discussion Trump's isolationist approach risks WW3 as global conflicts heightening

[Virgos Groove]

2 minutes ago, DAP said:

One of the journalists of these articles (Trudy Rubin) encouraged American occupation in Iraq so why should we be listening to someone that has some stakes in these hegemonic wars? That's not to say Trump won't be a warhead but these foreign policy people are not credible at anything other than being rats.

Haven't you heard? NATO is a liberation movement now and Dick Cheney is the new Ghandi!

 

[IBeMe]

28 minutes ago, Onyxmage said:

Isolationism in a world that is dominated by global trade and markets is one of dumbest economic moves that any leader in the modern age can make.  

protect the sea lanes. Stop invading nations. Simple mix and fix

[SupremeGoddess]

1 hour ago, qurl said:

the biggest problem with him is that the leaders of some of the more nefarious countries in the world like Russia/China/etc are not stupid and will likely not do anything during the next 4 years of his presidency .. if we somehow are able to elect a democrat / progressive after this mess , they will wait till they're in office to provoke other/bordering countries then the republicans will be able to point and say "see , none of this happened under trump". it's all just bad, the worst effects of the next trump presidency will not be felt until years and years after his term

this is a very good point, in the 21st century we've seen how wars are mostly fought in intimate regards. lies, fake news, digital spies, bots, rigged votes and elections, political marketing

 

major countries like china and russia (and obviously US) do a lot of ****** up **** behind the scenes we have difficulties accessing it all right away 

 

i won't be scared over the escalation of a WW3 but the reality is we've been in a fragile situation for many many years now mostly starting with arab spring when the use of technology was first advanced to take advantage of war and became a militia tactic 

Edited November 8 by SupremeGoddess

[Komet]

Well, last time US was on isolationism, it emboldened extremist regimes to expand unchecked and led to the bloodiest conflict in history, so good luck everybody 

[HausOfPunk]

Love that for us

 

[Odette Violet]

Pretends to be shocked. 

 

 

Good luck for that economy his idiot followers are speaking of

Edited November 8 by Odette Violet

[Luckitty]

America needs to mind its own business

 

all the "immigration crisis" europeans keep whining about is because of america destroying and destabilizing so many countries near Europe (with the support of Europe)

and now it bit them in the ass and they STILL support America's endless wars in West Asia & North Africa.. they can't seem to realize that these wars are the reason why so many refugees are going to europe

 

I wonder if europe will ever stand up to america or will they continue being america's lapdogs 

[Luckitty]

15 minutes ago, Komet said:

Well, last time US was on isolationism, it emboldened extremist regimes to expand unchecked and led to the bloodiest conflict in history, so good luck everybody 

ironically this is how america is right now 

[Rep2000]

1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said:

I cannot take 4 more years of American and European liberals simping for NATO and Cold War jingoism. I just can't.

 

especially when NATO is needed now than ever?! Oh well, it doesn't matter now since Trump would disband it anyway. And now all western countries in Europe would start militarized themselves instead.
So instead of Cold War, we would go back to literally WWar.

[Virgos Groove]

2 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

especially when NATO is needed now than ever?!

Needed... by who? American neocons?

[Rep2000]

Just now, Virgos Groove said:

Needed... by who? American neocons?

By the literal Europe with war in their East?!
Once again America playing the world police and then create power vacuum when they're bored with it, which then create worse demons in charge . Literal rinse and repeat. How's Afghan doing right now, sis?

[Rep2000]

1 hour ago, IBeMe said:

protect the sea lanes. Stop invading nations. Simple mix and fix

You do realize this would go directly against your supposedly "isolationism", right? Some of y'all have no idea what you guys are wishing for.

[Virgos Groove]

27 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

By the literal Europe with war in their East?!

A war that the US helped provoke* by spending the last 30 years leaning into idealist liberal internationalism (as opposed to Cold War realism) and trying to place nukes at Russia's doorstep.  And, of course, Trump actively helped provoke it too by pulling out of major arms treaties, something the Dems should've used to their advantage in the election discourse, but never did because that would oblige them to acknowledge some diplomacy might be needed.

 

Merkel, Sarkozy and Macron all warned NATO expansion would end badly, and it did. Now parts of Ukraine are gone forever, the European economy is in the bin and the chances of any long-term diplomacy with Russia are nill. Oh, the wonders of NATOid foreign policy...

