news [Day 798] Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[ClashAndBurn]

Zelenskyy feeling increasingly isolated according to TIME

[Gottasadae]

 

 

Imagine to waste that amount of money on genocide and terror, when good part of Russia keep living in total poverty. putin priorities 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Gottasadae

[ClashAndBurn]

This negotiation could have been done a year and a half ago. Less people would have died and the land boundaries would have been about the same.

 

Biden pretty much ordered Zelenskyy to fight Russia all the way down to the last Ukrainian, though. Kinda sickening, tbh.  

[VeniceBeach]

2 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

This negotiation could have been done a year and a half ago. Less people would have died and the land boundaries would have been about the same.

 

Biden pretty much ordered Zelenskyy to fight Russia all the way down to the last Ukrainian, though. Kinda sickening, tbh.  

Imagine having "Free Palestine" in your member title and still spreading anti-Ukrainian theses. I guess everyone should respect the territorial integrity of countries and the right of people to live peacefully without war-mongering neighbors only when it doesn't apply to Ukraine, right? Or by that logic, should Palestinians give Israel 1/4 of Gaza to make a peace deal with them so "less people will die"? You are a western tankie living in Georgia who knows nothing about Ukraine, its history or its difficult historic relations with Russia. The few people who escaped from Mariupol to the western regions of Ukraine want to return home, to Ukrainian Mariupol.  Go stick to your posts about Biden, because this war would've happened without Zelensky OR Biden anyway

[ClashAndBurn]

8 minutes ago, VeniceBeach said:

Imagine having "Free Palestine" in your member title and still spreading anti-Ukrainian theses. I guess everyone should respect the territorial integrity of countries and the right of people to live peacefully without war-mongering neighbors only when it doesn't apply to Ukraine, right? Or by that logic, should Palestinians give Israel 1/4 of Gaza to make a peace deal with them so "less people will die"? You are a western tankie living in Georgia who knows nothing about Ukraine, its history or its difficult historic relations with Russia. The few people who escaped from Mariupol to the western regions of Ukraine want to return home, to Ukrainian Mariupol.  Go stick to your posts about Biden, because this war would've happened without Zelensky OR Biden anyway

Nothing about my post was anti-Ukraine, but ok. If my post was anti-anything, it's anti-Joe Biden and anti-US, because the war was needlessly prolonged and the lines on the battlefield haven't changed even with Western weaponry supporting Ukraine's spring counter-offensive.

 

Funny how the Ukrainians and their supporters also tend to be pro-Israel, though.  

 

Sorry that noted tankie outlet NBC elicited such a negative reaction from you.

[VeniceBeach]

2 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Nothing about my post was anti-Ukraine, but ok.

Suggesting Ukraine give up 1/4 of its territory is indeed anti-Ukrainian. I ask you again, should the Palestinians by your logic give up 1/4 of their land so the war with Isreal doesn't continue for the next 75 years? Isn't it "prolonged" enough?

 

3 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

it's anti-Joe Biden and anti-US, because the war was needlessly prolonged and the lines on the battlefield haven't changed even with Western weaponry supporting Ukraine's spring counter-offensive.

 

Funny how the Ukrainians and their supporters also tend to be pro-Israel, though.  

 

Sorry that noted tankie outlet NBC elicited such a negative reaction from you.

Imagine telling the people of Kherson (250,000 inhabitants) that Ukraine would have concluded a "peace" treaty a year and a half ago so they would have been left to live under Russian occupation? People living there met Ukrainian soldiers with tears and joy back in November 2022, they hid Ukrainian flags in their houses and waited for the moment when they would be freed.

It's enough to be anti-Russia, tell Putin to stop this war and there will be an actual peace.

[ClashAndBurn]

Just now, VeniceBeach said:

Suggesting Ukraine give up 1/4 of its territory is indeed anti-Ukrainian. I ask you again, should the Palestinians by your logic give up 1/4 of their land so the war with Isreal doesn't continue for the next 75 years? Isn't it "prolonged" enough?

Well, sorry but that seems to be the deal that's on the table as the West forgets about Ukraine to focus on helping Israel genocide the Palestinians and push 2M people completely out of Gaza. Not 1/4 of Gaza, but all of it.

 

3 minutes ago, VeniceBeach said:

It's enough to be anti-Russia, tell Putin to stop this war and there will be an actual peace.

Putin is not accountable to me, and he's barely accountable to his own people since he's rendered it illegal to protest him there. My own government is the only one I can actually make demands of, but clearly even then, Genocide Joe doesn't consider himself accountable to voters and would rather put his full support behind an ethnic cleansing effort than trying to deter it. I would never presume to tell Zelenskyy that his fight isn't worth it, and I am truly happy for the people of Kherson, but I deplore my own country for giving Ukraine promises it wouldn't be able to have the political bandwidth to keep.

