR, he was likely our most "liberal" president ever and definitely one of the most popular. Why? Because he brought new ideas that people hadn't even considered possible, and it improved their lives. The New Deal if presented today would be dragged left and right, only for the egg to land on everyone's face once it becomes a popular bunch of policies. I truly don't believe this slow move to the left just to pivot right over and over method is sustainable. Should Kamala win, enact very little change while advocating for very little change, we can continue to kiss the House, Senate and Presidency goodbye. There needs to be an advocate for something different, because trying to blend in as a Republican-lite is only going to hurt in the long run, electorally and societally. 3 2
Prisoner Posted August 30 Posted August 30 4 minutes ago, Bloo said: Democracy is dead in this country. Democracy does not include billionaires buying out politicians to do their bidding even when it's not in the interest of the voters. Democracy is not telling American citizens to stop worrying about their legitimate concerns because the other side is worse. Democracy is not when a presidential candidate wins 4 million more votes than her opponent in 2016 and then loses the election because of 60,000 people across three states. Democracy is when the people are self-governed and our representatives truthfully represent our values. They have not been doing that for a long time because we live in an oligarchy. Our government already is unrepresentative of us. You can vote against Trump to prevent Project 2025. That's fair. But this myth that Democracy is alive and well needs to be dismantled. I'm from India. We are actively voting against the incumbent Right wing nationalistic authoritarian government. Last election during 2019 they won a supreme majority where the voice of the opposition did not matter. This year, we still lost to the ruling party but we managed to vote the opposition into more seats hence gaining some power where they are able to keep the ruling party in check. Previously if you criticize the government, you can be jailed or severely bullied by the ruling party. Even though we are still ruled by the same government, we now have more voice and more power to express ourselves. We are slowly coming back to democracy. The United States has one of the most healthiest democracy. Just because you aren't getting everything you requested for doesn't mean democracy is dead. The very fact that you can criticize Kamala Harris, Donald Trump and exercise your right to free speech is a beautiful demonstration of democracy. That is to say, in big countries like the US and India, we can't be single issue voters. We actively have to vote for keeping democracy alive even if our party isn't acting in our best interests. I know it far too well 12
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted August 30 ATRL Moderator Posted August 30 3 minutes ago, Prisoner said: The United States has one of the most healthiest democracy. This is patently false. We don't even crack the top 20: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index Quote Just because you aren't getting everything you requested for doesn't mean democracy is dead. The very fact that you can criticize Kamala Harris, Donald Trump and exercise your right to free speech is a beautiful demonstration of democracy. That is to say, in big countries like the US and India, we can't be single issue voters. We actively have to vote for keeping democracy alive even if our party isn't acting in our best interests. I know it far too well Again, the United States is an oligarchy where both major parties are bought off by billionaires. George Bush passed massive tax cuts on the rich when he was in office, the Democrats criticized him as they should. However, when the Obama administration came into power, Obama and Biden made those same tax cuts permanent. Democrats across the country are criminalizing poverty; Democrats have built more of Trump's border wall than Trump himself; etc. 8 2 3
Armani? Posted August 30 Posted August 30 1 hour ago, shelven said: It's almost as if crosstab truthing is objectively unscientific and we should focus on the topline like literally every single person who has actually studied this field repeatedly tells us to do. The age groups are kind of whatever, but the Black support error is definitely why Trump is up since the White Vote looks typical.
Prisoner Posted August 30 Posted August 30 16 minutes ago, Bloo said: This is patently false. We don't even crack the top 20: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index Again, the United States is an oligarchy where both major parties are bought off by billionaires. George Bush passed massive tax cuts on the rich when he was in office, the Democrats criticized him as they should. However, when the Obama administration came into power, Obama and Biden made those same tax cuts permanent. Democrats across the country are criminalizing poverty; Democrats have built more of Trump's border wall than Trump himself; etc. I know the US has flawed democracy. But among the big countries like India, China, Russia, US etc. you guys have a democracy the rest of us could only dream of. We have to consider the practical and the statistical aspects when it comes to politics cause ain't no way we could compare to New Zealand or Sweden 5
GhostBox Posted August 30 Posted August 30 I wonder if they will have big rallies through out this bus tour too? 👏🏼 3
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