 

At this point, European leaders' priorities should be managing the decline and softening the landing, because the US population has very clearly rejected the Clinton doctrine of foreign policy. NATO expansion is gone out of the agenda. The Biden-Clinton-Bush era of foreign policy is over. The worst outcome will become reality: diplomacy (which should've hapenned ages ago) will happen, but it'll be in the hands of Donald Trump.

 

* Obviously, Putin deserves the majority of the blame for actually invading Ukraine, but plenty of State Dept. heads were warning as far back as 1995 that NATO expansion would not be accepted by the Russian political scene, even by the more liberal and pro-West figures. See: the "Nyet means Nyet" memorandum of 2008.

 

27 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

Once again America playing the world police and then create power vacuum when they're bored with it, which then create worse demons in charge . Literal rinse and repeat. How's Afghan doing right now, sis?

No disagreements with this part. So many problems could've been avoided if the US just minded its own business.

Edited November 8 by Virgos Groove

[Rep2000]

10 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

A war that the US helped provoke* by spending the last 30 years leaning into idealist liberal internationalism (as opposed to Cold War realism) and trying to place nukes at Russia's doorstep.  And, of course, Trump actively helped provoke it too by pulling out of major arms treaties, something the Dems should've used to their advantage in the election discourse, but never did because that would oblige them to acknowledge some diplomacy might be needed.

 

Merkel, Sarkozy and Macron all warned NATO expansion would end badly, and it did. Now parts of Ukraine are gone forever, the European economy is in the bin and the chances of any long-term diplomacy with Russia are nill. Oh, the wonders of NATOid foreign policy...

 

At this point, European leaders' priorities should be managing the decline and softening the landing, because the US population has very clearly rejected the Clinton doctrine of foreign policy. NATO expansion is gone out of the agenda. The Biden-Clinton-Bush era of foreign policy is over.

 

* Obviously, Putin deserves the majority of the blame for actually invading Ukraine, but plenty of State Dept. heads were warning as far back as 1995 that NATO expansion would not be accepted by the Russian political scene, even by the more liberal and pro-West figures. See: the "Nyet means Nyet" memorandum of 2008.

 

No disagreements with this part. So many problems could've been avoided if the US just minded its own business.

Oh, so now it's America's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine Do you even listen to yourself?
I'm not gonna even start arguing with you over antics, since we all know it's too far gone. You drank the tankie juice.

With NATO's gone, Europe would start gearing its ugly far right fascist heads even more extreme. We all bloody wish the US just mind*ED its own business over a century ago, but it's naive wishing NOW when America is too deep into all aspects of the world balance that maintains this relative "peace".
Pulling out of NATO is an inaction, which has the worse implications and consequences. A subdued Europe with America being the BBEG blamed for everything is still much better than a militarized Europe with all far right leaders making their problems everyone's problems.

Edited November 8 by Rep2000

[Virgos Groove]

Just now, Rep2000 said:

Oh, so now it's America's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine Do you even listen to yourself?

...

11 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

* Obviously, Putin deserves the majority of the blame for actually invading Ukraine

The idea that America contributed to instability in Ukraine is hardly a fringe idea. Plenty of writers, many of them major figures of the US national security state, have written about it. Or do you think Ukraine was a zen paradise until 2022, when Putin woke up on a random Tuesday and decided to invade Kiev just because?

 

It's obviously his fault for invading, but there's still a context behind it. Not even a dictator like Putin can sell something like that to his people if the situation wasn't tense already.

 

5 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

Oh, so now it's America's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine Do you even listen to yourself?
I'm not gonna even start arguing with you over antics, since we all know it's too far gone. You drank the tankie juice.

Yes, the tankie juice of... *checks notes* ...Henry Kissinger, George Kennan, Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy and William Perry? Do you actually believe the US State Department and upper echelons of 2000s European governance were filled with undercover tankies?

[Rep2000]

16 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

...

The idea that America contributed to instability in Ukraine is hardly a fringe idea. Plenty of writers, many of them major figures of the US national security state, have written about it. Or do you think Ukraine was a zen paradise until 2022, when Putin woke up on a random Tuesday and decided to invade Kiev just because?

 

It's obviously his fault for invading, but there's still a context behind it. Not even a dictator like Putin can sell something like that to his people if the situation wasn't tense already.