[VeniceBeach]

One more point that is a bit related to the above topic. Why did Ukraine react in such way to the situation in Gaza and now actively support Israel?
 

I want to remind you that Ukraine is one of the few European countries that recognizes the independence of Palestine. Until 2023 they continuously voted in the UN against Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands. In December 2016, Ukraine as a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council voted in favor of resolution 2334, which criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West Bank. Ukraine's ambassador to the UN, Volodymyr Yelchenko, likened Israel's settlement of the West Bank to the Russian occupation of Crimea. And even after the start of the war, in November 2022, Ukraine supported a UN resolution that asked the International Court of Justice to investigate Israel's "prolonged occupation, settlement and annexation of Palestinian territory".

Now the situation is becoming more complicated. Since the beginning of the war, only Western countries started to actively assist Ukraine, so all support and Ukraine's ability to defend itself depends on them. Ukraine cannot "piss off" its Western partners, otherwise it will immediately lose all the support. Another detail is the weapons. Ukraine asked Israel for its air defense systems to defend itself against Russian missiles, but they refused so to not damage its cooperation with Russia in Syria. Now, by actively changing their stance on Israel they hope to still get air defenses, because now Israel and Russia's relations have worsened. And there is ONE more detail, since the beginning of Summer 2022 Iran started supplying Russia with its drones, which are attacking Ukraine every day. Many of them severely damaged the country's energy infrastructure this winter and left millions of Ukrainians without heat and water for days. Iran is an enemy of Israel and Ukraine benefits from the deterioration of their relations so that Iran can no longer help Russia with weapons and focus only on Isreal.

It's all geopolitical games, if the West's opinion on Israel changes, Ukraine will change it too. As long as there is a war going on, Ukraine cannot afford to have a policy different from the West. Blame the West, not Ukraine that is stuck in a battle of superpowers.

[bestfiction]

10 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

This negotiation could have been done a year and a half ago. Less people would have died and the land boundaries would have been about the same.

 

first of all, that's not even true because 1.5 years ago the city of Kherson and Kharkiv regions were still occupied by Russia

secondly, I thought that the right to resist the occupant and invader is sacred? what happenned to that?

[VOSS]

 

[TasteOfYourLips]

8 minutes ago, VOSS said:

 

This is such a **** situation. russia's biggest strength has been always its large manpower that russia's authorities don't care to lose (and in case of its asian populations is almost happy to lose).

 

Sad thing is that even if the peace treaty will be reached, russia will be back to Ukraine in a few years

Edited November 5, 2023 by TasteOfYourLips

[Letemtalk]

What happened with this thread? Did Americans get bored with this conflict and decide to spend money helping Israel bomb civilians in Gaza instead?

 

White House says it is nearly out of money to help Ukraine fight war with Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-says-it-is-nearly-out-money-help-ukraine-fight-war-with-russia-2023-12-04/

 

Quote

WASHINGTON, Dec 4 (Reuters) - White House budget director Shalanda Young warned in a letter to Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson and other congressional leaders on Monday that the United States was running out of time and money to help Ukraine fight its war with Russia.

 

[VeniceBeach]

10 minutes ago, Letemtalk said:

What happened with this thread? Did Americans get bored with this conflict and decide to spend money helping Israel bomb civilians in Gaza instead?

 

White House says it is nearly out of money to help Ukraine fight war with Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-says-it-is-nearly-out-money-help-ukraine-fight-war-with-russia-2023-12-04/

 

 

Republicans don't want to give money to Ukraine because they like how far-right Russia is becoming, especially over the last year. Support for Ukraine is fading and we can notice it by the situation on the front too, there are almost no advances of Ukrainian troops over the last months 

[John Slayne]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:38 AM, VeniceBeach said:

Suggesting Ukraine give up 1/4 of its territory is indeed anti-Ukrainian. I ask you again, should the Palestinians by your logic give up 1/4 of their land so the war with Isreal doesn't continue for the next 75 years? Isn't it "prolonged" enough?

Serious question, do you think that Ukraine can still realistically push Russians back and reclaim their land? As numerous articles cite above, it seems like both the UA army and their Western allies don't have much else to give, unless NATO deploys their own units on the ground. Obviously in an ideal world the war would not happen and UA could keep their territories, as is their right, but they've been occupied for year and a half now and barely anything has changed. People just keep dying with no end in sight. At this point it's becoming very clear that peace talks should've started long time ago. There's no way UA can win unless their Western allies literally send their own troops. 

