Redstreak Posted July 8 Posted July 8 You think in October when Biden is down by 12 in Wisconsin they'll reflect on their choices? 1
GraceRandolph Posted July 8 Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, Redstreak said: You think in October when Biden is down by 12 in Wisconsin they'll reflect on their choices? It's over. Biden wants to "prove us wrong" again. 1
ClashAndBurn Posted July 8 Posted July 8 1 minute ago, Redstreak said: You think in October when Biden is down by 12 in Wisconsin they'll reflect on their choices? Nah. They'll blame progressives even though AOC and Bernie were his earliest endorsers and cheerleaders. It's like breathing for them: they'll blame the left and move the Overton Window to the right, abandoning even policies like abortion access and pathways to citizenship for Dreamers. Problem is they're fracturing their voter base so hard by moving right on immigration and by fully enabling Israel's genocidal ambitions that it's hard to see them recovering from a loss of this magnitude. 2
Armani? Posted July 8 Posted July 8 The best yall can hope for is anti Project 2025 ads being blasted 24/7 but it seems he's already blown millions of dollars & losing donors while simultaneously still being under water so... 1
Communion Posted July 8 Posted July 8 (edited) 21 minutes ago, shelven said: I prefer to avoid going down the "the primary was fixed / there was no actual primary" path because I don't think hyperboles are productive in these situations. There was a primary, Biden won it with legitimately cast votes, and it was technically open to whoever wanted to run against him. Actively denying that just gives fuel to Blue MAGA. The real problem with the "Biden won the primary so going against him would be overturning the will of the voters" argument is that the primary was framed in a way that means it's not an accurate reflection of the full voting base's intentions. When the overriding message in the primary from both the media and the DNC itself was that it wasn't meaningful because we were just going through the motions to nominate the incumbent, that obviously massively depresses turnout. If the primary had been framed as a truly robust primary where Biden should be subjected to legitimate challenge, the turnout of the races would have been radically different. And Biden still could have won! Knowing the Dem primary voting base, I'd even go so far as to say it's more likely than not that he would have won even if faced with meaningful challengers and a media and DNC that treated the primary meaningfully. But the point is that we just can't know for sure how that version of the primary would have gone, so definitively stating that the primary that did happen is an ironclad reflection of the will of the people is misleading. The other issue with the "will of the voters" argument is that... the voters DID vote for the possibility of Harris having to take over. Voters do that every time they vote for a ticket that includes a presidential candidate and a vice presidential candidate - inherent in the system is the recognition that the vice president is there to take over for the president if the president is no longer able or willing to serve. You can make the argument that a coup attempt by the delegates at the convention itself would be subverting votes, and even that running a second open primary would be subverting votes, but it's asinine to claim that merely asking a presidential candidate who is perceived to be unfit for office to drop out in favour of the vice president candidate that the primary voters agreed should be the back-up in that scenario is "subverting the will of the people." And then on top of all this, there's the whole can of worms of whether the primary can be said to reflect the will of the voters when said voters were basing their decisions on incomplete information that the Biden campaign/administration was intentionally hiding. A lot of the information about just how bad Biden's current condition is only starting coming out long after the primary was basically wrapped out. Withholding crucial information for a vote and then claiming that vote represents the honest and informed choice of the voters is incredibly shady. I can definitely see your concerns but also think there is a legitimate grievance that the DNC cancelled all primary debates because "they aren't needed" when it is clear that Biden didn't just start struggling with his mental sharpness the night before the first debate with Trump. There is a real chance that he and Marianne Williamson or Dean Phillips get into a back-and-forth and he displays the same behavior he did in the debate with Trump and it sends the same shockwaves as it did. It was clear there was collusion to protect him from this environment and only allow him in public to speak off-the-cuff without a teleprompter when thinking Trump would be deranged enough that no matter how poorly he did there would be a foil that made him look better. These revelations would have been happening earlier, whether in June 2023 or February 2024 - months before June 2024. Let alone... who would have thrown their hat into the race if Biden struggled against Williamson and Phillips as he demonstrated he did against Trump? It's hard not to see the comparisons with 2016 where Clinton's allies ensured no one posed a challenge and the stray socialist from Vermont exposed her weaknesses because she underestimated him and had no issue entertaining his campaign. Edited July 8 by Communion 1 2
Eat The Acid Posted July 8 Posted July 8 The only good news is France and U.K. governments will strongly oppose Trump actions in Europe.
nadiamendell Posted July 8 Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, Eat The Acid said: The only good news is France and U.K. governments will strongly oppose Trump actions in Europe. Good for Europe, I guess.