 

Yes, the tankie juice of... *checks notes* ...Henry Kissinger, George Kennan, Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy and William Perry? Do you actually believe the US State Department and upper echelons of 2000s European governance were filled with undercover tankies?

The concept of Russia being somewhat justified in their invasion with contexts because of America is tankie juice. Like what would a NATO expansion to Ukraine would do to Russia? Prepping to Invade Russia?
If we go with your logic, then Putin also makes the necessity of NATO valid now than ever. But somehow you instead choose to think "oh **** NATO! Disband it and maybe Russia would stop its western expansion ambition" by using outdated 2000s opinions to make the decision for 2020s. Ukraine has plenty of peace treaties with Russia and they are still invaded. So yes, a dictator like Putin can sell anything when the tankies were spreading his "Ukraine=nazis" propaganda for him in this very own forum.

Edited November 8 by Rep2000

[ohjulia]

The propaganda is too funny, fortunately more than half of America opened their eyes

Edited November 8 by ohjulia

[Virgos Groove]

Just now, Rep2000 said:

The concept of Russia being somewhat justified in their invasion

No one said this.

 

2 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

If we go with your logic, then Putin also makes the necessity of NATO valid now than ever. But somehow you instead choose to think "oh **** NATO! Disband it and maybe Russia would stop its western expansion ambition" by using outdated 2000s opinions to make the decision for 2020s.

Mind you, I never said it should be disbanded this very moment. But the expansion and foreign interventions need to be halted at the very least. And eventually, yes, I would like to see NATO go. It's an imperialist organization to project US power in Europe.

 

Also, Russia can barely handle invading Ukraine, yet you want to me to believe they're going to march on France, a country with nukes?

 

5 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

Ukraine has plenty of peace treaties with Russia and they are still invaded. So yes, a dictator like Putin can sell anything when the tankies were spreading his "Ukraine=nazis" propaganda for him in this very own forum.

What do the treaties have to do with selling the war to his people? It's two completely different issues.

[Raphy23]

1 hour ago, Rep2000 said:

The concept of Russia being somewhat justified in their invasion with contexts because of America is tankie juice. Like what would a NATO expansion to Ukraine would do to Russia? Prepping to Invade Russia?
If we go with your logic, then Putin also makes the necessity of NATO valid now than ever. But somehow you instead choose to think "oh **** NATO! Disband it and maybe Russia would stop its western expansion ambition" by using outdated 2000s opinions to make the decision for 2020s. Ukraine has plenty of peace treaties with Russia and they are still invaded. So yes, a dictator like Putin can sell anything when the tankies were spreading his "Ukraine=nazis" propaganda for him in this very own forum.

!! Russia is so obsessed with NATO when all they want is to keep Ukraine safe and keep Europe as in. NATO ain't interested in invading Russia. 
 

Unfortunately it may be too late for Ukraine, Moldova and other formerly

Soviet countries. 

Edited November 8 by Raphy23

[Rep2000]

1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said:

Mind you, I never said it should be disbanded this very moment. But the expansion and foreign interventions need to be halted at the very least. And eventually, yes, I would like to see NATO go. It's an imperialist organization to project US power in Europe.

 

Do you see the problem here? Like, at all? After everything I have said about a NATO-less Europe is a far right Europe?!
Sure, eventually I would also like complete world peace where organizations like NATO does not exist. But that is definitely not now or even in the next century. It's a necessity evil with one purpose: subdue Europe's military ambitions while America being blamed as the backyard bully. It's not a weapon, it's a dam. To keep the real evil which is a self-militarized Europe inside.

Being so against NATO just for the purity politics of its all is just causing way more harms, because as I said, America creating vacuums would lead to even worse outcomes. Isolationism would not mean well for progressive ideas in both Europe and America AT ALL. It would justify the far right ideologies all over the place.

 

Quote

Also, Russia can barely handle invading Ukraine, yet you want to me to believe they're going to march on France, a country with nukes?

This just proves how bad faith you are. When all the former Soviet countries just like Ukraine are right there
Ukraine is also a damn just like NATO, to stop Russia's expansion from spreading to the rest of the region and halting Europe from its ugly far right slumber. You think NATO is so evil now? Wait till Europe start *really* taking its militarizes seriously to replace it

Edited November 8 by Rep2000