 

The situation in Palestine is different since Israel is directly enabled and supported by the US (and Europe), so it makes more sense to pressure Western governments to change their foreign policy in favour of Palestine, which could bring about meaningful change. With UA I don't really see what else they and their Western allies can do to win, Putin is not going to withdraw and it looks like the West has no means to force him to do so... 

 

For the record, I fully support UA, I'm just genuinely curious about your thoughts on this. 

[Gottasadae]

49 minutes ago, John Slayne said:

Serious question, do you think that Ukraine can still realistically push Russians back and reclaim their land? As numerous articles cite above, it seems like both the UA army and their Western allies don't have much else to give, unless NATO deploys their own units on the ground. Obviously in an ideal world the war would not happen and UA could keep their territories, as is their right, but they've been occupied for year and a half now and barely anything has changed. People just keep dying with no end in sight. At this point it's becoming very clear that peace talks should've started long time ago. There's no way UA can win unless their Western allies literally send their own troops. 

 

The situation in Palestine is different since Israel is directly enabled and supported by the US (and Europe), so it makes more sense to pressure Western governments to change their foreign policy in favour of Palestine, which could bring about meaningful change. With UA I don't really see what else they and their Western allies can do to win, Putin is not going to withdraw and it looks like the West has no means to force him to do so... 

 

For the record, I fully support UA, I'm just genuinely curious about your thoughts on this. 

Peace talks are useless cuz putin is keep lying over and over again, I think he will prolong this war until US presidential election. It's not a secret that he badly need Trump in office to save yourself and make Ukraine as neutral territory under russian puppet control. It’s true that Ukraine can't win this war without adequate weapons supply plus most important aviation. The eastern front has like 3 lines of defenses with trap trenches and a lot of mines, UA soldiers only partially breached first line of russian defense and summer counteroffensive showed very well that tanks are pretty useless without fighter jets to support land offensive operations, so it’s not about troops but mostly weapons and knowledge how to use it efficiently. Anyway, russia is keep loosing man power and equipment too and a lot more than UA, plus they’re stuck on eastern frontlines with no clear plans what to do next. 

[Gottasadae]

13 hours ago, Letemtalk said:

What happened with this thread? Did Americans get bored with this conflict and decide to spend money helping Israel bomb civilians in Gaza instead?

 

White House says it is nearly out of money to help Ukraine fight war with Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-says-it-is-nearly-out-money-help-ukraine-fight-war-with-russia-2023-12-04/

 

 

Atrl has many Russia apologists that don’t even consider what putin is doing in Ukraine as genocide and ethnic cleansing, meanwhile they’re ripping their arses for Palestine - double standards and hypocrisy at it best  

Edited December 5, 2023 by Gottasadae

[Aethereal]

Russia lost the war already. The post 2022 territory under Russian occupation is only roughly 1.7x of Crimea and Donbass. But when the Russian takeover of Crimea and Donbass happened, Russia was not hit as hard by sanctions, they did not lose 200,000 soldiers and they did  not gain a completely empty and damaged infrastructure with potentially no tourism for years which is only a burden for Russia at this point.

 

But Ukraine lost a lot too and it does not seem to moving along.  A big problem is if Russia has the usual bad habit forgetting borders and deals and years later they jump into invading all of Ukraine again. 

 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Gottasadae said:

Atrl has many Russia apologists that don’t even consider what putin is doing in Ukraine as genocide and ethnic cleansing, meanwhile they’re ripping their arses for Palestine - double standards and hypocrisy at it best  

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

[Gottasadae]

11 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate.

First of all, I don’t support neither Israel or Palestine, since one is pushing their agenda and other is controlled by terrorist organization, both of them are keep lying in a blink of an eye. Second, I couldn’t care less about Biden as independent but if GOP only can propose Trump as their messiah, then thank you, next…I better vote for another 4 years of moderate dementia than totally unfit dumb psycho that have no idea about foreign policies or domestic issues.

 

20 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

Tell me you’re a russian supporter, without telling me  It’s a same bullshit that russian propagandists keep using to brainwash masses on state tv  Isn’t Ukraine already has US bases all over the border, chemical weapons with fighting mosquitos and ducks, plus secret nuclear arsenal according to Solovyov and Skabeyeva 

[Aethereal]

44 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

You were critical over Zelensky refusing to accept the deal with Putin in order to save Ukrainian lives from dying but don't seem to be upset with Palestinian rulers not accepting the two-state solution in order to save even more Palestinian lives for a much smaller amount of territory? 