ClashAndBurn Posted July 9 Posted July 9 9 minutes ago, Eat The Acid said: The only good news is France and U.K. governments will strongly oppose Trump actions in Europe. Melenchon, sure. But Starmer??? I seriously doubt it. Labour are the new Tories now basically, and the Tories are moving further right to meet up with Nigel Farage's Reform movement. Basically exactly like how here in the US, Democrats are now the home for Bush and Reagan Republicans while the left has nowhere to go, meanwhile the current Republicans are embracing fascism. Different flavors of right-wing authoritarianism. 1 1
shelven Posted July 9 Posted July 9 40 minutes ago, Communion said: I can definitely see your concerns but also think there is a legitimate grievance that the DNC cancelled all primary debates because "they aren't needed" when it is clear that Biden didn't just start struggling with his mental sharpness the night before the first debate with Trump. There is a real chance that he and Marianne Williamson or Dean Phillips get into a back-and-forth and he displays the same behavior he did in the debate with Trump and it sends the same shockwaves as it did. It was clear there was collusion to protect him from this environment and only allow him in public to speak off-the-cuff without a teleprompter when thinking Trump would be deranged enough that no matter how poorly he did there would be a foil that made him look better. These revelations would have been happening earlier, whether in June 2023 or February 2024 - months before June 2024. Let alone... who would have thrown their hat into the race if Biden struggled against Williamson and Phillips as he demonstrated he did against Trump? It's hard not to see the comparisons with 2016 where Clinton's allies ensured no one posed a challenge and the stray socialist from Vermont exposed her weaknesses because she underestimated him and had no issue entertaining his campaign. I think we're on the same page substantively - it's really just a matter of framing preference. I think going as far as calling it fundamentally rigged or illegitimate exposes the argument to too much criticism, whereas it's a lot harder for someone in good faith to push back against the argument that it was flawed as a way of measuring the true will of the people. But really I'm just being pedantic at this point The larger point of my post (which I assume you agree with) is that regardless of how someone chooses to describe whatever happened with the primary, Biden using it as a shield to insist that he actually has this overwhelming public mandate to be the Dem nominee is manipulative and delusional. 2
GhostBox Posted July 9 Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: Didn't Yang create his own party? 💀
GraceRandolph Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 minute ago, GhostBox said: Didn't Yang create his own party? 💀 Relevance?
GhostBox Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 hour ago, GhostBox said: I've seen so many posts of my Facebook about it from people I never see post political stuff 💀 Of course one of this forums lone Trump supporters would laugh at this. 😂
19SLAYty9 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 The Parkinson's story was NASTY. The dnc wants him out. I bet they have more.
GhostBox Posted July 9 Posted July 9 Now we just wait to see if Biden face plants during his solo press conference this week or not. 🤷
byzantium Posted July 9 Posted July 9 2 hours ago, Redstreak said: You think in October when Biden is down by 12 in Wisconsin they'll reflect on their choices? All that matters is that Biden feels he gave it his best. Isn't that beautiful? 1 1 2
shelven Posted July 9 Posted July 9 16 minutes ago, GhostBox said: Now we just wait to see if Biden face plants during his solo press conference this week or not. 🤷 Yeah, 80% of these statements (particularly from the senators) read as "I'm giving him one last chance to not f*ck this up before the real knives come out." If he has another major stumble within the next week or two, I think this turns aggressive very quickly. 4
byzantium Posted July 9 Posted July 9 2 hours ago, Eat The Acid said: Oh yikes, so we're really getting Trump? Yeah. It looks like it. The good news is, Biden has given us 4 months of warning of the trump presidency and thus we can prepare. Isn't he so kind? 1 3
GhostBox Posted July 9 Posted July 9 8 minutes ago, shelven said: Yeah, 80% of these statements (particularly from the senators) read as "I'm giving him one last chance to not f*ck this up before the real knives come out." If he has another major stumble within the next week or two, I think this turns aggressive very quickly. I agree
VOSS Posted July 9 Posted July 9 Biden has been toast since the debate, it's only a matter of when and how they replace him. You can get voters to believe a lot, but you won't get people who were already on the fence about their vote to ignore what they see with their own eyes when the campaign says he's not a mentally deteriorating elderly man. 1
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