 

 

 

[VeniceBeach]

4 hours ago, John Slayne said:

Serious question, do you think that Ukraine can still realistically push Russians back and reclaim their land? As numerous articles cite above, it seems like both the UA army and their Western allies don't have much else to give, unless NATO deploys their own units on the ground. Obviously in an ideal world the war would not happen and UA could keep their territories, as is their right, but they've been occupied for year and a half now and barely anything has changed. People just keep dying with no end in sight.

Ukraine doesn't even need NATO troops on its territory, what it needs are modern combat aircraft to control frontline borders, millions of artillery shells and more advanced electronic devices against drones. The Russian-Ukrainian war at the moment is a battle of artillery, while NATO long ago switched to developing modern warplanes to prevent any movement of ground vehicles. Can Ukraine regain its territories? In its current state, no. It can in the future if it has enough of the abovementioned things. But what many people overlook is that if Ukraine stops resisting, Russia will not stop and will seize more territories without any peace treaties.

 

4 hours ago, John Slayne said:

At this point it's becoming very clear that peace talks should've started long time ago. There's no way UA can win unless their Western allies literally send their own troops.

A peace treaty with Russia is not a peace treaty, but a frozen conflict for a couple of years only to be resumed with even more violence and cruelty. The situation in Gaza shows this perfectly, neither country will be happy with a peace treaty and they will start thinking about how to accomplish all their goals militarily. A peace treaty on the current frontline borders is also impossible because Russia does not even control the two regional capitals of the regions they occupy (Zaporizhzhia and Kherson). Here's what the map of Russia looks like in the new Russian maps with "new regions":

And that is the situation today. Not all of their desired territories are under their occupation.

Every country in the world recognizes Ukraine's borders, even Russia itself recognized Crimea as Ukrainian and all their other territories. Why should Ukraine give them away? There are millions of Ukrainians living in the occupied territories and they support Ukraine, every captured city went out to rallies in the first months of the capture, but then they stopped doing so because they feared Russian troops. They want to live in their own country and we should support this and help Ukraine, not fall for Russian propaganda, because they will tell you 15 different reasons why they started the war, why a peace treaty will supposedly end the war, but none of this is true.

[bestfiction]

1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

With statements like this you reveal nothing but your own moral bankruptcy.

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Aristotle said:

You were critical over Zelensky refusing to accept the deal with Putin in order to save Ukrainian lives from dying but don't seem to be upset with Palestinian rulers not accepting the two-state solution in order to save even more Palestinian lives for a much smaller amount of territory? 

 

 

 

What are you talking about???? ISRAEL doesn't want a Two-State Solution, never wanted one, and never will. If any genocidal campaign has any chance of succeeding with zero pushback from the West, it'll be the purging of Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Case in point: your statement shows how you and the rest of the West don't believe Palestinians have any right to self-defense or self-determination. The only outcome is they get pushed into Egypt, and America, Canada, and Europe will just shrug their shoulders, screeching that "Israel has a right to defend itself," even though it's objectively an occupying force for 75 years.

 

18 minutes ago, bestfiction said:

With statements like this you reveal nothing but your own moral bankruptcy.

Moral bankruptcy? Because Ukrainians have been armed and supplied for almost two years while Palestinians are being left to die? The West is morally bankrupt and have proven themselves to be for decades.

[Aethereal]

10 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

What are you talking about???? ISRAEL doesn't want a Two-State Solution, never wanted one, and never will. If any genocidal campaign has any chance of succeeding with zero pushback from the West, it'll be the purging of Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Case in point: your statement shows how you and the rest of the West don't believe Palestinians have any right to self-defense or self-determination. The only outcome is they get pushed into Egypt, and America, Canada, and Europe will just shrug their shoulders, screeching that "Israel has a right to defend itself," even though it's objectively an occupying force for 75 years.

 

The two state solution was rejected by Palestinian leaders time and time again just like the Zelensky rejected the Russian offer. 

 

Do your own homework. 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 minute ago, Aristotle said:

The two state solution was rejected by Palestinian leaders time and time again just like the Zelensky rejected the Russian offer. 

 

Do your own homework. 

Why would they accept a lopsided deal that Israel was always going to renege on anyway?????????????????? Gaza and the West Bank being separated is always going to be a nonstarter. You seem to be ignoring that the Two-State Fantasy is something only America wants (which leaves Palestinians with basically nothing, and no right-of-return), and by giving "no red lines," that means what Israel wants goes and what Israel wants has always been to stake their claims on Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

 

It can be argued that Russia is equally untrustworthy as Israel, but talks were dismissed by the West out of hand, and America didn't want to take the chance that they could threaten Russia off the table. Boris Johnson and Joe Biden wanted Zelenskyy to bleed his population and throw them into the meat-grinder for their geopolitical ends, not to help Ukraine.